Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[BIL]

OK, let's assume that a few seconds after the end of my last credit of the game, it suddenly stops becoming a "call-and-response zero teleport" fest, and actually punishing you for playing in such a manner.

Er, it already was punishing you, from what you've shown. You posted a shitfest credit of the slow PAL version that I went slightly balder watching, ending in you getting killed by Flying Neo, who's no big deal in the grand scheme of things but incidentally demands you manually zone him with the Strafe shot type, since to shoot him in the face you've got to be right in front of him while likely being attacked yourself. Not hovering, where you're completely immobile unless you teleport, which puts you outside of striking range, etc etc.

That still leaves a full quarter of the game that can be played in a ridiculous and boring manner.

See above, and previous posts. Act I is the game's beginner course, it still fucked you up, and also - calling it "a full quarter" is misleading. Acts II, III and IV each take a bigger proportion of time, it's not a pizza.

Why the hell would anyone design a game like this? It's not like it's hard to find games that have an early boss or stage that says "L2P correctly before you can proceed" -- why the hell does Alien Soldier put its boss of this nature over a quarter of the way into the game, leaving beginners to play "simon says"?

See what I mean about tiring? You don't know how to play, you got fucked by an early comedy boss, quit whining and/or taking me for a fool by pretending you had any idea what you were doing.

And, as an even better question, who the hell would play the game to the point that they got to see it?!?!?!

"Wahh it's impossible!" Not everyone's as incompetent as you I guess. Like I said, it's a deliberately insane, off-kilter game. I'm not surprised it turns some people off before they've even learned to walk (or zone, or strafe). Unfortunately one of those people is now lecturing me on why the game is shallow.

Well, aside from kids who weren't getting another game for six months.

Don't even try this angle, bud. Pitiful!

[Obscura]

The problem is that saying your interest is "peaked" means something entirely different than saying it's "piqued". In this context I can tell which you mean, but you shouldn't assume that will always be the case.

[BIL]

DONT IGNORE ME OBSCURA

^THAT IS JOKE

[Obscura]

Don't worry BIL-chan, I started making that post before yours was added to the thread.

Er, it already was punishing you, from what you've shown. You posted a shitfest credit of the slow PAL version that I went slightly balder watching, ending in you getting killed by Flying Neo, who's no big deal in the grand scheme of things but incidentally demands you manually zone him with the Strafe shot type, since to shoot him in the face you've got to be right in front of him while likely being attacked yourself. Not hovering, where you're completely immobile unless you teleport, which puts you outside of striking range, etc etc.

Watch again. My "hover in front of him and zero teleport" would have worked had I not both botched my input on a teleport and gotten hit while doing the slow flip-out, and followed it up by facing the wrong direction on a jump and gotten hit in the back when he had almost no health left.

So, no, teleporting around didn't get me punished.

See what I mean about tiring? You don't know how to play, you got fucked by an early comedy boss, quit whining and/or taking me for a fool by pretending you had any idea what you were doing.

Where did I say that credit was an example of great Alien Soldier play that one should emulate? Didn't I do the exact opposite by calling it a kusoplay?

Yes. Yes, I did.

But, hey, keep making that strawman argument! Maybe eventually, I won't notice that I never claimed to be good at AS!

"Wahh it's impossible!" Not everyone's as incompetent as you I guess. Like I said, it's a deliberately insane, off-kilter game. I'm not surprised it turns some people off before they've even learned to walk (or zone, or strafe). Unfortunately one of those people is now lecturing me on why the game is bad.

Please show me where I complained that the game was too hard. Oh wait, I didn't. Do you make a habit of playing games that are awful for their first 15 minutes?

Don't even try this angle, bud. Pitiful!

Why wouldn't I? There's lots of games I gave too much time to in my youth for that exact reason.

[__SKYe]

The problem is that saying your interest is "peaked" means something entirely different than saying it's "piqued". In this context I can tell which you mean, but you shouldn't assume that will always be the case.

That is the point. In this context, everyone knew what he meant to say, so your remark is unnecessary.

[BIL]

Watch again. My "hover in front of him and zero teleport" would have worked had I not both botched my input on a teleport and gotten hit while doing the slow flip-out, and followed it up by facing the wrong direction on a jump and gotten hit in the back when he had almost no health left.

So, no, teleporting around didn't get me punished.

Believe me, I watched it all. You struggled and died against Flying Neo, and if you hadn't fucked up and just about scraped by, either the battleship or Xi-Tiger would've finished you off. Even if you don't feel punished, I assure you, your audience did!

Where did I say that credit was an example of great Alien Soldier play that one should emulate? Didn't I do the exact opposite by calling it a kusoplay?

Yes. Yes, I did.

But, hey, keep making that strawman argument! Maybe eventually, I won't notice that I never claimed to be good at AS!

It's no strawman. The trail of shitposts over the last few pages are all you, right back to the first where you claimed to have any idea of how this game works. It's not my fault that the best you have to back up this claim are shitposts and a shit replay!

Please show me where I complained that the game was too hard. Oh wait, I didn't. Do you make a habit of playing games that are awful for their first 15 minutes?

Like I stressed a page or so back, no, it's not "too hard" for you or any decent player. What it is, for a sidescroller, is unusually complex and idiosyncratic at a fundamental mechanical level.

