OSSC (DIY video digitizer & scandoubler)

[marqs]

My new Tv ( Sony KD-49X7000E ) doesn't like the super famicom (1 chip-02 and 03)
I m using firmware 0.77 ...basically I can't get any image out of it and the tv tells me that the signal is not supported

I understand this is a fairly common issue and I am wondering if there's any workaround I could try

Not really, although tuning video ADC PLL parameters (via fw modification) might help in some rare cases. A proper solution would be a dejitter mod for the console, but that's not yet progressed beyond planning stages.

Speaking of SNES, a new firmware with paulb_nl's reverse LPF feature is soon finished. That should help compensating the inherent bleeding on 1st rev SNES consoles.

The firmware will also include another long-awaited feature: DIY latency tester. With a DIY sensor (basically a phototransistor in a box) connected to OSSC, it enables measurement of display latency (plus strobe length on low-persistence displays). It can be used with test pattern generated 480p or with any mode using a real console as a source. The operation principle is similar to other latency testers: a white box is rendered on one of 3 pre-selected places on otherwise black screen, and delta between output of first white pixel and sensor trigger is calculated.

[Thomago]

The firmware will also include another long-awaited feature: DIY latency tester.

Wow!

[orange808]

I realise I may be sounding like a broken record here, but why can't the OSSC ignore the line offset when deinterlacing and offer 480i -> 240p output or 480i -> 480p with scanlines?

[Sid]

@marqs - "With scanlines set to 100%, every other row (linedouble mode) should look identical to without scanlines, and every other should be pitch black."

I've experienced something different to what is quoted above......

Had a unit arrive recently. Looks good on my Panasonic plasma, and great on my Sun Microsystems (rebadged Sony) VGA CRT. Unfortunately my Pioneer plasmas reveal an issue that I've yet to read about anywhere. Testing with both a PDP-LX509 and a KRP-500M with scanlines on, 2x mode has massively desaturated colour, and 3x mode has every second line with normal colour, and every other line desaturated. Neither display supports 4x or 5x, so not able to test. Results were the same when testing 240p with both a PS2 and a Genesis. The desaturation is evident from 6% through to 100% scanline strength, with a seemingly linear drop in colour as the percentage value is increased. 480i had normal colour in both "auto" and "manual" scanline modes. With scanlines off the colour is normal.

No-one responded when it was posted previously, so I thought I'd try again. Grey scale is unaffected, it's only the colour that is compromised.

[MysticSynergy]

Brainstorm with me for a bit. I'd like to use the OSSC in conjunction with a PC CRT Monitor - ideally so I can obtain 480p through compatible PS2 games without the need to use component, since I use RGB Scart on the PS2. As much as I love the video quality of the OSSC through modern fixed pixel displays, I'm curious how it looks on a CRT. Is this possible?

I understand that the OSSC does not provide analogue video output. That being the case, to get it working on a PC CRT Monitor, would I need to use a VGA to HDMI converter? I'd plug the VGA from the CRT into the converter, then the HDMI into the OSSC correct?

Link: https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-HD ... B00879DM56

Is this ludicrous thinking? Does 240p and 480i even work at all on a PC CRT through the OSSC? Am I over complicating things or is there a more simple chain to get this to work? My head hurts trying to sort this all out! I'm having far too much fun attempting to connect the OSSC to other TV's and Monitors.

Any help would be appreciated!

[Harrumph]

I'd like to use the OSSC in conjunction with a PC CRT Monitor

Tons of people are doing exactly this, see this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=59860

[MysticSynergy]

Whoops! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Looks like I have more reading to do

[Unseen]

Testing with both a PDP-LX509 and a KRP-500M with scanlines on, 2x mode has massively desaturated colour, and 3x mode has every second line with normal colour, and every other line desaturated.

I wuould guess that those displays use 4:2:0 color processing internally, which means that they average the color of two adjacent lines to recude the amount of data they need to process. With 100% strength scanlines, the TV sees a normal saturation on the non-blanked line and the pure black on the scanline evaluates to fully unsaturated, resulting in a large saturation drop after averaging.

