Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Sumez]

Btw let's clear up some confusion. I kind of like how this thread generally stays clear of tech talk, but since this is out there, I figure I should address it.

To be honest, I'm not really sure what sprite multiplexing is, but as far as I can tell it's a method to go beyond the hard sprite limit by altering some data in memory at specific times using well timed code, something that was obviouly common on systems like the Atari 2600 etc. which was hard wired to just draw two paddles and a ball.
Stuff like that is usually NOT possible on the NES, as any access to the video memory outside of vblank (the short period between frames) will result in unpredictable (and sadly unusable) glitches. You can get away with some simple stuff like bank switching and changing the scroll value, but the object (sprite) memory is in the no-touchy zone. I believe the NES PPU chip already does something similar to sprite multiplexing by its hardware design in order to even produce as many sprites as it does, which is why you can't push it any further, but I don't know the details on this.

The only option you have as a game designer (aside from limiting your number of sprites) is what's commonly known as sprite cycling, or simply just "flickering". There's absolutely nothing fancy to this, it's just a question of writing the sprites to memory in a different each frame. So really that's what Holy Diver lacks. Another game known for having this issue is Double Dragon.

Depending on how your game code works, this is most likely a really simple thing to add (at least when just using the most basic algorithm most games do), but trying to hack it into an already assembled game might be quite a bit of work depending on how structured its code is. Of course, people have been making NES hacks that are around one thousand times more advanced. My only claim to fame is a Game Genie code that lets you play NES Tetris in invisible mode similar to TGM :3

[BIL]

Technical discussion is always welcome here - knowledge is power, as they say.

[kitten]

i have had multiplexing (what appears to be incorrectly) described to me as setting priority on sprite cycling, e.g. when game will begin flickering certain things to avoid them going completely without being displayed. sorry for the confusion!

[trap15]

Sprite cycling is not-uncommonly referred to as multiplexing. Technically an incorrect use, but the effect is similar.

[__SKYe]

Sprite cycling is not-uncommonly referred to as multiplexing. Technically an incorrect use, but the effect is similar.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't traditional sprite multiplexing, work by writing to specific registers mid-scanline to trick the sprite raster into drawing more copies of a sprite? Wasn't it also restricted to multiple copies of the same sprite?

On another note, I always had the idea that the NES performed sprite cycling in hardware, but I've written a small program that tells me otherwise. Cycling has to be done in software.

Anyway, onto another news, I've been playing Ninja-kun: Majou No Bouken (FC), which is a port of the arcade game of the same name, originally developed by UPL (the FC port was developed by Jaleco).
I hadn't played this game in a long, long time, and only recently remembered to try it again.
So far, I've managed to reach Stage 8.

It has somewhat *unique* controls (for example, to jump up, you must be pressing either left or right as you jump. Pressing only the jump button, will make the character fall through the floor to the bottom platform), which are pretty weird at first, but with a bit of practice, they become quite natural.
It kind of reminds me of Yie-Ar Kung FU (FC), in that when you first start playing, it feels quite odd, but after a while, it becomes very fun to play (and control).

My only claim to fame is a Game Genie code that lets you play NES Tetris in invisible mode similar to TGM :3

That is pretty damn cool.

[BIL]

Tiredpost: hey kitten, yeah, Batman TAS (GB) is very cool! Obvious expertise on display here. The walljumping feels superb. Only played past the first boss and a bit into Robin's st2 segment, will definitely check back tomorrow. Joker's a surprisingly well-designed first boss, loved the balance of cornering him without getting blasted. Kinda cute how he'll run away if you're too aggressive, haha.

Have to say, the mild grappling-augmented stealth was reminding me of a "Ninja Five-O Zero" to the point I had a quick look for any shared staff (at least a few ex-Konami devs from the 16-bit days worked on N50 at Hudson). Grappling onto a patrolling gunman's perch, letting him pass by then pulling up and socking him from behind is similarly gratifying. The slightly open-plan multidirectionally-scrolling levels ring a bell too. Combat and climbing themselves both remind me more of Kage (of the Ninja, FC). Decidedly basic but satisfyingly so, with snappily economical animation and dead-on colllision.

Very smart of the devs going with no contact damage on enemies, instead having them lash out aggressively when you're loitering within range - nicely emulates FC Batman '89's walljump-launched ledge invasions.

I'd be interested in hearing from Ghegs on this, given he's reviewed Sunsoft's second GB Batman quite extensively in this thread. Not sure if you've mentioned this one before Ghegs, but if not I suspect you'd enjoy it too.

Batman's knee-lifting run is a tad mincing but his punch delivers! After replaying Dynamite Batman, aka Gun Crazy Batman, aka Double Career-Ending Red Card Horror Tackle Batman, goddamn does it feel good to just sock baddies in the face again. Not to knock DB's slide kick, it's just in the wrong game.