I'm shit at playing FPSs with modern console gamepads - stuff like Halo 3 makes me feel almost ill. I never felt compelled to play any further. It's not because it's too hard, it's because I'm a fucking noob (like you at AS). If I wanted, could I invest the time to get competent on a pad again, like I did with the original Halo back in 2001? Yeah, undoubtedly. Until then, I've nevertheless got no idea WTF I'm talking about with regards to Halo 3.

Why wouldn't I? There's lots of games I gave too much time to in my youth for that exact reason.

That's on you and having shit taste, I guess! I grew up relatively poor with like twelve games altogether between NES and Genesis, not counting rentals. I was recently posting about Alien 3MD, which I owned in my youth for a bit before tossing it for old, well-worn favourites like Strider and The Super Shinobi, because it was shit and they were not. If I didn't suffer from your ailment back then, I sure as hell don't now with relatively unlimited choice.

So yeah, don't bother. Talk about the game instead of diagnosing strangers. 3;

[Skykid]

The Makaimura series doesn't have a fanbase because it's fun to keep getting motherfucked in the first five minutes, it's got a fanbase because it's fun to switch the motherfucking and punish the game the way it tried to punish you.

Makaimura isn't like whatever shitty licensed games (or Alien Soldier LOL) that we bought as kids and had to convince ourselves were playable because we weren't getting another game for six months. It was an arcade game. If you were at an arcade, there was no sunk cost associated with playing a game for the first time.

If Makaimura wasn't fun on that first credit where it buried you in stage 1, it would have never had a following, because no one would have played past that first credit. Being fun on that first credit wouldn't have been enough for the series to become what it did (I agree entirely that learning curves are a thing! Go read my posts on The Super Shinobi a page or two back, plzkthx), but it was a necessary precondition for the series having any kind of popularity.

But that's not true. Makaimura in its inception was and is an arcade game, but home console iterations were as much arcade games as any other platformer or bespoke genre contribution. Chomakaimura, for example, is by no means "fun" from the outset. It's not a kind, lighthearted, or relaxing initiation: it's a horrible, vexing, violent ingratiation that's actually fiercer and more pitfall-laden than later stages.

Undeadline and Alien Soldier are similarly themed, just to name a couple. This poise doesn't make them bad games, just hard games that require an extra level of dedication before they blossom.

In direct response to your Makaimura example, I don't consider that to be a game many considered out and out fun on their first credit. It's particularly punishing, and would swallow that first coin in a puff of smoke - it certainly did mine when I was a kid. And at that time I was too young to persevere with it and I sidelined it for other games in the arcade where I knew I could stretch the credit longer. But older gamers with more experience saw it as a mechanically sound game that they wanted to best.

A tough game that's also a good game isn't a magical concept, just a rarer breed.

[BIL]

A tough game that's also a good game isn't a magical concept, just a rarer breed.

Excellently put!

[Durandal]

Debate the principle of learning curves all you like - AS is most definitely not for everyone, and I myself certainly wouldn't put it in an arcade as-is. But please get some humility re: specific games you demonstrably know nothing about. Otherwise, you are shitting in my thread, and as stated - no matter how much I like you or anyone else here, I can't let that slide. 3;

Sorry, but the whole "you have to be good before you can criticize it!" argument is dumb as hell, and you know it. It's a rhetorical trap that people who can't actually argue in favor of a game they like use so that they can automatically invalidate any argument against said game, regardless of the content of that argument.

Player didn't spend the 30 hours to git gud: "You can't criticize it until you've spent 30 hours to git gud!"
Player did spend the 30 hours to git gud: "Obviously you must have liked it because you played it for 30 hours!"

The fallacy persists because it has a base in truth. Namely, that you learn to understand the game and why it is the way it is in the process of 'getting good', and that nobody monocled takes IGN seriously when they actually try to get deeper into the mechanics of a game for aspects that haven't been widely parroted and dissected across the internet. You don't need to be a WR holder to discern obvious design flaws apparent from the surface, but the thing is that those 'design flaws' could very well be intentional decisions made for a reason you might come to understand if you spend more time in unraveling the game's machinations, especially when the game likes to devour your balls while drinking a cup of your tears.

At some point you might think you understand a game, thinking 'all I need to do is this', but if it were that easy you'd be a world champion already. Yet you aren't, so why is that?

Knowledge is only one half of what makes up skill, the other is execution.

[BIL]

The other thing I should've said is Obscura, your method's inefficiency wastes ammo, which in this game is always at a premium (there's no refills between there and Xi-Tiger). So again, even if you didn't know it, your playstyle was incurring heavy penalties. Trust me I can notice these things.

Swiftly, efficiently demolishing stages and bosses with the game's full mechanical suite (both shot types, Phoenix force, Counter force, even empty-tank "Zero force," down to basic manual dodging, plus the teleport) isn't just for speedrunners - it frees up the resources you need to keep your momentum going and stay in that feedback loop.

As stated a few pages back, I don't care for speedrunning and actively dislike painstaking, frame-by-frame optimisation - but I find AS particularly rewarding to evaluate and refine for this reason. It's a tricky process, too - very easy to think I've stumbled on a perfect solution to a snag, only to realise I've broken something elsewhere (see Catman Bikers post, a couple pages back). It's not an illusion, it's calibrated game design.