It could be worse, I've seen some video capture devices that appear to just drop the color information from every second line, so turning on scanlines at maximum results in a black-and-white picture.

[borti4938]

It could be worse, I've seen some video capture devices that appear to just drop the color information from every second line, so turning on scanlines at maximum results in a black-and-white picture.

For demonstration:

[Elrinth]

@Borti:
Error (410)
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[Xer Xian]

@Marqs: Thanks for the teaser on the new features of the next firmware update! I had no idea there were plans to add a latency test pattern. I'm not too sure of how it's supposed to come together (will there be a guide to DIY? Will there be an option to buy it with the OSSC?), but I'm very interested (despite already having a Leo Bodnar tester.. which imho is overpriced for what it is, and somewhat unreliable too).

---

I've played a bit with another videoprocessor from TVONE today, this time it's the 1T-PCDVI-PCDVI (terrible name, as usual for this brand). With two scaling engines, three inputs, and two outputs, I thought this machine deserved a chance (at least at the sub-100€ I paid for it all included).

As I did the last time, I tested the scaling quality with the Fantasy Zone Collection disc for the PS2, thanks to its support of 240p/480i/480p. First I hooked up the PS2 straight to the Component input of the 1T-PCDVI (using the official component cable) and set the thing to output 1080p, with these results:

240p: unsupported
480i: http://ibb.co/dBwERR
480p: http://ibb.co/bMbsD6
480i desharpened: http://ibb.co/bPSM6R
480p desharpened: http://ibb.co/nCuZRR

Quite a lot of ringing is thrown in, but it can be defeated by lowering the sharpness a bit. I think I could live with the 480i deinterlacing done by this VP - it certainly does better than the 1t-vs-626 I tested previously (link). But notice the green layer beside the vertical objects on 480p (especially bad next to the yellow thingies).. very disappointing, and the only way I found to get rid of it is by selecting 'Underscan' on the 'Scale' setting (which messes with the AR, at least with 1080p output). Next, I of course tried placing the OSSC in between the PS2 and the scaler:

480i bob-deinterlaced: flickery
480ix3 & x4: unsupported
480p passthrough: http://ibb.co/jZjq0m
Line2x480p: http://ibb.co/eDpCD6
Line4x240p: http://ibb.co/nwYHfm
Line5x240p: http://ibb.co/etkV0m

Line5x is bigger than the others because the 'Scale' setting was set to 'Full' instead of 'Panscan' as it was on all the others modes (the VP only supports image size adjustment for the VGA input.. 'Panscan' was the closest it got to a 4:3 AR over 1080p). 480p and Line2x480p are nearly identical, and less sharp than even de-sharpened 480p - no sharpness setting to be found for DVI sources - but at least the chroma shift is not there anymore. The colors are quite different as well, but at least those can be configured at will. I didn't test VGA sources yet. 720p to 1080p scaling adds about 1 frame of lag.

TL;DR - the 1T-PCDVI can 'standardize' the OSSC at the cost of about 1 frame of lag. It's decent with 480i (still have to measure deinterlacing lag though) and not that great with 480p (at least over component and DVI), even line-doubled. No full picture size adjustments for DVI and Component is also a big let-down.

[eric90000]

Just rearranged my console setup and now my DVI to HDMI cable and all my audio cables are too short . If I upgraded to the 1.6 OSSC, I'd only have to buy a single HDMI cable and that's it

To anyone who has tried both: is it worth the upgrade?! I wonder will there be an even newer model down the line?....

[Sid]

Testing with both a PDP-LX509 and a KRP-500M with scanlines on, 2x mode has massively desaturated colour, and 3x mode has every second line with normal colour, and every other line desaturated.

I wuould guess that those displays use 4:2:0 color processing internally, which means that they average the color of two adjacent lines to recude the amount of data they need to process. With 100% strength scanlines, the TV sees a normal saturation on the non-blanked line and the pure black on the scanline evaluates to fully unsaturated, resulting in a large saturation drop after averaging.