[kitten]

ah, BIL, i'm so glad you're enjoying it so far

all of the enemies in that game have unique behaviors! they're all very accurate henchmen to their appropriate boss, in that way. the scarecrow's goons are really paranoid and notice you a bit easier than other enemies, for example (their little movement routine has them snapping back and forth at the end of their patrol, which helps relay this). this sounds like some sort of next-generation shit that could be easily exploited or not work into the game in an interesting way, but it retains a snappy action feel and these little differences are really subtle-but-effective. very light stealth action!

there's really excellent use of contrast in the art in the game, too, imho the best the game boy ever saw. great art, great atmosphere - really feels like they absolutely loved the property and nailed the feeling. you already read my article, you probably know my praise ;( it's just easy for me to gush about this one.

one of my only big faults with it is that most of the boss fights are little too easy. they're real tough on your first approach, but they're kind of like puzzles and become bit too routine when you've gotten them figured out. some of the later bosses stay tough even when you've got the routine down (the final boss is always tense, for me, and so is the penguin), but a few early on can feel a bit like you're going through the motions after a while.

my personal favorite stage is probably catwoman's - takes place around christmas time and has some excellent little bits of storytelling packed into its level design. no enemies, just bells set-up that thematically relay that she's constantly a step ahead of you, trying to sabotage you with traps (the bells themselves don't actually trigger anything, they're there just for some really cute theming). her boss fight is very gimmick!-esque, too. her pattern is very reactive to how you're spacing, and she's one of the toughest bosses to initially get down.

it is by far my favorite batman game, and i think the only one that gets a 4/4 star rating. i like each of sunsoft's batman games (even the genesis batman movie game) in some way or another, but this little team at konami outdid them all, imho.

gb return of the joker feels very obviously unfinished - i strongly feel as if sunsoft had to abruptly rush this one out of the door to deal with losing the batman license. some of the animations don't feel quite right (move left to right in a rhythm with batman and it feels as if portions of his sprite are shifting shape faster than the others), there's only one enemy type in several stages, the stage select music is ripped from rockman 3 (probably a placeholder the composer was using during development), etc. it's neat and something i feel COULD have been if capitalized on, but it's a mess, as is. some really stressful and hard-to-understand bosses in that one.

[Ghegs]

I'd be interested in hearing from Ghegs on this, given he's reviewed Sunsoft's second GB Batman quite extensively in this thread. Not sure if you've mentioned this one before Ghegs, but if not I suspect you'd enjoy it too.

I actually own Batman TAS! Bought it alongside with Ninja Ryukenden GB and the second Batman GB, if I recall. But I haven't actually played it much at all. I'll have to rectify the situation.

[kitten]

wowsers, i bet golden axe. skye is going to be disappointed in me going back to beat an old belt-scroller and making it this instead of final fight, but it is what it is

i got to where i could get through the majority of the game on a single credit, and generally either didn't continue or had just continued before getting to the final boss. and then... the final boss would eat all my lives and credits, posthaste. man, this final boss is some serious, outrageous bullshit. has two completely unkillable skeleton henchmen and every time he hits you, he casts magic and gets to do extra damage for free. beating him requires getting pretty good at banging out double-tap inputs with high precision and then nailing him with the high-jump attack repeatedly. his AI (as well as many enemies) acts weird at the bottom of the screen, and a huge part of the game seemed to just be exploiting that and other weird enemy behaviors.

i feel like i could probably 1cc this within just a few more attempts, but i don't terribly enjoy playing it and opted not to. the 1cc would mostly come down to getting the boss into a corner really quickly and then praying i hit all my double-taps quickly enough (it's hard to do this on a genesis controller - it's easy to accidentally double tap or time it just a bit wrong before the jumps) to chain him with that one jumping attack and not have one of his henchmen interrupt me, which, yawnnnn. if this game ended at death adder, i would probably consider it decent, instead it's just scraping "okay." maybe i'd like the arcade version more, honestly! seems the same, but lacks said heinously awful final boss. for the record, i was playing on default health settings, and did not up my health to 5 in the options for my clear (i had been trying it with that on a couple of runs and felt it was too cheesy).

[Blinge]

I tried Golden Axe II a while back, it was like pulling teeth. I just didn't get it maaaaan
Watched a clear video too, looks like the whole game depends on dashing into everything to cheese it.

Great tune though https://youtu.be/vDA0YAvgJfs

My no death recording for Plague Knight is going terribly. I don't know how you guys can get so consistent with your no misses; as soon as I'm recording my suck factor seems to multiply.
What doesn't help his explosive movement and chucking myself into pits. (but its so fun..)
I guess the usual flow of the game is to suck it up and keep going and keep bombin 'n' splodin, not restart the whole thing after a small mistake.

Edit: btw Kitten nice King's Field II sig
Melenat is surely paradise.

[BIL]

I'm a bit prone to Restart Frenzy when recording gameplay. I generally won't upload unless I can no-miss something (no delusions of "superplay..." more "basic competence play"), and I'm naturally rather lazy, so it's already quite rare that I'll bother. When I actually do start recording a run, I try to be reasonable on the ol' reset button.

Basically, as cliche as it sounds, don't sweat the small stuff. As long as you keep progressing at a consistent clip, nobody will care if you take bumps here or there, or fail to quite pull off some 1337 trick. Watchability is the thing. If you get held up for ten minutes on a jump that should take seconds, yeah, then I'd restart.

[__SKYe]

My no death recording for Plague Knight is going terribly. I don't know how you guys can get so consistent with your no misses; as soon as I'm recording my suck factor seems to multiply.

Like BIL says, it's better to not try to iron out the little kins inyour runs. Trying to be absolutely perfect in everything (and restarting otherwise), will just make you go mad.
I'd also wager that, if you manage to pull the 1LC, even with the little mistakes, no one (especially no one here) is going to think you are any less of a player, because, you got the 1LC after all.