[kitten]

Holy d..amn!! CIB copy goes for at least three times of what I paid now, and it's not even that long ago I bought it. One of my more recent Famicom acquisitions (at least compared to the ~20 year history of my collection, not including the games I got as a kid)
When did AVGN play Holy Diver though? I must have missed that one.
I actually tend to check AGDQ schedules beforehand to see if they include any "obscure" games already on my "to get"-list, so I can bump up their priority. Glad I managed to pick up Magical Pop'n before it was featured there.

it was a "james and mike" mondays episode, where james sits down with his fucking completely insufferable moron friend with no charisma, who totally hijacked his channel, and then bafflingly laughs at anything he says for 15 minutes. i did not know that he played it until after i saw the prices going up, having unfollowed his channel a long, long time ago. i went to youtube and typed "holy diver" in the search bar, looked for the popular results, and boom, there was what was near undeniably the cause for the price hike. most famicom games are common enough that importer prices barely make a dent in them (especially if they're not region exclusive), but when you get to a semi-obscure release like holy diver, the second japanese sellers on YAJ get a scent that they're going to make more on eBay, they up and leave and the YAJ prices curve similarly to the eBay ones (this is basically what has happened to all notable pc engine games). sometimes fc games that aren't even region exclusive start going quite high just because the jp version is cheaper - which flocks people to it until it's not. cases like metal storm or seirei densetsu lickle are good examples.

lemme chew everyone's ear off for just a moment, since i'm new here:

i am not well off and suffer from a severe anxiety disorder not unlike ptsd (among a few other things) that has placed me on disability. i don't leave the house by myself. affording expensive, older games is tough for me, and a big part of why i went to imports, in the first place. this stuff makes me super angry, and i've rubbernecked the behaviors of these braindead collectors long enough to have extreme confidence that the fraction of them who will actually play the game past the first couple of stages is nearly nonexistent. most of the people who will play the games any reasonable amount strongly tend to be people emulating with no intention to buy, and even then it rarely goes beyond save-stated tourism. the youtuber and gdq-fan phenomenon has created more awareness for many old games, but done almost nothing to encourage anyone to play them as intended. i would perhaps make an argument that both of those things have actually, actively obfuscated appreciation of finer design to a point worse than it was beforehand. both have them have made it seem that "hardcore" (a term i dislike using) play is simply not accessible to a normal person. popular youtubers and their lack of proficiency (and loud cursing at repeated deaths and general tourism) set a standard for what level of skill and understanding bring about the truest sense of appreciation, and speedrunners with their extreme proficiency make apt play seem like an unobtainable fantasy. the common usage of phrases like "nintendo hard" begin to replace an analyzation that could have otherwise been "difficult, but nuanced." it becomes a way to happily dismiss games and only engage on a superficial, communal level. i'm willing to bet this forum hasn't started growing faster with the advent of either of those things!

aside from a couple of figures here and there, old games are about all i spend my money on, and i'd like to have something nice without having to compete with the bottomless wallets of people whose only joy in life is a filled shelf and the assurance that their 8 year old self would think they're cool, somehow. i don't have any other expensive habits, don't drink and have never smoked or touched drugs, aggressively shop for and cook cheaper foods, sell a few things i've picked up here and there that have become worth money, and occasionally write an article for a few bucks (which is hard for me to get the energy & focus for), all to be able afford what relatively little i can. i have a pretty big collection with a few nice rarities or obscure titles, but it's almost all loose and nearly anything expensive i did research on before buying and got it at its cheapest, usually with a couple of weeks to multiple months of patience for the right auction to come along. it has been accrued over many patient years. a quick buy like TWNA for $69 a couple pages back is not something i even come close to often doing, but take a look at the last four months of sales on yahoo auctions. the absolute cheapest it went for was 6000, and then after that, getting it for 6500 is something you're damn lucky to do. after fees, the price was very comparable to ebay, and i wouldn't have to wait a long time to get it. ebay copy had some very minor (by my standard) condition issues, but w/e.

my boxed copy of gimmick (no manual) is probably my most prized thing, i take it on trips like a good luck charm and set it up like a little totem . i got it for only about 22k yen, when it often goes for 30k (or more on ebay), loose. i know i could get a flash cart and save money, but man, when you're buying nothing fun for yourself and never treating yourself a little bit, your life gets real depressing, real fast. buying games for the lowest price i can gives me some nice goalposts - getting a game at a good price feels like a bit of a reward in and of itself, and it makes me even more excited to play. a thread like this where people actually play their big purchases extensively and love and appreciate old games as more than a novelty, nostalgic circlejerk, or monument to the idea that they once loved games as a child is a very genuine rarity, which is why i've been posting with an almost deranged gusto. not at all trying to give y'all a sob story, but a little background on 1. why i'm so bitter about collectors and 2. why i'm happy to be posting on here.

The Makaimura series doesn't have a fanbase because it's fun to keep getting motherfucked in the first five minutes

the way modern games appreciation for older games has turned, one would be eager to believe that appreciation for a game like that would be exactly because it kills you often, and that's fucking awesome and true hardcore retro.