Thank you for the response - but damn.

I'm going to muck around with VGA input with the Pioneers. 4x is supported, and it doesn't have the colour issue.

[Xer Xian]

So, I've tested out yet another TVONE video processor.. this time it's an analog-in, anologue-out machine (named 1T-C2-400), which makes it rather inconvenient to pair with an OSSC - but it could still make sense to have for users of VGA monitors that are looking for something better than 480i bob deinterlacing. Also, the 1T-C2-750 has DVI-I input and output and has the same scaling engine, so there's that.

This VP employs a proprietary scaling engine that is declared to sample at full chroma resolution (4:4:4) and has fully configurable image size/zoom and even image mirroring and flipping (but only upside-down, so not good for yoko-tate). Due to it having only analogue in and out, I had to place the OSSC after the VP so I could only test straight 480i and 480p from the PS2 (through a component to vga/d-sub adapter) upscaled to 1080p:

480i: http://ibb.co/goFDO6
480p: http://ibb.co/kZW9wR
480i (black level at 7.5IRE): http://ibb.co/e41bbR
480p (black level at 7.5IRE): http://ibb.co/eYdBAm

I compared the results with the 1T-PCDVI above and, while 480i deinterlacing is of more or less similar quality (colors are a bit dull, image is ringing-free but softer), 480p upscaling is certainly better - very sharp with no apparent artifacts. It was so good that I decided to capture a short vid from a DC to compare it with the Crystalio II, which has notoriously good handling of this signal. And this is when I discovered that this TVONE machine is utterly useless - the scrolling is so, so jerky it looked like I was playing the PAL version of Ikaruga The CII doesn't have frame locking either, but still the scrolling is so even and fluid I can't tell there's anything wrong with it.

That's a shame, since the TVONE scaling is indeed quite good. It still appears to mess up the colors a bit with RGBHV as well but it's very sharp with no ringing - here's a screen print of a frame from the videos being played on my PC:

CII: http://ibb.co/kZJHi6
TVONE: http://ibb.co/nt0zVm

(I can upload the videos if anyone's interested - but they were captured with an Avermedia LGP2 in PC-free mode, so they definitely aren't reference quality)

TL;DR - another disappointement from TVONE - this one upscales very well but is useless for any scrolling game. Other VPs in the same family do have a genlock/frm.lock option so they might be worth it (I don't know if that's the case for the 1T-C2-750)

[orange808]

The TVOne PC software literally lets you program almost any output timings you want from the TVOne. The Corio 2 doesn't care if you break something; there are no limits or fail safe precautions. Big potential there.

There is no frame lock between input and output, but that's hardly uncommon among most video processors. If you are getting massive studdering, you aren't programming the output frame rate to match the input. Frame rate conversion on the TVOne is no worse than any other machine that doesn't offer a "frame lock" option--and the Corio 2 is programmable enough to get timings very close to the source.

You also didn't mention using the box to generate exact timings of multiple consoles or reproduce OSSC output timings--for a mobile test pattern generator that can mimick sources.

I also noticed you never bothered to test downscaling or to experiment with deinterlacing options--like handling how the fields get drawn. Maybe getting rid of the field offset and using a simple field weave on a 480i source would have an advantage?

I agree that TVOne machines aren't a replacement for a DVDO upscaler as an OSSC partner, but they do have some practical applications.

[LK4O4]

My OSSC arrived two days ago! Here's my experience so far with a Samsung KS8000 (KS7000 in EU):

When outputting normal resolutions such as 480p and 720p, the OSSC works wonderfully. The KS8000 treats both like a normal 480p or 720p signal, and even auto-switches to 4:3 aspect when displaying bob-ed 480i content and auto-switches back to 16:9 aspect when displaying 240p in Line3x "General 4:3". So yeah, this is a pretty fantastic experience! (Note: I've been testing with a Genesis and a Saturn.)