The nervousness when recording a good run is undeniable, though.

wowsers, i bet golden axe. skye is going to be disappointed in me going back to beat an old belt-scroller and making it this instead of final fight, but it is what it is

Not at all, that's one I also really should start playing again.

By the way, since we're on the beat-em-up topic, you mentioned that you beat Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun (FC) on Level-2 before, and I'm wondering what strategy you used to do it.
I've gotten the 1LC on Level-1, and also managed to get to Stage 4 on 1 life on my first try on Level 2, only to lose all 3 lives there due to time out.

Here's a nice little GIF of pretty much what I do the entire game (and got me the 1LC):



My strategy isn't exactly pretty, and I'd say leads to excessive time wasting, which is a killer on Level-2, because enemies have inflated HP, but so far I've yet to find another reliable strategy. I considered the pin-down punch, but with 3 enemies onscreen, I thought it might be too dangerous. I still have to experiment more.

The bosses stay pretty much as hard as they were (perhaps they do more damage?), but it's amusing that time becomes your greatest enemy on higher difficulties.
And even though I couldn't clear it, I thought it was nice that the higher difficulty required (at least partially) a change in strategy, making for a different playstyle than usual. I appreciate when harder difficulty levels do more than just ramp up the damage/enemy HP.

On another note, this kind of (visually) boring strategy, is precisely the reason I didn't post a clip of it on Youtube. I honestly don't think this is too amusing to watch.
On the other hand, when playing, it is quite fun and tense, even if it appears otherwise, as a slight mess up (especially against Misuzu, and I'd wager, the final boss (Sabu). I haven't taken a single hit from him in all my runs, but I hear he kills you in 1 hit?).

I guess there really are games that, although fun to play, don't translate that 'funness' into a video too well.

NOTE: Incidentally, I've mastered the fine art of making GIFs that play properly.

[FinalBaton]

as soon as I'm recording my suck factor seems to multiply.

Don't worry, this is normal

I'm a bit prone to Restart Frenzy when recording gameplay. I generally won't upload unless I can no-miss something

Man you're speaking to the choir here. Not only do I aim for no death runs everytime, but sometimes I'll restart the game if I feel that my performance on the early levels isn't impressive enough >_> I really need to stop doing that, lol

In Ninja Gaiden for example, not only would I restart the game if I took a single hit before stage 4-1, but I would also restart if I felt I didn't handle 1-1 gracefully. Yeahhhhh, I think I might have a little OCD going on But that's an extreme case though, as I'm obssessed with Ninja Gaiden and DEMAND from myself tight and elegant runs.
Next 1LC I'll be working on is Contra Hard Corps. This is gonna be a though one, but I'm sure I can manage to pull it off. I've already made it to 2/3 the game without dying(AKA taking a hit) so if I keep working at it I should be able to do it

wowsers, i bet golden axe.

believe it or not I have yet to play any of the Golden Axe games I want to get around to it though, as I'm a huge Sega fan

[Blinge]

Like BIL says, it's better to not try to iron out the little kins inyour runs. Trying to be absolutely perfect in everything (and restarting otherwise), will just make you go mad.

Haha, I'm not trying to iron out little kinks, It's ironing out deaths thats the problem

Thought I was shithot with plague knight but maybe not - propeller knight is having no problem chucking me in the dumpster in his arena.

[BIL]

NOTE: Incidentally, I've mastered the fine art of making GIFs that play properly.

Looking good! For my stuff I put an emulator-written AVI through Instagiffer, works pretty nice even on my potato machine. Not sure of your method, but that GIF looks as good as anything I could do.

Man you're speaking to the choir here. Not only do I aim for no death runs everytime, but sometimes I'll restart the game if I feel that my performance on the early levels isn't impressive enough >_> I really need to stop doing that, lol

Definitely my experience - if I sense that restart tailspin coming on, I'll usually take a break or even call it a day entirely. As intense as Metal Storm's loop was to no-miss, I think I secretly like how it'll just fucking kill you for more than a handful of consecutive errors. Takes the responsibility of restarting out of my hands, y'know?

In Ninja Gaiden for example, not only would I restart the game if I took a single hit before stage 4-1, but I would also restart if I felt I didn't handle 1-1 gracefully. Yeahhhhh, I think I might have a little OCD going on But that's an extreme case though, as I'm obssessed with Ninja Gaiden and DEMAND from myself tight and elegant runs.

Incidentally, have you played Ninja Crusaders (FC)? I finally gained an appreciation of it this month, along with the other multi-year inmate of my shortlist, Dynamite Batman. Where DB is basically a very primitive version of Alien Soldier's sidescroller component (I'll elaborate on this over the weekend), NC is kinda the Metal Storm of NG-styled action. One hit = dead. However the designers were very careful about designing the game around this - there's reassuringly little in the way of unreactable ambushes. With NG's lifebar it'd be a total cakewalk, but as an instant killer it's pretty satisfying to sweep through with that classic quick, methodical pace.

Next 1LC I'll be working on is Contra Hard Corps. This is gonna be a though one, but I'm sure I can manage to pull it off. I've already made it to 2/3 the game without dying(AKA taking a hit) so if I keep working at it I should be able to do it

I think you'll manage just fine. Out of curiosity, which characters and routes are you using? There's a fair bit of variance, but either way, I don't think any of them compare to going damageless through NG1.

