The Cave fund

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:46 pm

icycalm wrote:Yeah. Just like all those people who worked for the OTHER shmup companies have.

Actually thats exactly how we have come to the companies we have now. These people don't just die.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:07 pm

icycalm wrote:Well, I avoid idiotic threads, but I attack idiots.

Come to Tokyo and I'll show you.

Oh now come on. You didn't just resort to the internet tough guy attack, did you? I thought you were more clever than that.

I'M GONNA KICK YOUR ASS, FROM HERE TO RIGHT OVER THERE

L O L

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:22 pm

icycalm wrote:
oh and fuck you. No one is forcing you to read all this "nonsense". Just leave your house and go do something useful.

But I have 156 million dollars, please love me!

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:24 pm

Dear zakk,

Look, you got me. I am dumb. In fact, I had the lowest IQ in my class and I never graduated from high school. I can barely form coherent thoughts in my mind, and as you can see I even have toubrle stringing a bearly ligible sentence toogether.

I am dumb and I like to start dumb threads (no choice, see) and dumb people like to post in my thread their dumb comments. And we have our nice little dumb discussions.

One thing that consoles me is that their comments are WELL-MEANING. So even if some dumb fuck disagrees with my dumb comments, he can express his dumb opinions WITHOUT INSULTING ME.

That's how we dumb people are.

Now you, with your eloquent words and towering intellect... won't you please take pity on our dumb souls and let us have the occassional dumb discussion, without barging in with your NEGATIVE, POISON-DRIPPING WORDS? And please take your friend cigs with you too.

Because last time I checked, this was a free and open forum, and even dumb people like myself have the right to start threads for no reason whatsoever (except, of course, if their threads go against the wishes of the owners, which this one obviously hasn't.)

OK?

PLEASE?

Bye bye now. Go play in some other thread.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:39 pm

icycalm wrote:So even if some dumb fuck disagrees with my dumb comments, he can express his dumb opinions WITHOUT INSULTING ME.

Has a point there. There seems to be a lot of trolling going round the past few days, especially from some respected members. Let it go guys, you are only making yourselves look worse by defending your positions.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:41 pm

icycalm wrote:Dear zakk,

Because last time I checked, this was a free and open forum, and even dumb people like myself have the right to start threads for no reason whatsoever (except, of course, if their threads go against the wishes of the owners, which this one obviously hasn't.)

I never said you couldn't start them. Feel free to continue. Just don't be shocked when some people react with 'lol internet drama whore'.

Because that's what it is.

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:44 pm

Dave_K. wrote:
Has a point there. There seems to be a lot of trolling going round the past few days, especially from some respected members.

You can go ahead and say it Dave, I've been a real turd lately. But this thread is silly and it's warranted.

If shmups.com could roll with a few punches and laugh at some jokes now and again we'd all have a lot more fun.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:44 pm

zakk wrote:Just don't be shocked when some people react with 'lol internet drama whore'.

Because that's what it is.

Yes, I forgot about that.

I am also an internet drama whore. In fact, I'd like that as my title if it's possible.

Thanks for pointing that out, Zakk. You are sweet.

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:54 pm

Internet. Serious Business.

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:09 pm

So... how about this new information that you have about Cave. Let's hear it.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:21 pm

Valgar wrote:
icycalm wrote:Yeah. Just like all those people who worked for the OTHER shmup companies have.
Actually thats exactly how we have come to the companies we have now. These people don't just die.

Obviously some of the Zanac Neo staff and Shinobu Yagawa faded into oblivion

FraGMarE · Post by **FraGMarE** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:36 pm

Are we still on the Shmups Forum, or has this thread been moved to gamefaqs.com?

'bout time for a lock on this one, isn't it?

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:47 pm

Locking everything anytime there's a disagreement is no solution.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:50 pm

cigsthecat wrote:Locking everything anytime there's a disagreement is no solution.

I disagree.

MA7 · Post by **MA7** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:50 pm

Send them a nice 'thank you' card

Use the money to get yourself whatever Cave games you don't yet have

job done!

EDIT sorry, was that going a bit on-topic?

joke!