See this is how I always start out playing. Gently (or at least trying to be).
But invariably, with any kind of game that isn't an RPG, I'l always end up pressing too hard on D-Pad/buttons, especially when there is some intense action going on. And that's why I love the feeling I get from a PS gamepad, that it won't break no matter what.

there are streamers who go at their button pushing with such fucking ferocity that it actually makes me terribly anxious i've seen people who can make even simple games seem like some kind of athletic hurdle with how loud they're smacking those buttons. do you get that kinda fury in ya??? where the clicks and clacks become rather audible?

If you go simply by the gameplay mechanics, then if you don't like Final Fight, then you won't enjoy this one too, as they play very similarly. The difficulty is probably also on par with the SFC version of Final Fight (the arcade FInal Fight is MUCH more brutal), maybe a bit less. Still have to play it a bit more to get a better opinion, since I've been playing Final Fight for quite a while now (and it's kinda hard to properly compare difficulty without bias, given the difference in experience).
However, if you enjoy the character/overall design, and want 2P mode (like WelsMegalodon said, the SFC games have 2P mode), then yes, it can be very fun.

2p mode makes about any beat 'em up some degree of fun, even if you're less enjoying the game and more just enjoying the company of your friend. plus, again, she likes sailor moon

Yeah, perhaps the most common way Beat-em-ups are bashed is by their repetitiveness.
And by the way, in my opinion, this is one of the genres that suffers the most from watching replays as opposed to honestly playing the game(s). This is because any sort of strategy/positioning/skill, will most likely not be properly portrayed in a replay, and the thing people will remember the most, is how there are a ton of repetitive enemy groups, and/or how the player uses some cheesy way to beat them (like infinite combo in Final Fight/Bare Knuckle).
The most important advice I can give anyone on getting to enjoy a good game on this genre, is give an honest try to a game like Final Fight (yes, I mention Final Fight many times, but I believe it to be the epitome of Beat-em-ups ).
Pulling of the last-hit-throw technique on several enemies in succession perfectly, just in time to avoid getting it by the ones behind you, and being able to walk from these situations without taking a single hit, is one of the most enjoyable sensations on any game.

do you have a suggestion to which version i should play? or which sequel, for that matter? i can access the arcade original through capcom classics collection, but prefer to play with something better than a ps2 controller, if i can. no promises here that i'll actually get around to it.

i did manage to enjoy something as trash as ufo kamen yakisoban (which i bought complete for hella cheap because lmao a beat 'em up about a ramen noodle mascot) the last time i played it, so i have an inclination that i might actually enjoy final fight on another attempt at it. i could never figure out how to reliably grapple as haggar, which was such a frustration to me, because i really fucking wanted to play as beefcake mayor man. a lot of belt scrolling beat 'em ups have move inputs (and seemingly skill ceilings) similar to fighting games, which i've always struggled with. i prefer simple move inputs and complicated ways of executing them, which is why i have such an incredible lean toward classic action games, platformers, and shmups. knowing exactly what i want to do and then flubbing it because i had to take a split-second to recall the input or did a half circle instead of a quarter circle have always been instantly frustrating as hell, to me.

Yesterday, I played Harmful Park for the first time in a while, and image my surprise when:

Spoiler

:O i just played a bit of harmful park again just last year to celebrate my new mod-chipped ps1. cute game!

Dear lord this thread was active this weekend. I love it! Looks like quite the shit-show around Alien Soldier, I've never played the game but my interest is peaked as well.

is it unusual that it moves this fast? i feel like i might have injected some rapid life into it - i'm rather talkative about these types of games!

I was wondering! I've not played Ranger X so it's all hard n' heavy, with a bit of chibi if you play on EZ:

lmao holy shit, is that in the NA version or ex-ranza exclusive?

"Rough" reminds me of the Lemmings' difficulty titles. And is a bit strangely erotic too, oo guvna.

perhaps it was spriggan mark II? this one is going to frustrate me until i recall it properly >;(

[BIL]

Dear lord this thread was active this weekend. I love it! Looks like quite the shit-show around Alien Soldier, I've never played the game but my interest is peaked as well.

is it unusual that it moves this fast? i feel like i might have injected some rapid life into it - i'm rather talkative about these types of games!

Don't worry, it's not just you. (old forum meme) The forum in general moves a bit slower than this, usually. Contentious times and it being the weekend will contribute to the occasional blowup, in this thread's case - the last one revolved around Contra III, or as I like to think of it, The CONTRAVERSY LMAO. :O

(yep, still working on that thread index / "table of contents," dojo_b! )

lmao holy shit, is that in the NA version or ex-ranza exclusive?

Top-secret JP-exclusive training stage for EZ mode. ^__^ Both Easy and Heavy are hidden in that version; you need to piano-input ABC-ABC-ABC a few times at the title screen to unlock 'em.

perhaps it was spriggan mark II? this one is going to frustrate me until i recall it properly >;(

PCE STGs do have some pretty colourful ones, I find, like Gunhed's "NORMAL DOG" / "GOD OF GAME" and Super Star Soldier's "POOR BODY" / "GO GO ENEMIES."

[FinalBaton]

Sorry, but the whole "you have to be good before you can criticize it!" argument is dumb as hell

Actually, it's not

The fun in those games is in learning efficient ways to dispatch enemies. Wether it comes in the form of enemy placement and pattern memorization, or learning to efficiently cycle through your weapons. So if you can't manage that, then you have not experienced just how rewarding the game is.

