Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Squire Grooktook]

However, it's not that I don't believe you when you talk about how Capcom did all of those things with each of their games, it's just that when I sit down to play them, I don't see it. I don't see the presumed depth of the gameplay, because it's not readily apparent unless you already know how to approach those games.

Yeah, I can understand.

For me, the thing that tripped me up for a while was viewing them in terms of "dodging" like other action games. "Why are all these enemy attacks instantaneous? Am I just supposed to loop the ai's?"

The big epiphany was viewing it in terms of fighting game footsies, where you're working on timing and spacing attacks, poking, baiting and whiff punishing, pre-empting, outranging, crowd control, guard breaking, etc. It's still very improvisational (the best games in the genre tend to be *very* random) and has room for intense defensive reactions (reactive side stepping when an enemy gets in range, etc.), but you have to view it through a different lens.

All that good stuff, that's the brawler equivalent of "dodging" in an stg. The part that's really basic and fundamental and present in almost every game, but is deep enough to be the foundation of a genre, and that you can feel your skills growing and transferring from game to game when you play.

From there on out, you get the gimmicks, equivalent to weapon or scoring systems in stg that add an extra layer of uniqueness and depth:

https://youtu.be/9GgZTIqr4OA?t=2m33s

^^^Learning to consistently move and strike like this in AVP is akin to mastering a good scoring system. Never truly consistent performance, but pulling it off is an enormous rush.

[drauch]

Speaking of AVP, y'all see NECA is putting out these bad boys?

http://news.toyark.com/2018/02/18/toy-f ... ack-289132

[BIL]

TNWA has been on my radar for a while. How does that compare to Spartan?

Superbly! TNWA seamlessly bridges Spartan and mid-90s beltscrolling. Single-plane action with the addition of combo, grappling and guard mechanics. It has the characteristic endless zako waves of Spartan and its own direct predecessor, but there's a greater focus on unique enemy types - sniper, bulldozer, harasser, blocker et al - deployed in roiling RNG-driven mixups. Crowd control is critically important, facilitated by shearing combo enders, as well as thrown enemies flattening their comrades... the latter doesn't do much damage, but it frees up vital space, and sets up the direct attacks that will. Four enemies onscreen may not sound a lot, but you'll quickly be pincered and overrun without good CC fundamentals.

Controls are simple and immaculately responsive: [Attack] [Jump] [Bomb] and that's it. All three characters have lots of special attacks, grapples and dodges to pull off with simple dpad+button combinations - EG, hold [DWN+ATK] for Kunoichi's grapple flurry, or hit [Jump] while walking for Ninja's jet dash. No command motions or anything of that sort; it's all very discoverable with a little experimentation.

Spoiler

^ hold [away] during a jumpkick; does near-nil damage but it's great for getting around! Neutral or forward for a combo starter.

Combos are Final Fight-style (land two or three regular hits to enable a big finish), with super combos executed by holding [up] with a full meter. Intriguingly you can land the requisite hits, then break off to nail an unrelated third party with the finish... at expert level, whacking a few zako to prime the finish, then flattening their boss becomes second nature. Like in any good brawler, the diagonals are happily accepted in lieu of [up] or [down], so punching out a couple chumps then turning on a dime to unleash Ninja's rocket fist on a more deserving target is a snap.

Combat is both technique-intensive and gratifyingly brutal, particularly as Ninja, who must rank as one of the most unorthodox yet remorseless body breakers of the genre. Ninja doesn't "jump" or "dash," rather he uses rocket propulsion to send his one-ton frame smashing onto/into the target before beating, choking and finally breaking them over his knee. It's a testament to Shunichi Taniguchi and co's talents that such an icon of pain can excel in a game where even the "uncensored" JP version lacks red blood.



You weren't making that sad face thirty seconds ago!

JP is the definitive version for a more pressing reason - as noted in my previous post, the Western ones delete Katanas, overcompensating with Claws to make up the difference. It's still a great time regardless, but if you've got the choice go with JP. Dumb change, should've just spraypainted some lycra on 'em! Or was it "DUN HIT GIRLZ" again? In that case, Phasers (above) have some decidedly generous racks and they sure don't sound too masculine when I knock 'em the fuck out! Oh well. Guess dem buns were just too hot for Western children. Holy baked goods, Batman!