Trevor spencer · Post by **Trevor spencer** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:52 pm

If cave were struggling financially id rather buy the company and fund it until it could start earning profit again.

im not one for charity or giving cash away even if i did have 156million

Edge · Post by **Edge** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:27 pm

Don't ask me. I would probably visit all private game development schools. And after that start my own company and hire lots of experienced great people and also try to get new folks in. Those can learn from the veterans and might also bring some fresh and new ideas...
Well and i would have to work in the game design department. This would be more fun to me than playing any games.

I would try to let the company make profits, but it is not the main objective. Which is to make good and new games of various genres and styles.

So any anonymous millionaires in here, who'd like to "invest" their money into my project?

Rastan78 · Post by **Rastan78** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:30 pm

icycalm wrote: I've logged in hundreds of hours on DP, DDP, Guwange and Esprade on MAME, and Cave hasn't seen a single dime from me for those games. If I went out and bought used copies of the DP and DDP ports, Cave still wouldn't see any of that money.

I had a freaking awesome time playing those games. I WANT to show those people my gratitude and give something back to them. Sure, I've bought all the PS2 ports, and quite a few soundtracks, figurines and all that crap.

Use the money to buy up dozens of Cave PCB's every time they release a new game and buy it at the full pre-order price. If you bought a large enough amount, Cave would end have to produce more boards and end up making more money. Then you could donate all those boards to forum members who could play them to their heart's content.

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:10 pm

Rastan78 wrote:If you bought a large enough amount, Cave would end have to produce more boards and end up making more money. Then you could donate all those boards to forum members who could play them to their heart's content.

I'll take Ibara Kuro and Pink Sweets PCBs to go please. Extra strawberry milkshake. Hold the fries.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:21 pm

i'd like a ketsui and an ibara and a dangun feveron

no ice

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:13 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:I've also more or less accepted the fact that we few fans who sit here half a planet away from them really can't have a heck of a lot of effect on what happens over there. All we can do is support whatever does come our way and hope for the best.

While pessimistically I believe you're right, a little voice inside me hopes you're wrong.

On topic, lets assume our hypothetical shmup-crazy philanthropist and his millions of dollars does want to do something for the good of shumpping. So far it seems the general concencus is one of three deas:

1) Fund partially or entirely development and training of new staff at your favourite developer's location.

2) Become a publisher, and help your favourite developer get their games out into the broader market

3) Start your own development house.

I've got no problems admitting I'm the biggest Cave fanboi out there. But from the very little I've seen, I find them (and similarly other Japanese developers like Treasure) to be borderline arrogant/ignorant to the non-Japanese market. That's not meant as an insult either. I've spent a very short amount of time in Japan on holidays, and their entire culture is very inward-focussed. That's the majority of it's charm right there.

I'm also a raving hippy and free-software advocate (free as in freedom, not free as in "doesn't cost anything"). I'm quite political when it comes to free software, and teams like GNU, the FSF (Free Software Foundation) and their involvement with free software like Linux and BSD.

As such, if it were my money, I'd consider starting my own development project. Moreso, I'd make it open source. I'd start with a small group of developers who I funded directly (a million bucks a year in wages will easily get you a team of 10 junior devs and 2-3 seniors). I'd make the sourcecode open, but still release the finished binary product as a pay-for game via a pay-and-play download system. I'd invite coders to contribute pieces, plugins, mods, whatever as they see fit, and the best of the best would be invited to become pay-for members of the team.

Of course, if you were against open development for whatever reason, the same could be done closed. I personally believe that it's a sure fire way to kill yourself through obscurity, but whatever.

The benefits of course are:

1) New blood enters the shmup development industry. Something that seems to be lacking lately.

2) Open source development promotes "tinkering" by third parties, and expanding in directions that aren't planned, but are more often pleasant. Modular plugin-based code with a community focus quite frequently results in offshoot projects. More shmups is a good thing, I say.

3) The project is not limited to Japan, the US, or anywhere in particular. Teams can work internationally. After all, America is only 100ms away from me here in Australia, talking in ping times. Why limit yourself to physical locations when we have the power of the internet?

4) Online publishing - either straight off your own site, or via existing systems like Steam (although not limiting yourself to Windows is always a good idea). No wasted cash on boxed copies, no wasted cash on publishing expenses, etc, etc. Customer pays $20, you get $20. As opposed to currently, where I buy a Cave game for $80 and Cave might see anywhere between $10 and $20 after the publishers, distributors, and Sony themselves all take their cut. This also means cheaper games. People are much more willing to risk trying a $20 game then they are trying out an $80 game.