And thus you have no right to criticize it.

[__SKYe]

there are streamers who go at their button pushing with such fucking ferocity that it actually makes me terribly anxious i've seen people who can make even simple games seem like some kind of athletic hurdle with how loud they're smacking those buttons. do you get that kinda fury in ya??? where the clicks and clacks become rather audible?

Haha, no man, absolutely not, I don't mean I press the buttons hard in some crazed state of fury.
It's really just that, when I get engrossed in a game, I tend to press harder, in order to make sure inputs happen. It's somewhat like when people play racing games and rotate the gamepad like it would help with the steering.
It's nothing crazy. And those streamers probably act THAT deranged, because they know people are watching, so it's like a child throwing a tantrum at the slightest crap. Not cool, really.

2p mode makes about any beat 'em up some degree of fun, even if you're less enjoying the game and more just enjoying the company of your friend. plus, again, she likes sailor moon

That's true. Multiplayer can make even the crapiest/dullest game fun. Okay maybe not the crappiest, but you know what I mean.

do you have a suggestion to which version i should play? or which sequel, for that matter? i can access the arcade original through capcom classics collection, but prefer to play with something better than a ps2 controller, if i can. no promises here that i'll actually get around to it.

Well, the original is always the best, but there are considerations, of course.
The arcade game is the hardest, by quite a bit. If you want quasi-arcade perfect port, the Sega CD is your best shot.
The SNES/SFC version is also quite butchered. There's only 2 characters (Guy was cut off, and released in another game Final Fight Guy, and there he replaced Cody. Also JP only), can only display 4 enemies on screen at once (which makes it quite easier), and the 5th stage was removed. Also, there's no 2P here, so it's probably not worth it.
Final Fight 2, is essentially what FF1 should have been on the SNES. There are 3 characters, 2P was put back in, and there's new levels, of course.
To be honest though, although it plays just like FF1, it doesn't look (nor sound) quite as good, but that's my opinion only, so you may want to check a video or so.
Final Fight 3 is what many people consider the best of the series (and it is indeed good), but again, I always prefer the original. It is better than 2 though, also has 4 characters now, multiple routes, special attacks (command moves, a la Street Fighter) and a sP CPU option (never really used it though).

One version I'm particularly fond of, is the GBA port Final Fight One.
This is pretty much like the original (bar graphics/sound, of course), but has 2 additional characters (Cody and Guy from SF: Zero/Alpha). There's also swappable palettes for each character, rapid punch (if you want).
There's also 2P, but only through Link Cable (if I'm not mistaken).

Check the HG101 page, not for the reviews, but rather for some screenshots and comparison between versions.

a lot of belt scrolling beat 'em ups have move inputs (and seemingly skill ceilings) similar to fighting games, which i've always struggled with. i prefer simple move inputs and complicated ways of executing them, which is why i have such an incredible lean toward classic action games, platformers, and shmups. knowing exactly what i want to do and then flubbing it because i had to take a split-second to recall the input or did a half circle instead of a quarter circle have always been instantly frustrating as hell, to me.

I absolutely agree with you there.
To me, a good beat-em-up needs only a small but specific set of moves/inputs. Flashy moves/combos may be fun for a while (while they're a novelty), but nothing beats having a reliable and polished moveset.
This is why I prefer the original Final Fight to every other beat-em-up I've ever played.Every move in FF has a specific purpose, and they are all necessary to win.
It has your basic combo for hitting your average mook or/and crowd of mooks that are on the same place. The last-hit-throw to send every enemy in a group, in the same direction (absolutely necessary for crowd control. Rule #1 in any beat-em-up: don't get surrounded ). Jump attack for a quick breather, when space is necessary, and the Jump+Down+Attack for quick poke & grab.
Hell, even the invulnerability when throwing/picking up items adds to a refined gameplay (you can, and should, try to time your throws/item pickups just right, so that you can avoid attacks).
It's one of those games that really makes one apreciate the role that simple controls/mechanics play, especially as you get better.
One hell of a game indeed.

[BIL]

Fuck my old boots screwing about with my usual Alien Soldier kusoplaying (btw, this term traditionally refers to competent but unremarkable play, ie, not Superplay-worthy ;3 ), and had a bit too much fun with BACK STRINGER. You see, I like to let his zako drag VIBLACK's ravaged corpse (which is the platform) wayyy down, then wipe 'em out quick, and jam my burner right up his ass for MUCHO damage. Unfortunately this time, the last zako was hiding under big daddy, pulling me to my certain doom no matter how I torched! :O

So I had to manually smack the little fucker away with counterforce, which got me several big ol' nips from daddy, which meant I had to fight EPSILON II at red health. So yeah, fuck me old boots! Dodging those random pecks on pain of instant death woke me right up! :O

*caw caw* (FULLSCREEN TARGETED LASERDEATH) *caw caw* (FULLSCREEN LASERDEATH AIM OFFSET) *caw caw* (FULLSCREEN LASERDEATH AIM OFFSET) Oh thank fuck, he's dead.