The one caveat here is, Kamaitachi is an unbridled EZMODE character, his reach decimating crowds the others must brave toe-to-toe. He is easily made up for by Ninja and Kunoichi, however, who are starkly divergent in every regard besides the technical expertise needed to reach their full dominating potentials. I wouldn't notice a thing amiss if they were the only two. As it is, Kamaitachi has some cool unique angles of his own, but don't think you've seen TNWA at its cagey, infernally meddling best with him alone!

I'm a bit harried by IRL Bullshit at the moment, hence not being around as much... but this is one of those games that I simply must give its due. ^_~ Desert island material for technique-loving violence aficionados, easily.

>My ancient, shaky and very outdated Ninja Hard 1CC that might still be of use, as a character primer.

Way too much Crouch P spam for my liking. This was long before I learned the crouching is for losers! Basically. Standing, it takes three pokes to floor you - easily enough time to get your guard up, or hit back, or even move in close for a grapple. Crouching = the slightest touch will put you on your ass. Embarrassing, and also empties your meter. Of course some high attacks will flatten a standing player while missing a croucher, but don't think of the latter as an all-purpose refuge!

Also not enough dominating i-frame use. These days I get two or more enemies in the corner, and it's ass-smashing time:

Spoiler

>Perikles's Kunoichi Hard ALL, which likewise will give you a quick glimpse of the character's extended moveset. The two movesets on GameFAQs are good but a little shaky and/or hard to read... do ask here if you give the game a shot!

[Stevens]

Thanks for taking the time. Will check it out.

[__SKYe]

Man, I've been away for awhile but couldn't pass the chance to preach about beat-em-ups.

I never understood belt scrolling beat'em ups. I can't beat them, and I never had fun playing any of them. I realise how popular and respected they are, so I really hope that one day I'll be able to "get it", but I just can't figure it out. What am I supposed to do?

Tried popping in Mighty Final Fight today, hoping that the barebones NES gameplay and graphics of the game would make the gameplay more immediately approachable to me, but I'm actually really impressed just how much this game completely feels like a 16-bit beat'em up, for better or worse.

Definitely for the better, MFF is a great game.

As standard for the genre, it's incredibly repetitive. Just keep walking right while fighting copies of the same guy over and over. As far as I can tell, the best way to approach the game is to find a way to attack the enemies without giving them the chance to get close enough to you to get the first punch in, which as per genre standards seems to usually mean a jumping attack. Over and over again. Over and over. Occasionally I'll take damage, but I'm not really able to tell why. Some times even without the enemy pulling off a visible attack.
I'm completely unable to understand how I should approach the game. As far as I can tell, there's only so much I can do with my moveset which seems to be limited to aforementioned jumping attack and a basic punch-combo, as well as the special attack you do by pressing both buttons, but which eats your health when used to attack enemies.
So I seem to move back and forth between boring repetitive moves to cheese my way through without getting hit, or getting my ass kicked without any idea what I can do about it. Obviously I'm not playing the game the way I'm supposed to, it's just that I have no idea what else I can do.

The best advice I can give you is: don't do these boring tactics.
I speak from experience, as stopping doing this is exactly what made me love Bare Knuckle 1 again, and paved the way to allow me to enjoy the genre at a greater level.
That doesn't mean that you shouldn't use jump kicks -- it's a perfectly valid move to close in and/or start a combo -- but really, you should just observe each enemy type and see how you can best deal with them.

In Mighty Final Fight, for example:

The slow, standard mook can be safely approached and dealt with without any trouble. He will only attack you if you linger close for too long.
The mohawk guy is more dangerous, not only is he fast, but he'll sometimes out-punch you if you get close (or let him get close). You can jump kick him to score a knock down, get close to him, and punch him as he's getting up.
The El Gados will throw knives or do a spinning slash attack if you're on the same lane as them. Bait them into performing either, get close and beat them up.
The big guys that block can be dealt with by jump stunning and grabbing them. If you let them approach you, they'll kick and knock you down.

And so on. As it's been said, it's the variety in the formations that make the games good. There's not much in MFF, given the low enemy numbers, though.

If you want to get into the genre, my advice would be start with the cream of the crop. No offense to Mighty Final Fight (never played it) but what you want is a magnum opus like Capcom's Alien Vs Predator, a game where the movement mechanics on the most basic character (P.Warrior) are so deep and flexible that it becomes a game onto itself.

