Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[kitten]

I don't think I'd enjoy going for a Bucky no-miss, tbh. I've definitely cleared it with only a handful of deaths, but its relatively long duration, abundance of sudden deaths and conversely not-that-extreme overall difficulty make me want to keep it relatively casual.

i actually agree with you, here, but it's a game i've gone back to enough times that i can't help but want to have it under my belt. it's a massive conceit and by no means a way i would suggest to play the game, however.

I found out about it relatively recently, and thought it was both intriguing and terrifying. Just beforehand I'd been learning how to no-damage Yellow Planet's opening snakes, so I felt a bit vindicated upon learning of the mode's existence. Now that might be an interesting (and unbearably painful) no-miss. >:3

it's tough! like, really tough! your first wake-up call is that portion of the green planet where there's a ton of those weird, elongated toad ships flying by. it becomes obvious that some parts of this game were fucking absolutely not made with 1-hit death in mind. most portions of the game take on an interesting new light, but large portions of the yellow planet, that shrinking iceberg bit in blue, the aforementioned bit in green, and a few parts all throughout the toad mothership will have you dying dozens of times. a no miss of this would be significantly more difficult than a no miss of holy diver, almost without question. the degree of memorization would have to be utterly superb, and you are seriously at the mercy of one thing going very, very slightly wrong. perhaps to those with an extreme penchant for memorization, it might be easier than the raw execution required in holy diver, but even then, i'm kind of doubting it.

if you attempt this one, good luck! it might be the strength of nail needed to finally penetrate your hog.

[soprano1]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017- ... the-making
https://youtu.be/f3CTqTzkgZQ
Damn, manly!

[Obscura]

Like I've said, I can't abide by outright shitposting here. 3: Tell the truth or I'll have to correct the record. Apparently, the humiliation you received last time you tried that (all of a day or so ago!) was so severe, you've blacked out the memory. Want some more? I can still get those links and many besides, just ask.

Poor BIL, doesn't realize the shameful part is the "in denial" part, not the "graphics whore" part.

But go ahead and keep up your denial.

Here's the issue though. Just because a good game is appealing to people who aren't able to play it well, that doesn't mean it's a required attribute. It's an asset, just like every potential quality a game can have. I consider Rainbow Islands one of the best arcade games created, but what's keeping it from a perfect 10/10 in my book is that it just isn't fun to play for a beginner. The rainbows will feel awkward and fickle when you haven't yet achieved an intuitive feel for the controls, and that makes the game difficult to get into for a lot of people. This doesn't keep it from being an amazing game once you do have a feel for the controls. I have played the game a lot, and cleared it multiple times, but whether I do make it to the end is never set in stone, which is why the game continues to be fun for me to play.

The problem with this, especially in the context of an arcade game, is who is going to spend their time getting good when it's not fun in the first place? It's not like anyone is being made to play a particular videogame. There's thousands of options out there -- why play the one that isn't fun, even if that's temporary, when many of the thousands of other options will be?

[Durandal]

Here's the issue though. Just because a good game is appealing to people who aren't able to play it well, that doesn't mean it's a required attribute. It's an asset, just like every potential quality a game can have. I consider Rainbow Islands one of the best arcade games created, but what's keeping it from a perfect 10/10 in my book is that it just isn't fun to play for a beginner. The rainbows will feel awkward and fickle when you haven't yet achieved an intuitive feel for the controls, and that makes the game difficult to get into for a lot of people. This doesn't keep it from being an amazing game once you do have a feel for the controls. I have played the game a lot, and cleared it multiple times, but whether I do make it to the end is never set in stone, which is why the game continues to be fun for me to play.

The problem with this, especially in the context of an arcade game, is who is going to spend their time getting good when it's not fun in the first place? It's not like anyone is being made to play a particular videogame. There's thousands of options out there -- why play the one that isn't fun, even if that's temporary, when many of the thousands of other options will be?

I'd wager that's a difference in mentality in terms of how much one values their time, some people are willing to give a game more time to seep in for various reasons, while some might drop it for the slightest reasons if it doesn't immediately click and deem it shit for failing to do so. Though a lot of people who end up sticking with a game might end up not regretting their decision to do so at all. I sure remember my first time in S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

[BIL]

Poor BIL, doesn't realize the shameful part is the "in denial" part, not the "graphics whore" part.

But go ahead and keep up your denial.