Yo I love this game.

edit:

a thread like this where people actually play their big purchases extensively and love and appreciate old games as more than a novelty, nostalgic circlejerk, or monument to the idea that they once loved games as a child is a very genuine rarity, which is why i've been posting with an almost deranged gusto. not at all trying to give y'all a sob story, but a little background on 1. why i'm so bitter about collectors and 2. why i'm happy to be posting on here.

I feel that way about this forum in general, honestly. It's a pretty sound set of folks for gaming and general geek/pop-cultural discussion. By their willfully spartan, often punishing nature, I think shooters tend to attract those with genuine affection for their hobbies, rather than posers or shelf queens.

[Bloodreign]

The thing that bugs me about the 2 SFC Sailor Moon games, the hit detection on bosses can be very iffy at times, there are times you punch the boss, and seem to hit absolutely nothing, maddening I say, very maddening (but still fun). Recently picked up Doraemon 4 and Violinist of Hamelin for the SFC (along with the SFC version of Power Instinct, because the US version doesn't have character endings), Doraemon 4 should just be called, Pits the Game. So many nice opportunities to fall to your death.

Violinist is fun, switching the girl Flute's costume reminds me of all the form switching you get to do in Demon's Crest, Enix did a fine job with the game, but the pacing is slow. Now I want Nangoku Shinen Papuwa-kun for the SFC, also from Enix.

As for Alien Soldier, I suck at it, but it's my fault, not the games. It and Gunstar Heroes are games that you can play to burn off excess adrenaline.

[Vanguard]

I deleted a post I made here earlier because I don't want to risk opening up another can of worms, but I'll just say that it's not a cop out: It's genuinely what I believe and I've had numerous arguments with Skykid here over just what kind of intrinsic value entertainment is capable of possessing. I'll leave it at that.

Yeah, I know you're sincere and didn't mean to imply that you aren't. What I mean is that the "everything is subjective" argument is too simple and incomplete to answer the question of which games are good, and what makes them good, and that it is a dead end argument that gives no room to proceed further.

[Shoryukev]

there are streamers who go at their button pushing with such fucking ferocity that it actually makes me terribly anxious i've seen people who can make even simple games seem like some kind of athletic hurdle with how loud they're smacking those buttons. do you get that kinda fury in ya??? where the clicks and clacks become rather audible?

Haha, no man, absolutely not, I don't mean I press the buttons hard in some crazed state of fury.
It's really just that, when I get engrossed in a game, I tend to press harder, in order to make sure inputs happen. It's somewhat like when people play racing games and rotate the gamepad like it would help with the steering.
It's nothing crazy. And those streamers probably act THAT deranged, because they know people are watching, so it's like a child throwing a tantrum at the slightest crap. Not cool, really.

I get like that when I play Donkey Kong AC, I really put my arcade stick and the jump button through their paces. I don't really do it at all with other games, but there's something about trying to steer barrels and jump away from those damn fireballs that makes me go into that zone of smacking the stick against the gate to really ensure that input happens that split second. Somehow in my head I think the success-rate of getting the barrel to drop is higher if I hear it click. It's not super violent or anything, but definitely louder than when I'm playing anything else.

Sometimes I purposely make click noises with my stick and buttons when playing against other people at fighters, but it's more of a diversion tactic than anything else. Loudly making a shoryuken input motion when I'm on the ground and then simply guarding when I stand up often makes an opening appear from the confusion lol.........one of the many reasons I don't like playing fighters online as much as I do in person, harder to play head-games.

[__SKYe]

Sorry I forgot to mention this:

popular youtubers and their lack of proficiency (and loud cursing at repeated deaths and general tourism) set a standard for what level of skill and understanding bring about the truest sense of appreciation,

That's quite true, but I'm willing to bet that those youtubers don't care much about the nuances/fine points of the games they play. They want viewers, and, in my opinion, cursing and yelling at everything that moves in the game, is the fastest/easiest way to do it.

Sometimes I purposely make click noises with my stick and buttons when playing against other people at fighters, but it's more of a diversion tactic than anything else. Loudly making a shoryuken input motion when I'm on the ground and then simply guarding when I stand up often makes an opening appear from the confusion lol.........

This is a legit part of the metagame in fighting games.
It can be very effective, especially in tense battles, where both players are focusing on every little thing that's happening.

The thing that bugs me about the 2 SFC Sailor Moon games, the hit detection on bosses can be very iffy at times, there are times you punch the boss, and seem to hit absolutely nothing, maddening I say, very maddening (but still fun).

Yeah, that's true (another of the points where they are not quite up to par with Final Fight. Altough FF bosses will murder you without much problem, at least the detection is consistent ).
I find this even more problematic on the first game, and you can see it even on the first boss. You have to get very close to him in order to actually hit him (he doesn't have that problem when hitting you though).

[FinalBaton]

Yep, faking moves is a big part of fighting games

The MIND GAME is BIG GAME!!





Also, I agree that belt-scrolling beat 'em ups are better when they have simple controls. My fave of all-time (and probs will never be dethroned) is Streets Of Rage 2. Gawd I love this game >_< Such masterfully crafted gameplay
When there are few attacks to choose from, you can really focus on crowd management. Plus, there's still lots of options for throws, once you've grabbed the enemy. THAT's an exemple of great compromise between simple controls YET some variety. Also the special attack doing something different wether you do it still or in movement is another example of that.