Solid advice, but I'll add that MFF plays nearly as good as any other FF and has the advantage of being easier (2 enemies at once only), so it might be a better place to start for someone who's not too into the genre.
It's also worth noting that there are several schools of BEUs (besides all the other orphaned games in the genre), and even though they all belong in the same genre, they each have their own intricacies and tend to favor different styles of play. Of course, you then have different flavours of the same school (like Capcom's later games vs Final Fight) and the rest of the genres library.

Also while I do think the sub-genre is respectable, that's not to say it's all gold! Just like STG, there are a lot of formulaic clones which might differ only in the subtlest of nuances (if at all). I don't know just how adverse you are to emulation, but this is why I recommend Capcom's library in particular: Capcom was basically the leading innovator in the genre, and if you play through their brawlers sequentially, you can see how each game they released worked to innovate over the last one. Starting with Final Fights simple "pure spacing" action, introducing parry mechanics in King of Dragon's and Knights of The Round, refining movement mechanics and variety in Dungeons and Dragon's, AVP, and Armored Warriors, etc. Each of their games brings something new to the table which genuinely increases depth.

Yeah, but the same happens in every genre. As for BEUs, I think what separate the good games from the not-so-good is how well the gameplay engine is implemented, rather than what sort of moveset/mechanics a particular game has.
As diverse as Capcom's catalog is, all their games have a very well implemented gameplay engine which makes them a joy to play.

For example, compare Final Fight to Rushing Beat (two similar games in gameplay and movesets), and you'll see that it is the gameplay engine itself that makes FF infinitely better than RB.

Ah, another set of GIFs is overdue, to convert some more souls to the genre.

By the way Sumez, did you 1CC the game? And have you played the Bare Knuckle games?

[BrianC]

Oh the game design itself is nice. It's just that SMB is really difficult to control using a joystick. There's a constant fine subconscious adjustment of Mario's velocity when you're playing with a D-pad that just isn't possible to recreate with a joystick. At least not without a ton of training and mental adjustment.

I used to think the same thing (VS. SMB being difficult to control using a joystick) before I started playing the game more and started using joysticks more often (still mostly use a pad, though). Mental adjustment and training is the key here, but I found a great deal of platformers to control just fine with a digital joystick. It's funny, though. One AC platformer I like quite a bit, Pac-Land, uses only buttons and still controls great.

Speaking of AVP, y'all see NECA is putting out these bad boys?

http://news.toyark.com/2018/02/18/toy-f ... ack-289132

I almost read that as NECO and I was thinking, "What does chalky candy have to do with AVP?".

edit: Doh. It's spelled NECCO.

[Sumez]

__SKYe, thank a lot for your post, it's actually very motivating for me!

By the way Sumez, did you 1CC the game? And have you played the Bare Knuckle games?

Nah, I just popped it in once to test it out.

I have played the Bare Knuckle games periphically in very short bursts as with most other stuff in the genre, but never to any extend that really matters.
I have the first Streets of Rage in a Mega Games compilation, and I've considered buying the second game (EU version) before the prices take off too much. Where would you suggest starting?
I absolutely adore the SoR2 soundtrack.

[__SKYe]

Nah, I just popped it in once to test it out.

It's a rather easy game, for the genre, so you shouldn't have too much trouble after a while.
You get several extends thoughout the game (and can get up to 4 more on the bonus rounds), you get health extends and refills when you "level up", Double Dragon FC-style, and the 2 enemies limit helps trmendously as well.
Capcom did a marvelous job at replicating the FF gameplay on the Famicom, and I was very pleasantly surprised when I first played it, because I did not expect this level of quality on an 8-bit game (I expected more of a DD1 FC's rougher gameplay).

I have played the Bare Knuckle games periphically in very short bursts as with most other stuff in the genre, but never to any extend that really matters.
I have the first Streets of Rage in a Mega Games compilation, and I've considered buying the second game (EU version) before the prices take off too much. Where would you suggest starting?
I absolutely adore the SoR2 soundtrack.

Overall SOR 2 is the best. SOR 3 isn't as good but still a pretty fun game to play nonetheless. It is also easier than the second game, though you want the JP version on this one, as unlike SOR 2 where the regional changes are purely cosmetic, its US counterpart is much harder and is missing some of the extra characters, besides the usual sprite censoring.
So SOR 2 is also the most accessible, as a copy from any region will give you the proper experience.

I also very much enjoy SOR 1, though I admit it pales in comparison to the subsequent entries if you play it expecting a similar experience to SOR 2/3. I find that the best way to enjoy the first game is to treat it like a different game altogether otherwise you can't help but feel disappointed.