However, any of the more weird resolutions (such as 960p) kick the TV into "PC" mode, where all resolutions always stretch to the full width of the screen unless you manually go into the TV's settings at set it to display at 4:3. This is especially weird for Saturn games that switch between 240p and 480i because 240p Line3x "Generic 4:3" has the correct aspect ratio and 2x(bob) 480i has a stretched aspect ratio. This can be solved by manually setting the TV's aspect ratio to 4:3 and setting the OSSC's 240p Line3x to "Generic 16:9" so that everything gets squished by the TV to the same aspect ratio, but it's not ideal.

TLDR:
On a KS8000, you can avoid switching into "PC" mode by only using Line2x or Line3x for 240p content and only using 2x(bob) or passthru for 480i content, which is what I'd recommend. Line3x for 240p content looks great!

Wishlist:
I'd love any mode that could display a 480i signal in a similar way to how Line3x "Generic 4:3" works so games that switch between 240p and 480i can have the same aspect ratio in widescreen (even if the underlying resolutions are completely different).

The OSSC is great and thank you so much for all your work!

[Xer Xian]

The TVOne PC software literally lets you program almost any output timings you want from the TVOne. The Corio 2 doesn't care if you break something; there are no limits or fail safe precautions. Big potential there.

Sure, I noticed that the 'Adjust resolutions' menu gives you full control of the signal timings and that you can create additional resolution pre-sets by interfacing the thing to a PC to use their software. I may have given away my Serial to USB adapter a bit too soon to try that out though I suppose it lets you downscale to 240p no problem? That's great to know indeed.

As for the stuttering not being an inherent fault of the device - I don't know, I'm quite sure I set it to output [email protected] (which thankfully was a pre-set resolution) when I captured a sample. I will double check this in the next few days. I'd be happy to be wrong.

[orange808]

As for the stuttering not being an inherent fault of the device - I don't know, I'm quite sure I set it to output [email protected] (which thankfully was a pre-set resolution) when I captured a sample. I will double check this in the next few days. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Any time you have a processor that always performs internal frame rate conversion, there will be some degree of studder--and that can vary depending on the input.

It's there and it's a drawback, but I wouldn't say it's any worse than any other machine I own that performs decent frame rate conversion--and the "deal breaker" factor depends on how anal we want to be about it.

There's no "good" frame rate conversion, but this machine certainly doesn't absolutely mangle the output with frame rate processing like some other inferior processors will.

[Xer Xian]

It's quite evident - here's a short comparison:

TVONE: https://vimeo.com/240233640
CII: https://vimeo.com/240234816

But again - will test it again some other time. Even if unlikely, I'd be glad if It was me setting something wrong.

(to anyone that opens the videos: the issue mainly affects the background scrolling. If the enemies' movements are very jerky it must be due to limited bandwidth or PC specs on your part)

[orange808]

It's quite evident - here's a short comparison:

TVONE: https://vimeo.com/240233640
CII: https://vimeo.com/240234816

But again - will test it again some other time. Even if unlikely, I'd be glad if It was me setting something wrong.

(to anyone that opens the videos: the issue mainly affects the background scrolling. If the enemies' movements are very jerky it must be due to limited bandwidth or PC specs on your part)

That's definitely ugly.

I don't have the video capture equipment to share, but I get better results when downscaling with the one unit I have kept around (c2-1250). I also never use the unit for anything but downscaling and test patterns.

If I get around to it, I'll try upscaling with it again. The unit isn't hooked into the matrix switch at the moment, so it will require some work.

[Bahn Yuki]

https://youtu.be/E_rwkSuD9OM


Once again the OSSC is awesome.