[__SKYe]

Haha, I'm not trying to iron out little kinks, It's ironing out deaths thats the problem

Haha, alright, that's a different problem altogether then.

Looking good! For my stuff I put an emulator-written AVI through Instagiffer, works pretty nice even on my potato machine. Not sure of your method, but that GIF looks as good as anything I could do.

Yeah, I also record a movie in the emulator, then convert it to AVI, and convert that to a GIF using an AVI2GIF program I downloaded. The problem with my previous GIFs, apparently, was using too many frames/too little delay between frames, which made it run poorly.
I researched the issue, and apparently setting the delay anywhere lower than 20ms, will make that happen. So I just converted every other frame of the AVI (30 frames instead of the full 60), and set the delay to 33ms (30FPS), and voilà.

Incidentally, have you played Ninja Crusaders (FC)?

Yeah, from what I remember playing (first 2~3 stages, I think), it is a pretty nice game.
I like the fast pace it has, and also the multiple weapons, and associated animal transformations. I especially enjoy that each weapon requires a different playstyle, precisely because of the 1Hit-KO (long range but weak vs short range but brutal).
I used to own this game a long time ago, when I was a kid, and the thing I most distinctly (and fondly) remember, was the first boss.
That menacing approach used to tense up, the younger me, like hell.

Man you're speaking to the choir here. Not only do I aim for no death runs everytime, but sometimes I'll restart the game if I feel that my performance on the early levels isn't impressive enough >_> I really need to stop doing that, lol

The worse is when I make little mistakes on the first few stages, but don't feel like restarting, and throughout the run I always have that feeling of "this run isn't gonna amount to anything, but whatever...", and still keep playing.
And then, such a run ends up being the 1CC/1LC, and I can't help being bummed over those little, silly mistakes I made earlier, that wouldn't have happened if only I had restarted the run.
Conversely, I would say that perhaps, this feeling of "this run isn't gonna cut it" is what lowers the nerves, and sometimes allows me to perform (slightly) better throughout.
But when the last stage(s) pop up, it's all the same.

[FinalBaton]

Incidentally, have you played Ninja Crusaders (FC)? I finally gained an appreciation of it this month, along with the other multi-year inmate of my shortlist, Dynamite Batman. Where DB is basically a very primitive version of Alien Soldier's sidescroller component (I'll elaborate on this over the weekend), NC is kinda the Metal Storm of NG-styled action. One hit = dead. However the designers were very careful about designing the game around this - there's reassuringly little in the way of unreactable ambushes. With NG's lifebar it'd be a total cakewalk, but as an instant killer it's pretty satisfying to sweep through with that classic quick, methodical pace.

No, I've never tried that one! Now you've piqued my interest for sure, I wanna give the game a go

Out of curiosity, which characters and routes are you using?

I haven't experimented much, I just go with the character I wanna play as (Sheena) and take the decisions that make the better story, that my gut tells me are right (follow dead-eyed Joe -> don't surrender to Col. Bahamut)

EDIT : I searched for a diagram of the routes, and I just learned that there's a secret stage (stage 4 S). Wow!
btw my route is the one to "END B"

The worse is when I make little mistakes on the first few stages, but don't feel like restarting, and throughout the run I always have that feeling of "this run isn't gonna amount to anything, but whatever...", and still keep playing.
And then, such a run ends up being the 1CC/1LC, and I can't help being bummed over those little, silly mistakes I made earlier, that wouldn't have happened if only I had restarted the run.
Conversely, I would say that perhaps, this feeling of "this run isn't gonna cut it" is what lowers the nerves, and sometimes allows me to perform (slightly) better throughout.
But when the last stage(s) pop up, it's all the same.

Oh man I relate to this soooooo much XD whenever I keep going despite a few unsatisfactory bits early on, my state of mind DEFINITELY gets different. As you say, I enter "no regerts" mode. And then I think that my 1LC could have been so much better and have regrets, lol. But as you say, that state of mind probs help calming the nerves. But still, a trve warrior should be able to calm his nerves even on a great run, right?

[__SKYe]

But still, a trve warrior should be able to calm his nerves even on a great run, right?

That's what we'd all want to believe.
But the truth is, regardless of your experience with the game (whatever it may be), when you're on the verge of clearing whatever goal you set to clear, the nerves always seem to find their way in.

[BIL]

No, I've never tried that one! Now you've piqued my interest for sure, I wanna give the game a go

It's more solid than spectacular - aesthetically very plain, action is fairly basic, but the pace is quick and collision, control and camera are ultra-tight. Definitely worth a try for hardcore NG fans who like to really master those games.

For the love of god, be sure to get the chain and use its animal transformation (just hold B) in the water stages (grab one on the way out of stage 1-1)! Without it they're a drag. With it, they take on an almost Defender-like shmuppy zip. Real Lobster Simulator.

[kitten]

Edit: btw Kitten nice King's Field II sig
Melenat is surely paradise.

first time someone's recognized it and mentioned so without me explaining what it was

i mentioned several pages back, but it's from a time where my ps1 loaded the wrong textures for every area and it looked weird/spooky/enchanting as hell. i took a few pictures and ended up really falling in love with this one, where i talked to an npc while facing the "wrong" direction and having her look away and say that. there was also some really cool stuff like see-through walls and lava all over the fountain room.