I'm somewhat biased, of course, since it was the first BEU I ever played (also owned it on a Mega Games cart, back in the day) so I have many fond memories of it, though only somewhat recently have I really learned to appreciate it. It has the best soundtrack in the series though, followed closely by SOR 2.

Some parting words ( ) -- waste a few credits/runs figuring out how just how much you can get away with when fighting any particular enemy/group. For example, if you can beat an enemy type simply by approaching them and punching their guts out, then by all means do so. Any decent BEU will have some enemy types where you can't get away with this kind of tactic, so don't worry about it looking/feeling cheap.
Be cautious of approaching enemies from the front -- some games are more lenient than others in this regard, but bosses in most games tend to have better range than you, so take care.
Use (and abuse) the z-plane. Experiment on how close (depth-wise) you need to be to an enemy before you can hit them (or vice-versa).

Anyway, with some experimentation you'll eventually discover what you can and can't do, and the more you understand the genre the more fun it becomes to play. I guess the worst way to go at it, is to play on auto-pilot and just try to out-damage everyone with no regard to strategy. This may work on some easier difficulties, but will get you killed fast on anything harder.

[Stevens]

*cough* SOR Remake:D *cough*

Gave TNWA a shot and I have some work to do - I'm dealing with copious amounts of input lag using SNES9x. I'm going to try it using zSNES and see if that makes a difference.

I'd prefer to play it on my laptop because arcade stick, but will try loading it onto my mini if that fails me.

[WelshMegalodon]

zSNES

It'll make a difference all right, but there's no telling whether it'll be a good one.

Here is a link to higan v094. Run the performance profile. Now, byuu doesn't like it when people recommend outdated versions of his emulator, but this build was the last version to include video/audio timing analysis (which must be run before attempting to play anything), and it's obviously more accurate than ZSNES.

EDIT: higan had performance, balanced, and accuracy profiles. Mednafen has PC Engine, PlayStation, and Saturn modules. Only RetroArch and the libretro-compatible Bizhawk have emulation cores. I've been reading too many posts by RetroArch shills on Reddit slapping their terminology onto everything.

[soprano1]

Now, byuu doesn't like it when people recommend outdated versions of his emulator

Fuck byuu, use whatever gives you the best performance.

[Stevens]

Thank you sir.

I did some quick google fu and discovered that about zSNES, was almost about to give up hope.

Appreciate it

Your suggestion was aces, very playable now.

Picked the manly as fuck going to crush your skull, and the skull's of your children, Ninja. He has some cool moves and once I fiddled with the buttons a bit I discovered his atomic drop and Combat Tribes esque spin the mother fucker around till he vomits. The latter seems to be especially important for keeping the grunts at bay. Still trying to figure out uses for the block flip and the stationary hover.

Like a main Street Fighter I'm guessing there are some moves I can ignore?

[Squire Grooktook]

Hey BIL, what are your favorite lightning bolt based weapons in this genre, going by impact/oomph/aesthetic impressiveness?

[WelshMegalodon]

Not BIL, obviously, but the lightning magic you get with the golden armor and lance in Dai is definitely up there for me.

Gilius Thunderhead's magic lightning in the first Golden Axe is also neat, but a bit lacking in impact.

[BIL]

Hey BIL, what are your favorite lightning bolt based weapons in this genre, going by impact/oomph/aesthetic impressiveness?

Off the top of my head, Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru's main character has a really satisfying one. Basically, hit a small/medium-sized enemy with a fully-charged kill shot, and the excess power will leap among his comrades in a "chain lightning" effect. It's not the flashiest aesthetically, but it's a winningly vicious rendition of telekinetic carnage - the bolt jaggedly ripping through crowds to a wicked *CRACK* and cries of agony, spectacularly maimed victims left standing in its wake. It's like a ground-level glimpse of Raystorm and Kamui's equivalents, except instead of viewing an eerily dancing arc from thousands of feet above, you're in the trenches watching fuckers' heads explode and catching whiffs of ozone and Sunday roast.