Hey, it's Obscura! What are you doing back here in this veritable nest of enemies, buddy? Obviously you are as much an "enemy" to me as a shit-clogged toilet is to a plumber, but I'm still surprised you'd come back for another blast of the power washer. I guess if you're stuck on playing forum shrink, I'll give it a go as well, to see if it's any fun. So... this looks like some mean narcissistic rage on your part, in response to a perceived wound on your totally hardcore and cool game critic shtick! Hey, this is fun - I could see why a shit-flinging poseur would prefer this to assembling rational arguments. :O

I was just readying another progress report on my latest Alien Soldier revisit, with a hearty reference to your "BUHHH, HOW COULD THEY MAKE ACT I EASIER THAN THE OTHER THREE, WHYYY" fig leaf! You know, the one you donned after I put a bullet in your "its like punch out lmao" charade (sorry about that).

I do have to ask, why are you back here? If it's to continue showing your ass to my shoe, I'd rather you take it elsewhere. I think where we left it previously is just right for future generations - the guy who compared AS to Punch Out is exposed as a total scrub fraud (with video proof even), then proceeds to desperately fig-leaf and backpedal while accusing the guy praising its mechanics of being a graphics whore. That's a pretty tidy result!

The problem with this, especially in the context of an arcade game, is who is going to spend their time getting good when it's not fun in the first place? It's not like anyone is being made to play a particular videogame. There's thousands of options out there -- why play the one that isn't fun, even if that's temporary, when many of the thousands of other options will be?

Some of us will stick out the initial learning curve, for whatever reason. Deal with it, fuckface. :3

(haha, just kidding - this is another fig leaf isn't it - "Alien Soldier for the Sega Mega Drive would never have worked in an arcade! It's shit, see?!")

[Obscura]

> Namecalls and deflects.
> Calls for rational argument

Cool story, bro! Unfortunately, you still haven't demonstrated that the multiple people portraying Alien Soldier as a dull call-and-response game are wrong. Yelling "scrub!" repeatedly isn't a real counterargument, BTW.

But I'm sure all of your friends will think you're cool... on the internet.

[Durandal]

dull call-and-response game

If the outset of the game is that obvious, shouldn't you have already 1lc'd it by now, or is there a process involved in figuring out the calls and responses?

[EmperorIng]

Since I've now gotten myself a Panasonic 3DO I am playing games made for real graphics whores. Or should I say, R.E.A.L. GRAFXWHORES






I can't hear your pointless weeb bickering over the FUTURE, which is what I got right here.

[BIL]

> Calls for rational argument

The time for that has passed, I'm afraid. I gave you plenty of rational arguments a few pages back (they're still there, don't worry), all ignored or backpedalled away from. It's your usual pattern, and it's gotten very boring.

Cool story, bro! Unfortunately, you still haven't demonstrated that the multiple people portraying Alien Soldier as a dull call-and-response game are wrong.

If by multiple people you mean the one guy who just about made it to the start of Act II, then died, just like you, I did respond to him. The same response I gave you, unsurprisingly - if you're playing it as a call-and-response game, you're playing slowly and awkwardly and in a manner that'll soon get you killed. (funnily enough, after Act I, both of you promptly get killed! It's like I'm psychic!)

Want a link? I don't want to put the effort in if you're just going to ignore this, like everything else.

Yelling "scrub!" repeatedly isn't a real counterargument, BTW.

In itself? I agree, of course. But interrogating someone, finding their knowledge utterly lacking (duhhh what is zoning lmao u just zip!), then seeing video footage of them playing a soul-withering shitty credit definitely helps the charge stick.

But I'm sure all of your friends will think you're cool... on the internet.

You know what the hell of it is, chaps will occasionally say they love my posts. I'm just trying to be a decent poster is all. It feels nice though. :O Out of curiosity, does it feel hardcore and badass to have "enemies" on the internet?

[soprano1]

Don't worry BIL, unless you start spouting horrible shit, i'll always consider you a great poster, for all that's worth.

[Obscura]

If the outset of the game is that obvious, shouldn't you have already 1lc'd it by now, or is there a process involved in figuring out the calls and responses?

The latter. There's an absurd number of bosses, and you have to memorize which animation is the tell for every attack for every boss. It's more like studying a list of words for a spelling bee than playing a sidescroller.

[BIL]

Don't worry BIL, unless you start spouting horrible shit, i'll always consider you a great poster, for all that's worth.