Like BIL says, it's better to not try to iron out the little kins inyour runs. Trying to be absolutely perfect in everything (and restarting otherwise), will just make you go mad.
I'd also wager that, if you manage to pull the 1LC, even with the little mistakes, no one (especially no one here) is going to think you are any less of a player, because, you got the 1LC after all.

imo mistakes tend to make a run more authentic, too. the reality is that most one life clears are a bit dirty and not superbly optimal play, and they should show a bit of your honest playing ability/identity and not look like a 100% scripted performance. i've noticed when people try to go for super perfect play for action games, they either have an incredibly small area of expertise narrowing down to just a few games or their play isn't actually perfect - it's full of hesitation (but less hits/mistakes) and the performance anxiety becomes palpable. the former is typically not worth it and the latter is agonizing to watch.

Not at all, that's one I also really should start playing again.

ever finish it up? there is so, so much learning to bait the AI so that you can reliably hit them with the running jump attack (the downward plunge). there's very rare exception to enemies attacking faster than you can vertically walk past their face, too, so there's a lot of goofiness to baiting whiffs. i realize golden axe ain't exactly hailed as a great game, but playing it felt like about everything i don't much like in so, so many beat 'em ups. maximally optimal play (and sometimes even necessary play for certain bosses) just feels like super weird ai routine abuse. or, as sharc put it, "some weird dance of nonsense moves that happens to mess wit hthe AI in a way that lets you dunk on them." so much of the genre feels like this, to me.

By the way, since we're on the beat-em-up topic, you mentioned that you beat Nekketsu Kouha Kunio-kun (FC) on Level-2 before, and I'm wondering what strategy you used to do it.
I've gotten the 1LC on Level-1, and also managed to get to Stage 4 on 1 life on my first try on Level 2, only to lose all 3 lives there due to time out.

Here's a nice little GIF of pretty much what I do the entire game (and got me the 1LC):

iirc that is indeed the best way to fight that enemy. once she's on low enough health, you can successfully get on top of her and beat her face to total pulp, though, at least i'm pretty sure. you absolutely, abso-lutely need to get used to doing that face-pulpifying pin, though. it's a huge part of the game. not just necessary in some instances but really fun to do, as well. tons of damage, very quick. being unable to 100% reliably do that running attack when i need to is why i could never beat the third loop. you've got to fight through a room of six of the game's 2nd boss, and you basically need to be able to belt that attack out, left-to-right, one enemy to the next, with perfect, rapid precision to not time-out.

double-tapping that many times with that kind of speed and accuracy ends up being a demanding input. i'd be able to do this if it weren't so demanding in that facet! i've got the timing and idea down, i just can't get my double taps all in order. i've noticed i hold a controller weird whenever i'm double-tapping a lot in a game, too - my ring finger on my right hand always feels weird/achey for days whenever i do it intensively in a game. really weird, huh? i guess it's how i grip to make sure the controller stays flat for double-taps to be read properly? *shrugs* anyway, once you're proficient at the game, you'll never time out on loop 2. honestly, loop 2 is probably where i prefer for the difficulty of the game to be at, feels just right - loop 3 feels overboard.

honestly, being able to play as dirty as enemies do (or even dirtier) is a huge part of why i like few technos beat 'em ups. no bullshit honor code, you fuck these people up while they're on the floor, toss off 'em off cliffs, etc. i've always been deeply aggravated by beat 'em ups where an enemy or boss is essentially invincible when knocked down and will get free attacks on you if you're hovering their body, waiting for them to get up. let me kick some ribs, squash some face - these guys certainly don't spare me any opportunity, why should i give them one? imo this genre is always at its best when you're empowered to feel like a relentless force of destruction

though TNWA - what i'm now considering the true, ultimate, best brawler ever - does tend to do a little bit of enemy-getting-up-will-punish-you-for-hovering, it's usually only with a few bosses. you're able to chain dudes the second they're off the floor, and brutally, relentlessly so. i like to imagine the only reason you can't fuck people up while they're laying prone is because ninja is saving all his knee energy for driving it into your spine and shattering it.

On another note, this kind of (visually) boring strategy, is precisely the reason I didn't post a clip of it on Youtube. I honestly don't think this is too amusing to watch.
On the other hand, when playing, it is quite fun and tense, even if it appears otherwise, as a slight mess up (especially against Misuzu, and I'd wager, the final boss (Sabu). I haven't taken a single hit from him in all my runs, but I hear he kills you in 1 hit?).

yeah, he can shoot and kill you in one hit, iirc. honestly he's nowhere near as dangerous as his lead-up. i think you have to fight multiples and maybe more than one at a time on the higher difficulties.

EDIT : I searched for a diagram of the routes, and I just learned that there's a secret stage (stage 4 S). Wow!
btw my route is the one to "END B"

the secret stage has a joke boss that is very much lost on an english audience. you fight an afro-endowed simon belmont who throws fish!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq2xiLxAiIs

the joke here is that it's supposed to be a combination of simon belmont and famed japanese vocalist masato shimon (known for his afro), who was made famous for the above song (about fish). here's a little trivia about the song. "shimon" and "simon" are pronounced the same way in japanese, so it's a corny pop-culture gag.

It's more solid than spectacular - aesthetically very plain, action is fairly basic, but the pace is quick and collision, control and camera are ultra-tight. Definitely worth a try for hardcore NG fans who like to really master those games.

ultra tight collision????

BIL, did we play the same game? i have what feels like distinct memories of beating the final boss by abusing the hilariously weird hitbox the cat (tiger? i forget) form gets while attacking.