Good footage is hard to find, at least last I checked, but here's a quick demo - black ninja in corner eats a full blast, his flying monk buddy suddenly isn't a problem either. For another, the would-be pincer attack from this pair of red kunoichi. (the other character, Tenkai, doesn't have this ability; rather his possession shot is stronger, which works out just as well since more slaves = more BOMBAs. Either way the game's ethos is to forego small, rapid attacks where possible, in favour of a single big bang that kills the recipient and his buddies alike)

I really like this "jumping arc" approach where something inherently unconventional like a lightning weapon is concerned. Alisia Dragoon has a really satisfying fully-charged blast, but ala Metal Black's MAX beam bomb, it's a very solid, stable thing... I prefer a bit of mechanical/aesthetic chaos. Obviously not so much that it becomes annoying - but enough that it feels less a conventional projectile, more a force of nature unleashed and god help whoever it catches.

[Squire Grooktook]

Ah ha, knew you were gonna mention Scanner Ninja ^_^ still need to find time for that one.

[BIL]

It's one of my big unfulfilled goals for this thread to get some intensive Taro content going, just gotta get a Saturn sorted out.

Just realised that is in fact a green ninja getting the ol' Darryl Revok treatment in that first clip. Going a bit cross-eyed atm. I'm sure there's at least a couple other games I can recall with notable lightning effects, will check back in over the weekend.

And speaking of cross-eyed! Crumbs, totally missed your TNWA post Stevens.

Picked the manly as fuck going to crush your skull, and the skull's of your children, Ninja. He has some cool moves and once I fiddled with the buttons a bit I discovered his atomic drop and Combat Tribes esque spin the mother fucker around till he vomits. The latter seems to be especially important for keeping the grunts at bay. Still trying to figure out uses for the block flip and the stationary hover.

The nunchaku (PPP) is also really good for general crowd control - guaranteed bidirectional knockdown, 100% invincible and safe on block. If you can't get your mitts around someone's throat and need to beat the crowd back quickly, it's a fine substitute. I really underused these properties in my old run - it's perhaps stronger as a crowd-supressing ward than a directed bludgeon.

Block flip takes some finesse; it can easily get you into trouble, but its pass-through enables tricky slips like this. Ha ha! You thought it was boss wakeup invincibility time - but now I am behind you and your ass is mine!

Nowadays I might prefer not getting into that sort of situation to begin with, but then I'm hardly an expert at this point either, just a bit more experienced... good to know move properties either way, ofc! The retreating variant I've never used much.

The stationary hover I generally avoid - it's got no range, and it's easy to stuff on both startup and recovery. Would rather use its downward-diving variant and attack directly; IIRC it's an invincible knockdown and safe on block, so it makes an excellent approach gambit (versus the crouch-dash, which can be stuffed, but gains combo-starter ability). However the stationary variant can be a useful anti-air, if you see 'em coming; likewise, the Up variant is great for catching super-jumpers, but you do have to be careful of any meddlers waiting to stuff the recovery.

Like a main Street Fighter I'm guessing there are some moves I can ignore?

I've never found much use for the Surprise Rose-esque diving stomp; seems harder to connect than it's worth, and also incredibly punishable. It does seem to do heavy damage (been a while since I looked at the official TAS readouts) but yeah. My go-to for killer damage atm is rapidly-chained atomic drops, as seen in that GIF I posted a little up the page. The game certainly leaves lots of tricky questions where maximally effective carnage is concerned, and this is just Ninja... Kunoichi is equally as vexing. Lots to work with!

[WelshMegalodon]

It's one of my big unfulfilled goals for this thread to get some intensive Taro content going, just gotta get a Saturn sorted out.

Would you believe there are people selling Saturns for under $100 on eBay right now? I wouldn't have believed it, but there they are! Though I'm curious as to whether the capture setup would be cheaper than a computer that can run Mednafen's Saturn module.

[Kino]

.

[Sumez]

I made some progress.

Had some spare time last night to pop in Mighty Final Fight again, and I thanks to SKYe's recommendations I was able to get a better approach to the game. I tried focusing on what made the enemies different, and it's actually quite intuitive once you get it. Figuring out how to initiate and utilize grabs turned out to be pretty important, too. I was playing as Haggar and started running into trouble around stage 3 or 4 - namely the constellation of one of those hunchback guys with the beard and the burly military looking guy just continued to give me trouble, and the bosses felt really luck based to me.

Tried changing to Guy for the next game, and that helped immensely. Though he doesn't seem to have access to quite as diverse a moveset (is it possible to make any good use of his level 4 special move?), his quick reactions pretty much fixed all the issues I was having, especially with the bosses which were suddenly a piece of cake, and it turns out Haggar's piledriver was pretty shitty at crowd control compared to a regular throw, despite looking pretty sweet.
By the time I reached round 5, I realised the game had suddenly clicked, and I got almost to the end of the stage with a full life bar on my last life. And even had fun doing so. Didn't manage a 1CC (got the clear on the next credit), but I can imagine someone well versed in the genre could easily get one on their first attempt, as the game really does feel very easy. Not so much for the mechanics, which really seem incredibly well done, but obviously due to the limit of two on-screen enemies at a time, which makes the game feel like a really solid beginner beat'em up to me.