[__SKYe]

Also, I agree that belt-scrolling beat 'em ups are better when they have simple controls. My fave of all-time (and probs will never be dethroned) is Streets Of Rage 2. Gawd I love this game >_< Such masterfully crafted gameplay.
When there are few attacks to choose from, you can really focus on crowd management. Plus, there's still lots of options for throws, once you've grabbed the enemy. THAT's an exemple of great compromise between simple controls YET some variety. Also the special attack doing something different wether you do it still or in movement is another example of that.

I'd say it's even more than just being better with simple controls. It is a necessity.
Trying to be fancy with flashy combos (if they were available) in FF, for example, with 8 enemies on the screen at once, would just get you murdered in no time. Crowd control in these games is paramount, if one wishes to succeed.
And, to me, that's a big part of their charm. The focus is on the action, not in unnecessary, flashy stuff.

Which is why, like a said before, it is hard to appreciate when watching a replay/video if the viewer isn't acquainted with the genre.
Thinking about it, it is, perhaps, similar to how an inexperienced fighting games player can't appreciate the complex levels of strategy/metagame going on, in a high level match.

On Bare Knuckle 2 (and all 3 games in general), the one thing I really think it's missing, is the front throw after a grab. It is incredibly useful for crowd control, to be able to throw in both directions.
Other than that, it is an amazing game (and those soundtracks...).

[FinalBaton]

On Bare Knuckle 2 (and all 3 games in general), the one thing I really think it's missing, is the front throw after a grab.

You mean throwing them very far in front of you?
Because you can most certainly throw them in front of you, albeit close by

[__SKYe]

You mean throwing them very far in front of you?
Because you can most certainly throw them in front of you, albeit close by

Yes, I mean a long throw forward (just like the back throw).
In SOR, if you grab an enemy and press Backwards+Attack, you to a back throw. If you press Attack only, you knock them down in 1 hit, and it you press Forward+Attack, you do the 3-hit combo (with axel at least).
You can vault over an enemy, and perform a sort of backslam, but that has nearly no range.

In Final Fight, if you grab an enemy and press Backward+Attack you do a back throw, and if you press Forward+Attack, you do the equivalent throw, but forward.
Again, this is quite useful for crowd control. Not that it makes SOR bad or anything, but I wish it had that feature.

Kitten, a couple things I forgot to say:

If you pick a Final Fight game, get the Japanese version (of whatever port/sequel you get), because the censoring removed the single coolest enemy from the game(s) (Poison, and her friend/recolor Roxy) and replaced her with an ugly generic dude.

Also, check Mighty Final Fight for the NES. It is a chibi version of Final Fight, with an experience level mechanic similar to Double Dragon (NES), that plays surprisingly well. It's obviously not as good as the original, but it is one of the best for the NES.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Hey, kitten (meant to respond to this earlier but forgot) - several pages ago you put down a list of your favorite NES games that included Dynamite Batman. Did you happen to mean the first one, or is the second one actually very good? I always had the impression it was kind of dicey, but maybe that was wrong.

[WelshMegalodon]

Stuck on Stage 3 in a game with four stages, would you believe it?

Jump+Down+Attack & grab in particular, doesn't seem to work as nicely as in the FF games, though is is simply a very minor flaw.

I think you might have to input the command a tad late for it to combo. Kind of like Kyo's Jump + B >> combo in the King of Fighters games, I guess. (EDIT: Kyo's jumping B stays out forever. I must have been thinking of some other character.)

These are very annoying, and I don't really have a strategy yet, but as you say, I find that trying to hit them out of their roll is not too effective, as oftentimes, it seems as if the attack just goes over their head.

Hmm, so the health-draining move is best?

You can hit rolling Heavy Shades out of their roll in Chibiusa mode. I think Minako's Jumping Down + Attack might be able to do it as well, but I've never been able to pull it off. In any case, this 1-credit clear I found on YouTube basically does what you describe, so I'll try that.

Where the game does lose some points, is in the lack of invincibility upon knock down.
There are many times where you'll get pummeled relentlessly simply because the enemies are already attacking when you get up.
The 2nd boss, especially will destroy you if you happen to get knocked down near a wall, because he will relentlessly perform an attack, and you'll get hit everytime you get up. You might be able to escape using the health draining special, but I'm not sure.

That definitely bothered me. It's especially bad at the beginning of Stage 3.

I've occasionally experienced what you describe with Saphir, but given how easy it is to set up a throw loop with him, I don't think it's an issue there. In fact, I'd say the wall on the right side makes Saphir the easiest of the four bosses.

The thing that bugs me about the 2 SFC Sailor Moon games, the hit detection on bosses can be very iffy at times, there are times you punch the boss, and seem to hit absolutely nothing, maddening I say, very maddening (but still fun).

Yes, hit detection in the first game's Red Battler fight is just absurd. It's fortunate that the bosses in R are so easy to throw.

[Blinge]

Dun worry obscurer, you're not the worst Alien Soldier player..
game just tore me a new one.
Took a good few attempts just to beat the first boss without running out all my ammo or timing out or straight up dying

Welp that'll be my first and last post in this thread!

[Obscura]

Honestly, it's surprisingly easy to time out on the first boss! The target to hit is small. Focus on getting there with full health for that phoenix dash.