[BIL]

Collision is tight as fucking hell, yep. Played it all weekend after finally getting a copy. I'd never have bothered with this game if it didn't handle properly, given how harsh the instant deaths are and the central balance of weak/ranged to strong/close weaponry.

Last boss takes forever to kill as Tony-kun, I preferred reaching him with the sword.

[kitten]

you tackled the 2nd loop at all?

[BIL]

Only a bit - tbh, if a console action game delivers enough intensity for my liking in its first loop, I won't sweat the second or higher too much before picking it up (see also Battle Formula... still need to finish that one off). Stuff like Metal Storm with extensively well-designed loops is a (precious) luxury imo.

Good buddy AndSuchIsDeath vouched for NC's second loop, and mentioned it being really punishing on the ranged weapons, so I checked out the first stage and left it there for now.

[kitten]

i definitely get that

battle formula's 2nd loop is something i've never given a truly serious attempt and have been saving for the right day, and that's one of my favorite games. i'm not a big fan of suicide bullets as a mechanic in most instances, though, especially when the base game isn't designed around them.

[BIL]

I think BF's second loop would've been a lot more palatable if it let you carry in your powerups from the first. The vanilla car can barely handle the first loop's opening without an experienced player at the controls... I'd love to artfully tear into the second loop likewise, but it's not possible with it instantly putting you on the back foot.

I've broken the initial barricade and gotten a decent car a few times, but the furthest I've gone is the third boss and a prompt giant laser to the face. As you say, more of a rainy day thing. Like Bucky and RKA's respective crazy modes, really. I'd possibly think of Metal Storm's loop the same way, if not for its passwords.

[__SKYe]

imo mistakes tend to make a run more authentic, too. the reality is that most one life clears are a bit dirty and not superbly optimal play, and they should show a bit of your honest playing ability/identity and not look like a 100% scripted performance. i've noticed when people try to go for super perfect play for action games, they either have an incredibly small area of expertise narrowing down to just a few games or their play isn't actually perfect - it's full of hesitation (but less hits/mistakes) and the performance anxiety becomes palpable. the former is typically not worth it and the latter is agonizing to watch.

True, and also, the contrast between the little mistakes on non-important parts, and the quality play on important ones, makes for a great run.
The mistakes makes you view the player as a regular person, but when it matters, they pull off some fantastic, pristine play, and that makes such a run much more interesting to watch, in my opinion.

ever finish it up? there is so, so much learning to bait the AI so that you can reliably hit them with the running jump attack (the downward plunge). there's very rare exception to enemies attacking faster than you can vertically walk past their face, too, so there's a lot of goofiness to baiting whiffs...

No, not in 1 credit, at least.
I remember having played it through in the past, with continues, and I'm pretty sure it was also the MD version, because I distinctely recall the last boss with it's unkillable skeletons. It's one of those games I always think I should play soon, but I never end up doing so.

iirc that is indeed the best way to fight that enemy.

Well, I do that to every single enemy in the game (enemies and bosses alike), and it works, but it takes a long time, which I don't have in Level-2.

you absolutely, abso-lutely need to get used to doing that face-pulpifying pin, though. it's a huge part of the game. not just necessary in some instances but really fun to do, as well. tons of damage, very quick. being unable to 100% reliably do that running attack when i need to is why i could never beat the third loop. you've got to fight through a room of six of the game's 2nd boss, and you basically need to be able to belt that attack out, left-to-right, one enemy to the next, with perfect, rapid precision to not time-out.

Aye, this does indeed looks like what I have to do in order to beat regular enemies faster. The only reason I haven't tried it (properly) before, was because I didn't have to.
The double-tap punch does take practice, as it's fairly easy to run without meaning to. This is especially aggravating in the Stage 1, as I have lost several lives there, by accidentally running to the train tracks, and falling off the platform.

honestly, being able to play as dirty as enemies do (or even dirtier) is a huge part of why i like few technos beat 'em ups. no bullshit honor code, you fuck these people up while they're on the floor, toss off 'em off cliffs, etc.
...
let me kick some ribs, squash some face - these guys certainly don't spare me any opportunity, why should i give them one

Yeah, one thing most (if not all) Technos beat-em-ups I've played have in common, is that enemies won't give you space to breathe, even when you get knocked down. Obviously you can (and should) do the same to them.
Perhaps more than that, in these games, you pretty much have to abuse these kind of attacks, or the opposition will make mince meat out of you.

i've always been deeply aggravated by beat 'em ups where an enemy or boss is essentially invincible when knocked down and will get free attacks on you if you're hovering their body, waiting for them to get up.

I can respect (and even enjoy) bosses' invincibility on knockdown, although I admit some games take this too far, and give them a very excessive invincibility time. This gets even worse when there's no indication of whether the boss is in invincibility time, or not.
Final Fight SFC & GBA are particularly guilty of this, as bosses' i-frames are more than a second long, and there's no indication whatsoever (as in the boss blinking, etc) as whether you can hit them or not. Only practice & experience can tell.

imo this genre is always at its best when you're empowered to feel like a relentless force of destruction

This I only partially agree.
I enjoy both types of beat-em-ups, where 1) it's just like you describe (and to be honest, I believe this is probably the first thing people think when they hear the word beat-em-up) and 2) the type of games where you must take a more focused, precision-like approach to.
They are both fun, in their own way, and i don't believe one is necessarily better than the other.

yeah, he can shoot and kill you in one hit, iirc. honestly he's nowhere near as dangerous as his lead-up. i think you have to fight multiples and maybe more than one at a time on the higher difficulties.