I'll try going for a 1CC and then move on to a man's game, something like Double Dragon 2 maybe.

[Stevens]

The nunchaku (PPP) is also really good for general crowd control - guaranteed bidirectional knockdown, 100% invincible and safe on block. If you can't get your mitts around someone's throat and need to beat the crowd back quickly, it's a fine substitute.

Block flip takes some finesse; it can easily get you into trouble, but its pass-through enables tricky slips like this. Ha ha! You thought it was boss wakeup invincibility time - but now I am behind you and your ass is mine!

The stationary hover I generally avoid - it's got no range, and it's easy to stuff on both startup and recovery. Would rather use its downward-diving variant and attack directly; IIRC it's an invincible knockdown and safe on block, so it makes an excellent approach gambit (versus the crouch-dash, which can be stuffed, but gains combo-starter ability). However the stationary variant can be a useful anti-air, if you see 'em coming; likewise, the Up variant is great for catching super-jumpers, but you do have to be careful of any meddlers waiting to stuff the recovery.

I love anything that is safe on block

The front flip has the properties like Vega's cosmic heel in SF IV?! Fantastic. As your opponent wakes up you could use it to pass through them the same way and molest them from behind. Will be using it that shenanigan for sure.

Need to familiarize myself more with his dash commands. Seems easy enough to get in early on with forward dash to grab, but by stage three (reached the boss - stage seems harder than him) I can already see the need for a more varied plan.

I've enjoyed my recent break from shooters. Since I found the infinitely more playable JP version of Headdy I've been spending more time with it. Haven't been playing quite as much lately, but the weekends have still offered me some time.

Like I always do with games I'll find my way back to AS eventually..

[__SKYe]

Haggar is harder to play with because he requires a somewhat different play style than the other two.
With Cody and Guy you can jump+stun (Jump+Down+Attack) enemies to start a grab and proceed from there, but Haggar doesn't have one such attack. Also, you can wait near downed enemies with Cody and Guy and rapid punch as they are getting up to score a combo, but Haggar's basic punch is much too slow to do this effectively. You can do it though, but you have to time your punch right, so that you hit the enemies as they are getting up. This takes some practice because they have a bit of i-frames on getting up, so you have to delay your punch slightly to hit them.
But you don't want the chance to prey on downed enemies to go to waste when playing with Haggar, so you can do a grab just as they are getting up also with a bit of practice and proper positioning.
It goes something like this:

Spoiler

You can do this even when two enemies are on the ground close together, but you have to be fast at following up with a throw/suplex, otherwise the other enemy will hit you.

On the subject of grabs and throws, Cody and Guy's throw will actually throw enemies a fair distance but Haggar's suplex will not. In return, though, Haggar can move while holding an enemy, so you can use this to position yourself to hit another enemy when you suplex/piledrive him.

Also not sure if you're aware, but if you hold up or down while doing the standard combo (with any character). on the last hit they will throw the enemy instead. You can also use the back direction to do this, but you have to tap it just before performing the final hit, otherwise your character will just face backwards (which is what enables FF's infamous infinite combo).

Here's a few more GIFs showing a couple things:

Against the enemy that guards, you can use the fact that he blocks your attack to approach and grab him, even with Haggar, who lacks a jump-stun attack.

Spoiler

Also, note that you don't have any invincibility right after a suplex, so be careful when performing one with another enemy close by:

Spoiler

...and it turns out Haggar's piledriver was pretty shitty at crowd control compared to a regular throw, despite looking pretty sweet.

It has its use though, while also inflicting a juicy amount of damage.
I find it most useful when I want to hit another enemy with the throw but they are too far away to be hit by a suplex, since the piledriver has quite the range:

Spoiler

A bit of strategy for the bosses:

Damnd (aka Thrasher)

Spoiler

With Cody/Guy he's easier. Wait for him to move towards you, and if he starts doing bunny hops jump kick him and wait for him to just walk towards you instead. Then, you want to jump+stun him on his sprite's side closest to you -- if you jump at him and hit him too much in the middle of his sprite, he'll hit you instead.