[nissling]

Got my OSSC yesterday and one thing I certainly didn't expect is how well it handles DOS games. Or well, to a certain point at least. It seems like it regonizes 400p as 384p, making some lines on the top and bottom get wasted. Kind of a bummer that you cannot change that, but otherwise I'm extremely impressed by how good these old PC games look when linedoubled to 768p. My OLED (55EG910) recognizes the signal as 768p and displays the framerate properly (70Hz) with no stutter nor judder. Even when not scaled integer to 1080p, scanlines look fantastic in 768p. Colors really pop and sharpness is just fantastic. I'm using an old Dell Dimension with an Intel Pentium 4 and GeForce 3 Ti 200, running Windows 98SE.

I've lots of things to say about the OSSC but I had no idea that it could handle old PC games this good. I've never seen Doom look this freaking good.

[Guspaz]

Could you not tweak the backporch/active settings to get more lines?

[Seraphic]

Just received my OSSC 1.6 and got to setting it up with my Crystalio II VPS 3800 along with a NTSC PS2 Slim and shielded SCART cable. As others have reported, the CII has no issues accepting anything and everything even up to line 5x. One thing I noticed is the OSSC is displaying PAL inputs on its screen even though I am using NTSC console. For example RGsB 480p showing as 525p on OSSC screen, but my CII is showing the OSSC is sending it 480p. Is that normal? Also, I was wondering if other people with CII's are leaving the input auto detect color space as 16-235 or manually switching it to 0-255? Doesn't seem to auto detect it properly.

Still in discovery mode as far as settings go, but very happy so far!

[Harrumph]

525 is the total amount of lines for a 480i/p signal.

[Xer Xian]

Also, I was wondering if other people with CII's are leaving the input auto detect color space as 16-235 or manually switching it to 0-255? Doesn't seem to auto detect it properly.

Uh, I can't say I've ever paid attention to that.

If the OSSC output is all that your CII ever gets, you can make do without auto detection since the OSSC always outputs full-range RGB. I think the same should be true for the RGB output of every console (not sure about component or PAL/NTSC).

If you use the CII for movie material as well, you may want to create different input and/or video profiles for your sources.

[Seraphic]

Also, I was wondering if other people with CII's are leaving the input auto detect color space as 16-235 or manually switching it to 0-255? Doesn't seem to auto detect it properly.

Uh, I can't say I've ever paid attention to that.

If the OSSC output is all that your CII ever gets, you can make do without auto detection since the OSSC always outputs full-range RGB. I think the same should be true for the RGB output of every console (not sure about component or PAL/NTSC).

If you use the CII for movie material as well, you may want to create different input and/or video profiles for your sources.

Use my CII for games only and I have my 73" DLP TV set to "PC" input over HDMI and if I leave CII's color space input as 16-235 but set the color space output as 0-255, the colors look more vibrant.
However, they also seem to have crushed blacks. Could anyone else confirm?

No direct capture possible, but click for full screen.
240p PS1 game on PS2 Slim with 6% scanlines and 5x scaling. So good!

[Xer Xian]

Use my CII for games only and I have my 73" DLP TV set to "PC" input over HDMI and if I leave CII's color space input as 16-235 but set the color space output as 0-255, the colors look more vibrant.
However, they also seem to have crushed blacks. Could anyone else confirm?

Of course you have crushed blacks (and whites) - with that configuration you are telling the CII to clip everything under 16 and over 235. You're probably getting a slightly more contrasted image as a result of re-mapping a clipped 16-235 range back to 0-255 and maybe rounding errors, but that's not the right way to adjust the contrast. In general you always want to match the signal data range in your video chain (this is a good read on limited vs full range).

About your screenshot - I find it strange that the CII is reporting 59.83Hz as input refresh rate. The PS1 should output at 59.94Hz and the OSSC doesn't process that. As for the scanlines - is it because they're faint or are they slightly misaligned? Are they still like that with different combinations of line multiplication and CII's output resolution?

[Fudoh]

The PS1 should output at 59.94Hz

I don't think that there's any 240p source with a straight 59.94Hz output.

[Xer Xian]

Thanks Fudoh - I didn't know 240p had a slightly different refresh. I guess that's another reason why 240p isn't universally accepted by 480i-compatible TVs/scalers.