Yeah, I had that impression as well.
The 1Hit-KO pretty much only punishes whoever attacks him head-on. He's one of the easiest parts of Stage 4 alright.
Though with multiple copies of him, things may get hairy.

I do intend to play it more, and I must say it is more fun than I initially gave it credit for.
And just to re-instate, the music in this game is damn cool.

-----

Onwards to other news, I've played Double Dragon II (FC) and managed to reach the ending after spending 3~4 continues.
Some of the lives I lost (maybe 3~4) where for falling into pits, either by being kicked by an enemy, mistimed jump on platforming sections, or accidentally scrolling downwards too much, on levels where you can fall of the bottom ledge.

It is indeed better than the first game, and you don't have to level up to get all your attacks, though there are still things I don't quite like.

The platforming sections, and especially the stage where you have to climb to the top of a vehicle (whatever it is), are not really great, as I don't think this type of game was made for platforming. Later sections are also not so good, but passable.
I just don't think it helps the game much, even though they do provide some variety.

And, my sweet jesus, those damn ninjas are ridiculous. I still have no damn clue as to how to beat them without just duking it out, and hope they die before I do. The most annoying enemies in the game, by far.

One continue went exclusively to the last boss, whose 2~3HP draining spinning hits are a bit**.

I still have to get more playtime on it, and eventually (hopefully) the 1CC, but it appears that, for most of the game, the jump spinkick and the uppercut are key to beat this game.

It is indeed a good game, and I can see why you guys regard it with such esteem, but I still prefer Mighty Final Fight over it.

[BIL]

Been ages since I played DDIIFC, but I knew I remembered having a good ninja method, so fired it up for a quick go (FC, Hard difficulty). Now I remember - the buggers can't duck. So they're extremely vulnerable to an advancing spinkick - even if they're dashing towards you, they'll stop, try to punch you out of it and get clobbered. Launch the jump from out of their striking range and you'll nail them almost every time. They can't be grappled and have nasty instant knockdown strikes, so don't try fighting them on the ground.

Their air attacks and projectiles are nasty. I just get those spinkicks in, you'll keep clear of their ground projectiles while airborne, and they'll die pretty quickly.

Not sure what difficulty you played, but note the FC's Normal = NES Supreme Master. FC Hard is an entirely new and much tougher difficulty level, one I'd suggest playing after clearing Normal and getting to grips with the engine first. The infamously dominant bionic knee (forward and A+B while rising, similar principle but tighter timing than the uppercut) that owns FC Normal/NES Supreme is far less so, here; enemies will duck or trade with it frequently, and their boosted HP means it can't instakill them. However it's still good to practice the timing for obvious opportunities, like when enemies are descending ladders or on platforms overhead. Also, even if they trade, it'll blow them clean off ledges just the same. Again, since ninjas can't duck, they're quite vulnerable to it (though they can stand back and let you whiff, if the knee is launched from too far to connect - they like to do this ).

Typical ninja method (FC/Hard):

Spoiler

Got lucky on a few of their whiffs - a knee would've cut their survival time down nicely, but I'm really rusty so I stuck to the slower but more easily-connected spinkicks. I don't usually punch 'em out (last one) but I just wanted to see what'd happen, haha.

edit: oh god lmao I can't stop playing. An acquired taste, this game, with its tricky input windows and vicious enemies, but it has a real rhythm and snap to its combat.

[kitten]

I think BF's second loop would've been a lot more palatable if it let you carry in your powerups from the first. The vanilla car can barely handle the first loop's opening without an experienced player at the controls... I'd love to artfully tear into the second loop likewise, but it's not possible with it instantly putting you on the back foot.

I've broken the initial barricade and gotten a decent car a few times, but the furthest I've gone is the third boss and a prompt giant laser to the face. As you say, more of a rainy day thing. Like Bucky and RKA's respective crazy modes, really. I'd possibly think of Metal Storm's loop the same way, if not for its passwords.

i think i've gotten up to the 4th stage and then stopped immediately because of having died and powered down on the 3rd boss. even up to the point i was at, it was a fight to get fully powered-up! the first stage is the most tumultuous because you've got to make decisions between getting health or powering up, and it can be entirely fatal if you choose wrong. if you could start from the 2nd loop right off the bat or go into powered up, i feel i'd have worked up the energy to make real attempt at clearing it, but both of those working together with each other leaves me just feeling content with loop 1.

True, and also, the contrast between the little mistakes on non-important parts, and the quality play on important ones, makes for a great run.
The mistakes makes you view the player as a regular person, but when it matters, they pull off some fantastic, pristine play, and that makes such a run much more interesting to watch, in my opinion.

nobody wants to play a game with their teeth gritted the whole time relaxing and making mistakes is the true essence of recreational enjoyment these games are meant to provide, imho!

Aye, this does indeed looks like what I have to do in order to beat regular enemies faster. The only reason I haven't tried it (properly) before, was because I didn't have to.

you'll get a feel for when to do it as you practice with it, i definitely did. risk/reward stuff like that is great in action games. the quick kill saves time, looks flashy, and shows competency - but it's always punishable if you try it at the wrong time. good bit of fun, and a really clever grasp of the game's strengths from such an early belt scroller.