[Blinge]

Gotcha!!!!

..I don't know what a phoenix dash is.

I'll post again once I know more than nothing

[kitten]

Don't worry, it's not just you. (old forum meme) The forum in general moves a bit slower than this, usually. Contentious times and it being the weekend will contribute to the occasional blowup, in this thread's case - the last one revolved around Contra III, or as I like to think of it, The CONTRAVERSY LMAO. :O

what kinda CONTRAVERSY??? :O

Top-secret JP-exclusive training stage for EZ mode. ^__^ Both Easy and Heavy are hidden in that version; you need to piano-input ABC-ABC-ABC a few times at the title screen to unlock 'em.

i don't want to have to buy the game twice to play the cutesy stage! ;___;

i remember "heavy" not feeling like a particularly radical difference but rather pleasant, steady progression of difficulty from the earlier ones. i usually don't care much for harder modes (and often 2nd loops) in older games unless their default difficulties are dull as hell, but i feel like every once in a while, there's a thoughtful one that actually pushes the game in an interesting direction. i generally feel like a game tends to be balanced around a single difficulty, and all the modifiers revolve around ways to mostly just make it weaker.

PCE STGs do have some pretty colourful ones, I find, like Gunhed's "NORMAL DOG" / "GOD OF GAME" and Super Star Soldier's "POOR BODY" / "GO GO ENEMIES."

i believe syd mead's terraforming has "BLADE" and then "SLASH" as its two highest difficulties! too bad that game suuuuucks

Haha, no man, absolutely not, I don't mean I press the buttons hard in some crazed state of fury.
It's really just that, when I get engrossed in a game, I tend to press harder, in order to make sure inputs happen. It's somewhat like when people play racing games and rotate the gamepad like it would help with the steering.
It's nothing crazy. And those streamers probably act THAT deranged, because they know people are watching, so it's like a child throwing a tantrum at the slightest crap. Not cool, really.

i'm wondering if they just put the controller too close to their mic or something, because i've seen some otherwise very quiet people make some serious noise with their controllers.

Well, the original is always the best, but there are considerations, of course.
(snip)

hrm, hrm. thanks for the info, i'll keep this in consideration if i find myself trying to get back into the series anytime soon. might be worth picking a copy of sfc2 up, since it's -dirt- cheap. i like cartridges :B

That's quite true, but I'm willing to bet that those youtubers don't care much about the nuances/fine points of the games they play.

they certainly profess to. a lot of collectors on youtube do not even show themselves playing games for more than a few seconds while they talk in front of a large shelf full of games. anytime you see them start to get candid about progress, they'll admit not getting anywhere in difficult games or reveal through even their shortest snippets of play to be ridiculously incompetent, have lost lives/had to continue at radically early points, etc. this is more true with shooters than any other genre, but still bleeds over to action games.

Also, check Mighty Final Fight for the NES. It is a chibi version of Final Fight, with an experience level mechanic similar to Double Dragon (NES), that plays surprisingly well. It's obviously not as good as the original, but it is one of the best for the NES.

when buying a bundle of games from a friend, i was originally supposed to get mighty final fight with it, but he copped out at the last second and wanted to keep it. had previously disliked final fight and just then been convinced by another friend to get back into it. he was courteous and gave me the option to decline, but i didn't want to tear him away from a game he wanted to keep he replaced it with mickey mouse III: yume fuusen (which is of similar value) and another game, and i ended up really liking mickey mouse III, despite it looking almost like a kuso-platformer in videos. still gotta pick a copy up for myself!

I get like that when I play Donkey Kong AC, I really put my arcade stick and the jump button through their paces. I don't really do it at all with other games, but there's something about trying to steer barrels and jump away from those damn fireballs that makes me go into that zone of smacking the stick against the gate to really ensure that input happens that split second. Somehow in my head I think the success-rate of getting the barrel to drop is higher if I hear it click. It's not super violent or anything, but definitely louder than when I'm playing anything else.

hahaha, man, when i was a kid i used to get in my head pressing a button harder or pressing certain directions meant something better might happen. still remember holding different directions and b with all my might when trying to catch a pokemon after throwing the ball for good luck. there are probably still bits of that kind of superstition that subconsciously creep into my head during play.

Hey, kitten (meant to respond to this earlier but forgot) - several pages ago you put down a list of your favorite NES games that included Dynamite Batman. Did you happen to mean the first one, or is the second one actually very good? I always had the impression it was kind of dicey, but maybe that was wrong.

there's only one dynamite batman! :O

i'm referring to what is known as "batman: return of the joker" on the nes. i'm curious what other game you thought i could be referring to: the movie game? the gb game? the gb game is curiously referred to as "return of the joker" in both territories, and has nothing to do with the nes game.

i really love dynamite batman a lot and consider it to be sunsoft's finest batman game. there are a few rough portions (particularly on your first playthrough), but it is a damn satisfying game to no miss and absolutely gorgeous.

[Obscura]

(This is in response to Blinge)

You know that invincible dash move you have on down + jump?

When you have full health and do it, it turns into what's known as a phoenix dash. It costs you a little bit of health, but sets you on fire while you do it. Phoenix dashing through an enemy deals massive damage.