Anyways... just braindumping. I like the flow of this thread, so I appeal to everyone to keep it on topic and civil. This isn't a "do Cave deserve money" thread. It's a thread with an interesting and IMHO important question reguarding our very own community and interests at large. Shmup development gets slower and slower every year. Bitching and fighting won't bring it back. Money will, but only if it's spent right. And thus, we have the theme of this thread.

[edit] All of the above is my opinion and nothing more. My opinion is not "more correct" than anyone elses. I do no presume that my "solution" will work "better" or even at all. And if someone does start a "Save Cave" fund, I will be putting cash towards it.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:23 pm

Umm Treasure's president Masato Maegawa has said that without foreign sales they would not be around today. They have tried to bring all of their stuff over here, but shit happens. They are not to blame.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:06 am

elvis wrote:While pessimistically I believe you're right, a little voice inside me hopes you're wrong.

Granted, I wish I could be more optimistic too, but, well...heck, my name's BulletMagnet, for Pete's sake.

Valgar wrote:Umm Treasure's president Masato Maegawa has said that without foreign sales they would not be around today. They have tried to bring all of their stuff over here, but shit happens. They are not to blame.

I'd say Treasure is a bit of a different case than Cave...its games are a bit more varied in nature, so at least SOME of its stuff will appeal to non-Japanese gamers (and make said gamers more open to niche titles developed by said company, a la Ikaruga), not to mention that its origins are in Konami, a recognizable name with a lot of resources behind it. Cave comes largely from Toaplan (which most Westerners, I think, have forgotten existed) and still sticks almost exclusively (or at least did, up to this point) to the shmup niche, which to this day has never managed to get even one title picked up for distribution outside of Asia.

In short, even if what Maegawa says above is correct, somehow I doubt that the same holds true for Cave.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:16 am

Yea CAVE doesn't give a shit. I just gotta keep it straight for Treasure. lol heart TREASURE.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:22 am

Valgar wrote:lol heart TREASURE.

I really hope you didn't actually interpret my post like that.

I'm not saying Cave "doesn't care," just that the stuff they make has little to no market here, while Treasure's does, regardless of quality or what have you (I ain't even gonna touch that one

). Just business, as they say, nothing personal.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:25 am

Valgar wrote:Yea CAVE doesn't give a shit. I just gotta keep it straight for Treasure. lol heart TREASURE.

Even if Cave gave a big pile of shit, it doesn't matter. It's out of their hands. They do not sell their own games. Not one. Only their toys and occasional CD/DVD. They've decided that it's not in their interest to carry that risk. If white people really want those games coming out in their respective countries they need to convince (currently) AMI that it is worth their while to do so (which would be a bold-faced lie, I might add).

EDIT: For those that are wanting to give money to Cave thinking they're going away. Those guys generally know how to make money with games a lot better than anyone here. Also worth noting is that their games done by Ikeda are always in the top handful of arcade games. If they're not making enough w/ that, all the capital in the world won't help if they're making the same games.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:32 pm

About AMI. Have you seen them publish any games other than Cave's? Check out their site:

http://www.ami-toy.co.jp/

The only non-Cave title on the frontpage is that Spectral Generation fighting game, which came out quite recently.

I have a feeling AMI is just a company set up by Cave people in order to distribute their own arcade titles after they parted ways with Atlus. This sort of thing happens a lot in other industries. A book publisher, for example, may start their own distribution company and call it by a different name, possibly for legal, tax and marketing reasons.

If that's correct then, as far as we are concerned, they are one and the same company, and business decisions are made by more or less the same bunch of people.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:35 pm

icycalm wrote:If that's correct then, as far as we are concerned, they are one and the same company, and business decisions are made by more or less the same bunch of people.

Sorry, your wacky theory is not correct. AMI and Cave are totally separate companies.

BTW AMI also recently published the beat'em up 'road of the sword', which was designed by the Taiwanese company IGS.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:37 pm

How do you know?

edit: And thanks for editing your post to add that my theory is wacky.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:46 pm

Look at their company page:

http://www.ami-toy.co.jp/company.html

They list their CLIENTS as: Cave, Sega, Tecmo, Capcom, Ima Corporation, and 200 arcades countrywide.

And yes, your theory is wacky. Best have some evidence before you come up with such silly things, otherwise it makes you look foolish.