Perhaps more than that, in these games, you pretty much have to abuse these kind of attacks, or the opposition will make mince meat out of you.

i love it when a game thematically ties itself to its mechanics. shmups are great not just for their theming being built around being the lone person against insurmountable odds - the best ones manage to nail that kind of desperate, focused determination in how they play, too. weaving in and out of bullets, daring assaults on bigger foes, etc.

for beat 'em ups, they're games about nasty, grungy street fighting, alleyway brawls, dirty fights. make the mechanics accentuate that! give me risk/reward stuff like pounding someone's face while their friends helplessly rush over, too late to save them from a good thrashing. let me throw people out of bounds and off of buildings!

The platforming sections, and especially the stage where you have to climb to the top of a vehicle (whatever it is), are not really great, as I don't think this type of game was made for platforming. Later sections are also not so good, but passable.
I just don't think it helps the game much, even though they do provide some variety.

i adore double dragon II, but the platforming is absolutely the worst part of the game and i wish they didn't have any. you get used to it, but you shouldn't have to - that shit don't belong :p

[Immryr]

i caught a bit of zoasty running super metroid earlier and saw the reverse boss order route for the first time, it's absolutely insane. he also happened to get the world record, i'd highly recommend watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp-VeEuZsP0

[__SKYe]

Been ages since I played DDIIFC, but I knew I remembered having a good ninja method, so fired it up for a quick go (FC, Hard difficulty). Now I remember - the buggers can't duck. So they're extremely vulnerable to an advancing spinkick - even if they're dashing towards you, they'll stop, try to punch you out of it and get clobbered. Launch the jump from out of their striking range and you'll nail them almost every time. They can't be grappled and have nasty instant knockdown strikes, so don't try fighting them on the ground.

Their air attacks and projectiles are nasty. I just get those spinkicks in, you'll keep clear of their ground projectiles while airborne, and they'll die pretty quickly.

Ah, so that's how you do it. I was trying to beat them on the ground, and their shuriken knockdown tag team was a real nightmare.
I'm still getting used to the Double Dragon games' playstyle, so my play will be rough for a while, but it should get better.
And I know you said this before, but Mighty Final Fight's 2 enemies at a time, truly are nothing against this game.

Not sure what difficulty you played, but note the FC's Normal = NES Supreme Master. FC Hard is an entirely new and much tougher difficulty level, one I'd suggest playing after clearing Normal and getting to grips with the engine first. The infamously dominant bionic knee (forward and A+B while rising, similar principle but tighter timing than the uppercut) that owns FC Normal/NES Supreme is far less so, here; enemies will duck or trade with it frequently, and their boosted HP means it can't instakill them. However it's still good to practice the timing for obvious opportunities, like when enemies are descending ladders or on platforms overhead. Also, even if they trade, it'll blow them clean off ledges just the same. Again, since ninjas can't duck, they're quite vulnerable to it (though they can stand back and let you whiff, if the knee is launched from too far to connect - they like to do this ).

Ah right, you also talked about this before.
I played the Famicom version, on Normal. I figured I'd best get the 1CC on the default difficulty, and only then attempt Hard.
I did use a few continues, but after thinking it a bit through, future runs shouldn't be that bad. Some of the lives where lost purely by unfamiliarity with the layout of the stages (mainly falling into pits), so in future playthroughs, I should be able to avoid (most of) those. Other were also lost, because at first, I didn't use the spinning kick and/or uppercuts, so I ended up losing more life than necessary against some enemies/bosses.
The one part I truly think will take a while, is the final boss(es).

Overall, enemies do little damage to you, so you can afford to get hit a lot (at least on Normal), but it's like the last boss suddenly goes overboard. Not that he shouldn't do that much damage, but the sudden spike on damage feels a bit odd.

On a side note, I couldn't help but chuckle at Abobo, with actual hair.

you'll get a feel for when to do it as you practice with it, i definitely did. risk/reward stuff like that is great in action games. the quick kill saves time, looks flashy, and shows competency - but it's always punishable if you try it at the wrong time. good bit of fun, and a really clever grasp of the game's strengths from such an early belt scroller.

Yup, already did.
Right after you posted your previous post, I went to play it, and managed to pass Stage 4-1 on my first try, using it. Like you said, it comes pretty natural, once you've practice for awhile.
Now, on Stage 4-1, where I previously ran out of time, I can finish with an average of 30+ second remaining, sometimes more.
I should be able to get the 1CC (and probably the 1LC) soon, but haven't done so already, because unless I'm terribly mistaken, the layout of the last maze is different.
I made a map of the last stage, when I 1LCed Level-1, and was following it, when suddenly, one of the rooms didn't have the room I followed in Level-1.
So, once again, I'm in the process of mapping Stage 4 again, which to be honest, is actually pretty fun.

THe pindown attack is pretty fun to do, but also requires technique and attention, in order to just punch enemies enough and walk away, to avoid getting smacked in the face. Like you said, there's definitely a risk/reward thing here, and I'm very pleased with it.
Positioning/baiting the enemies becomes even more important, as now I try to single them out, so that I can pin them down before another one arrives.

Some of the rooms get pretty though, with 3 bosses at the same time, but it's fun nonetheless.

Anyway, I'm gonna play some more, and maybe I'll even get the 1CC today.