Thanks! :O I wonder what it's like to be a total cool badass with enemies though, like Obscura! Maybe the trick is to spend more time posting about games than playing them...?

There's an absurd number of bosses, and you have to memorize which animation is the tell for every attack for every boss. It's more like studying a list of words for a spelling bee than playing a sidescroller.

Translating from scrub to human: "I have seen just over a quarter of the game's bosses, while playing the slower PAL version at such a pitifully low level I never made it beyond monkey see, monkey do call/response play. I soon got fucked in the ass trying to subsist at this level, before giving up. This was five years ago btw. Regardless, I am totally expert on Alien Soldier and not at all a poseur fraud hipster scrub."

Hey this kinda works! :O Your posts are a lot less offensively ignorant like this.

[Obscura]

http://www.learntocounter.com/the-hundr ... s-fallacy/

Again, "YOU'RE BAD AT THE GAME, SO YOU CANT CRITICIZE IT" isn't a real argument. It's a deflection.

[Durandal]

If the outset of the game is that obvious, shouldn't you have already 1lc'd it by now, or is there a process involved in figuring out the calls and responses?

The latter. There's an absurd number of bosses, and you have to memorize which animation is the tell for every attack for every boss. It's more like studying a list of words for a spelling bee than playing a sidescroller.

Isn't there some form of randomization or real-time application of learned skills and reflexes required, or would the list of button inputs for each playthrough look almost identical?

[BIL]

Yawn. Already covered a few pages back. You've even posted that article before.

Here, I'll even copy/paste the relevant part:

I've never once said, or even implied, that you must be good at Alien Soldier before you can criticise it. As I just reiterated in the above post, I'm saying you need to understand how the game works before you can criticise how it works, or in your case liken it to Punch Out. You blatantly had no idea why a player would ever not just teleport ad infinitum, I explained this is a great way to waste ammo due to the game's mechanical and boss designs, and soon enough get actively punished. Then radio silence from you.

I don't mind (you know I am a softy), but don't come back as if you've not just been comprehensively exposed as ignorant. It's tiring and really shits up the thread!

Like I asked a few posts back - why are you here? If it's to salvage your ego, or score points, that's not going to work I'm afraid. This also isn't the place. I don't know what is, TBH! Probably some shitty other forum I don't visit.

Isn't there some form of randomization or real-time application of learned skills and reflexes required

i) yes. unlike, say, The Super Shinobi, which Obscura likes because it lets him stagger along while being stabbed and shot.

ii) assuming this isn't a rhetorical question, you are wasting your time. Obscura does not understand and cannot play Alien Soldier for shit, to the point he finds it comparable to Punch Out.

[WelshMegalodon]

Is Obscura still posting?

I'm leaning toward Rei and Minako as the best characters to use in R, though Minako's faster Jump + Attack special makes her slightly more effective. Makoto deals very good damage but is hampered by her short throw range and slightly slower overall speed. Ami, on the other hand, has a very good throw range but deals slightly less damage and can't punch grabbed enemies before throwing them like the others can, though her throw benefits from fast startup time. Perhaps more importantly, I think her Jump + Attack special might also hit a bit too high to reliably knock down Heavy Shades, in addition to taking a while to come out. As for Usagi, her walking speed is slow and her jump arc very narrow, which makes the Esmeraude fight needlessly difficult.

Also, what the hell, Bandai?

Spoiler

[Blinge]

Oh jeez you're posting this guy again.
The guy who wrote a veritable book to say MOBA's suck, because he just doesn't like the genre I assume..
However first he had to write several essays on why he has a different name for them and why he's qualified to say anything about them..

I dislike the genre too but I'm ashamed to share an opinion with this self congratulating windbag. I bet he's a real hit at parties.

Hang on, that title.. http://www.learntocounter.com/why-dota-sucks-9/
Is Dis U?

[Obscura]

Oh jeez you're posting this guy again.
The guy who wrote a veritable book to say MOBA's suck, because he just doesn't like the genre I assume..
However first he had to write several essays on why he has a different name for them and why he's qualified to say anything about them..

I dislike the genre too but I'm ashamed to share an opinion with this self congratulating windbag. I bet he's a real hit at parties.

Hang on, that title.. http://www.learntocounter.com/why-dota-sucks-9/
Is Dis U?