The good:



The bad:



With Haggar it's a bit more difficult, but you can grab him by approaching him straight on the z-plane if you're feeling gutsy. The timing is strict, and you must be neatly aligned with him vertically, otherwise he'll pound you instead.



Of course this is a very easy boss if you just jump kick him every time he moves towards you, so take your pick.

Sodom (aka Katana)

Spoiler

He has two different AI's depending on when you fight him.
The first fight is very easy: just wait for him to perform his dash attack, dodge it and strike him back. On the other fights his AI is split into 2 parts.
On the first part he actually behaves much like Abigail -- he'll try to get close to you and eventually will do his dash attack, which you should exploit as usual. It's how to deal with his approach that is important.
Basically, jump kicking at him when he gets too close, or using the HP draining move in a pinch will eventually make him retreat to perform his dash attack. If you simply try to dodge him, he'll occasionally just move towards and hit you instead.



The second half of his (latter) fight(s) is actually pretty easy -- just avoid the mad dash and hit him instead.

Abigail

Spoiler

A bit like Sodom's first part of the latter fights -- keep him at bay until he performs his dash attack and punish him afterwards.
I find it easier to keep him away by going to the bottom middle part of the screen, and moving up as he's getting close. He'll either continue to follow you or retreat instead.
If he continues to follow you, start punching -- he should be away enough from you, depth-wise, to keep him from *smooching* you, and if he retreats then just dodge the dash as usual and hit him back.

If it goes well:



If you let him get too close horizontally, which can happen if you also move towards him while moving up from the center of the screen -- he has an enourmous range -- he'll *smooch* you instead:

Beruga (aka Belger)

Spoiler

Also pretty simple. His first AI is very simple -- just pound him with a couple combos and the true fight will begin.
When it does, go to the top center of the screen and wait for his shots to stop, jumping over any that come on your lane (he'll always shoot 5 shots). Once he stops, move towards him while he's laughing and hit him with a combo/whatever.
If you get too close, too fast (by being too close to him when he fires the last shot) he'll zip across the screen instead of laughing, and will likely hit you in the process (you know when this will happen because a sound effect will play). I find that the trick to avoid this, is not to rush too quick at him when he fires the last shot.

If done right:

If done wrong:

Note that you don't have to be exactly in the middle of the screen (otherwise you'll most likely fail to reach him in time to be able to damage him). Just position yourself somewhere in the middle red wall and your golden.

A couple interesting things you guys may have missed.

Haggar starts at level 3, with a larger HP bar than the other characters. This is not necessarily better, as you'll level up 2 more times with the other characters, with a full HP refill each time.

On the fight with Sodom in the "Fujiyama Geisha Bar", he'll offer you a drink. If you say yes (the default choice) your HP will get fully restored, but if you say no he'll get offended by your refusal and you'll get no HP refill.

Spoiler

On the last level, there is a section that has a "roast chicken" sign. You can actually get a full HP refill by pressing the B button close to the sign (as when picking up an item). See where I punch near it in the GIF below (you don't see the HP refill because I had full health there, but there is a sound effect when you pick it up):

Spoiler

And there are probably more that I missed.

-----

I still want to get some more quality time with Haggar, and also the 1LC with all the characters as well. I'll try to have some better quality strategy-GIFs then, especially with Haggar.

Anyway, glad to see you're starting to have some fun Sumez -- it only gets better from there.

EDIT: bar name is "Fujiyama Geisha" not "Yokohama Geysha".

[Sumez]

Didn't really have any trouble with any of the bosses with Guy, it's just that with Haggar avoiding stuff like Sodom's rush attack but still being able to get back to him in time to grab him is super tight because of how slow Haggar is.
The second and third versions of Sodom did give me some trouble with Guy though, due to the attack where he's just approaching rapidly instead of doing his rush attack, giving me no way to retreat or counter.

Thanks for all the tips though, and badass GIF work. I have the Japanese version, so I had no idea what Sodom was saying, didn't know about the free refill. Same with the chicken on the sign, really useful if I decide to go for a 1LC at some point!

[__SKYe]

Played a run with Guy (it's been a while since the last time I played as him) and he's indeed the easiest character to play with.

His speed is top notch, and you get free rapid fire (three punches per button press) but at the cost of a slower rate than you can get with Cody by mashing the attack button. It does mean that you are commited to the 3 punches, which may leave you vulnerable if you miss them.