Nope, it's not me. My only contribution to the front-page articles on the site is the Deus Ex: Human Revolution review.

@Durandal -- the order of attacks is randomized on some bosses, but that doesn't make the resulting test of memory any more fun.

[kitten]

Also, what the hell, Bandai?

Spoiler

do a google search for "jellax" with safe search off, real quick. that was a very curiously popular monster of the week

[Durandal]

Nope, it's not me. My only contribution to the front-page articles on the site is the Deus Ex: Human Revolution review.

mine's better anyways

@Durandal -- the order of attacks is randomized on some bosses, but that doesn't make the resulting test of memory any more fun.

That does bring up an interesting question of where the line between interesting and repetitive boss battles are drawn.
Inevitably, the longer you have a go at the bosses in games like Ys, Furi, and nearly every video game that features boss fights, their attacks can be broken down to patterns with their respective tells and the means to counter them unless they go full Vergil cuhrazy. Through repeated deaths you will learn how the boss works and then splat him once you get the full hang of the fight. However, from some level you could conclude that boss battles then end up being a case of Simon Says, as if they were long strings of quick-time events disguised through gameplay elements because if the boss does that, all you need to do is this to win. Is that just a inherent problem with boss battles as you describe it with Alien Soldier, or can there be more to boss battles?

[soprano1]

I'm surprised to see the SFC Sailor Moon sidescrollers mentioned. Graphics and music aside (since it's not fair to compare them), how are they compared to Gazelle's 1995 arcade game?

[Obscura]

Nope, it's not me. My only contribution to the front-page articles on the site is the Deus Ex: Human Revolution review.

mine's better anyways

@Durandal -- the order of attacks is randomized on some bosses, but that doesn't make the resulting test of memory any more fun.

That does bring up an interesting question of where the line between interesting and repetitive boss battles are drawn.
Inevitably, the longer you have a go at the bosses in games like Ys, Furi, and nearly every video game that features boss fights, their attacks can be broken down to patterns with their respective tells and the means to counter them unless they go full Vergil cuhrazy. Through repeated deaths you will learn how the boss works and then splat him once you get the full hang of the fight. However, from some level you could conclude that boss battles then end up being a case of Simon Says, as if they were long strings of quick-time events disguised through gameplay elements because if the boss does that, all you need to do is this to win. Is that just a inherent problem with boss battles as you describe it with Alien Soldier, or can there be more to boss battles?

The big difference with Alien Soldier vs. Ys is how easy i-frames are in AS. In Ys, you have to position yourself correctly on a nearly infinite number of points on a 2D plane. AS gives you tons of invincibility frames on your dodge move, which is abusable as all hell, at least in the first act (I have no opinion on whether that changes later, since I haven't played past that point).

Ys also isn't a boss rush. Zako-smacking is always going to be more variable than boss fighting, and breaks up the proceedings. An Ys boss rush might get tiring.

(Also, your DX:HR review is indeed quite good!)

[BIL]

The big difference with Alien Soldier vs. Ys is how easy i-frames are in AS. In Ys, you have to position yourself correctly on a nearly infinite number of points on a 2D plane. AS gives you tons of invincibility frames on your dodge move, which is abusable as all hell, at least in the first act (I have no opinion on whether that changes later, since I haven't played past that point).

Progress! Good show buddy. 3:<

[Obscura]

The big difference with Alien Soldier vs. Ys is how easy i-frames are in AS. In Ys, you have to position yourself correctly on a nearly infinite number of points on a 2D plane. AS gives you tons of invincibility frames on your dodge move, which is abusable as all hell, at least in the first act (I have no opinion on whether that changes later, since I haven't played past that point).

Progress! Good show buddy. 3:<

I guess you missed where I conceded that point several pages ago, but wondered why anyone would persist with something lame long enough to get there in the first place.

[BIL]

No, I did indeed note that concession you made to me, after I angrily relayed the tragedy of my paying big bucks for Punch Out's Simon Says simulator, only to discover it was nothing like Alien Soldier's unlimitedly aggressive free-form boss eviscerator. But I'm still impressed you made it to someone else more or less unprompted! That's the only reason I cared to begin with tbh. 3;

[Durandal]

Nope, it's not me. My only contribution to the front-page articles on the site is the Deus Ex: Human Revolution review.

mine's better anyways

@Durandal -- the order of attacks is randomized on some bosses, but that doesn't make the resulting test of memory any more fun.

That does bring up an interesting question of where the line between interesting and repetitive boss battles are drawn.
Inevitably, the longer you have a go at the bosses in games like Ys, Furi, and nearly every video game that features boss fights, their attacks can be broken down to patterns with their respective tells and the means to counter them unless they go full Vergil cuhrazy. Through repeated deaths you will learn how the boss works and then splat him once you get the full hang of the fight. However, from some level you could conclude that boss battles then end up being a case of Simon Says, as if they were long strings of quick-time events disguised through gameplay elements because if the boss does that, all you need to do is this to win. Is that just a inherent problem with boss battles as you describe it with Alien Soldier, or can there be more to boss battles?

The big difference with Alien Soldier vs. Ys is how easy i-frames are in AS. In Ys, you have to position yourself correctly on a nearly infinite number of points on a 2D plane. AS gives you tons of invincibility frames on your dodge move, which is abusable as all hell, at least in the first act (I have no opinion on whether that changes later, since I haven't played past that point).

Ys also isn't a boss rush. Zako-smacking is always going to be more variable than boss fighting, and breaks up the proceedings. An Ys boss rush might get tiring.

(Also, your DX:HR review is indeed quite good!)

I figured that could be part of the pacing, where scrubs can first mess around with the starter bosses without getting kicked out of the game immediately, only to get their teeth smashed in by the next boss as they figure out how to deal with the earlier bosses faster so they can waste less time getting to the harder ones. At which point it becomes a contest of speed and long-term ammo management instead of just survival, kind of like how scoring systems make even the comparatively easy first stages of a shmup worth mastering and paying attention to. Having a difficulty curve is always nice, Dariusburst would be rather painful to beginners if Great Thing was the first boss instead of Iron Fossil. I dunno to what extent the later bosses can be cheesed (or not) since I never got that far into AS myself, though.

[BIL]

I figured that could be part of the pacing, where scrubs can first mess around with the starter bosses without getting kicked out of the game immediately, only to get their teeth smashed in by the next boss as they figure out how to deal with the earlier bosses faster so they can waste less time getting to the harder ones.

This, pretty much. Act I is the beginner phase and will let you experiment relatively freely with the teleport. The mechanic becomes progressively more of a liability from Act II onward, precisely for the same speed and range that's so abusable in Act I.

In other words, filling in the teleport's weaknesses with the rest of the mechanical suite is almost entirely optional in Act I. It's critical further in.

Relying on the teleport alone in Act I is still relatively poor playing, mind - you can demolish it to infinitely greater degrees by making full use of Epsilon's moveset, and playing actively, rather than passively waiting to dodge. I've got a helluva >5sec Honeyviper takedown readied for my next recording, it's rad.

First, though, I've got to master reaching Melon Bread, that sneaky carbohydrate-rich motherfucker, with a Phoenix ready to go. His snowfly bodyguards have finally started to give way to my ultimate weapon config that lets me have my Buster cake and make them eat Lancer too.

[Bloodreign]

I'm surprised to see the SFC Sailor Moon sidescrollers mentioned. Graphics and music aside (since it's not fair to compare them), how are they compared to Gazelle's 1995 arcade game?

A bit less intense, though the Mega Drive Sailor Moon beat em up is fast, but not as many enemies per screen. The music on the home games sound richer than the arcade music IMO.

Also, lets gets this back to gaming, not bitching about Alien Soldier for 100 pages.

[BrianC]

Every time I peek into this thread, 2 or 3 more pages have passed. I love the sudden surge of activity, but there's a lot of stuff I want to comment on and join the discussion in, and it's kinda moot when it's already two pages ago.

please, god, do talk about something from 2 or 3 pages ago, when things worth talking about were being discussed. this is a sincere plea

I did post about Leynos in an attempt to change the subject. I had a hard time finding the JP ROM (NOT asking for it) because no intro lists it under Juusou Kihei Leynos. I renamed it to Assault Suits Leynos (I know it's supposed to be "suit", but the title screen has "suits"). Love that Engrish.

I should give the Sailor Moon games a try on SD2SNES.

[Bloodreign]

BrianC, you should, and give the MD one a run too. Be warned, the fist SFC Sailor Moon is slower in pacing, but R is quite a bit faster, but shorter. I bought both of the SFC offerings months ago because I enjoy the games. The MD one is too rich for my blood though.