You asked before about his special attack, and honestly I also don't find it very useful, though it's still better than Cody's -- his Hadoken is so damn slow and easy to accidentally trigger (by simply pressing B and tapping forward), that it does more harm than good. Definitely my least favourite aspect of this game.
The only special attack I find quite useful is Haggar's, because you can temporarily move way faster and score a grab to boot. Guy's would be very cool if it actually knocked enemies farther away rather than what it does -- could be an awesome way to chuck enemies into a pit, for example.

Noticed a few more things this time around.

Forget my semi-convoluted strategy for Damnd -- you can just walk up to him and perform a standard combo when he walks towards you instead of the jump+stun thing. I also should work with Haggar, so no need for a specific strat just for him.

In some sections, you'll notice an enemy standing around either laying against a wall, or squating on the floor. They won't move (and attack you) until you get close to them, and given that they are almost always in a section where an enemy wave appears, you can actually fight only one enemy at a time if you don't approach the idle enemy. Pretty boring overall, as it just takes longer to dispatch them, but may be useful if you're very low on health and need to go through that section more safely.

Another thing, in some other sections either Poisons or El Gados will drop from the ceiling, and usually on top of you, knocking you down. You can avoid them without having to memorize the exact place where they spawn, by moving diagonally around the area where they drop. This way they'll drop on your sprite horizontally, but on a different depth lane.

On occasion, a few barrels will roll in and they drop items if you destroy them (not the bonus rounds, rather the ones that happen mid-stage). You have to pick up any items you want before the stages resumes, otherwise they'll just disappear.

As for the experience levels, both Cody & Guy start at level 1 and Haggar starts at level 3, but Cody requires more Exp to level up than Guy (to reach L2: 33 (Cody) vs 27 (Guy)). This means you'll level up faster with Guy, along with the HP refills, if you happen to need them. Small details, I know, but pretty interesting nonetheless.

Something I forgot to post earlier, and am not sure you're aware: you can perform a back jump by tapping back and pressing the A button.

Lastly, you can get some 11~12 lives throughout the game, though I believe you can only have 9 at once. Besides the 5 you start with, if you get a perfect on both bonus rounds you get another 4 (two on each) and I found another two on one of the barrels section I mentioned before, though there might be more.

I have the Japanese version, so I had no idea what Sodom was saying, didn't know about the free refill. Same with the chicken on the sign, really useful if I decide to go for a 1LC at some point

It's the only dialogue where you can actually make a choice that matters, everything else is just standard chatter, albeit somewhat funny. Also, if you reach that Sodom fight with a full HP bar, you won't be offered a choice.
The whole setting and dialogue of the game is pretty much a parody of the original FF, and most of it only makes sense if you've played the original (and are familiar with its story/setting) and it's not needed at all to enjoy the game itself.

[Jonny2x4]

It's the only dialogue where you can actually make a choice that matters, everything else is just standard chatter, albeit somewhat funny. Also, if you reach that Sodom fight with a full HP bar, you won't be offered a choice.
The whole setting and dialogue of the game is pretty much a parody of the original FF, and most of it only makes sense if you've played the original (and are familiar with its story/setting) and it's not needed at all to enjoy the game itself.

It's been a while, but you'll also get a health refill during the quiz sessions with Abigail if you answer all of his trivia questions correctly. For some reason, they took it out in the U.S. version but they still make a reference to it in the manual.

[BIL]

Absolutely superb work as usual, Skye. Your Kunio, Bare Knuckle, Yie Ar and Mighty FF posts are some of this thread's highlights. I've not put proper time on any of those, but I'll be referring back to your stuff when I do!

Really glad I picked up Mighty FF on a whim, around this time last year. Initially I was expecting something gimmicky, but the fighting mechanics absolutely hold up. Just one more enemy onscreen (or perhaps 2P co-op) and I think it'd easily threaten DD2's FC supremacy.

This is about all I got around to doing, but it's where fell in love with it. Dump 'em in!

Spoiler

Haggar's flying splash chains into further brutalities with TNWA-like smoothness. Also, <333 brawlers where the power characters can manhandle enemies around the screen like hateful furniture. I wish TNWA had more occasions like st2, where Ninja gets to choke-lift fuckers clear off the ground and march them into roaring industrial ventilation fans. I like my videogame violence appalling yet practical.

[Sumez]

It's been a while, but you'll also get a health refill during the quiz sessions with Abigail if you answer all of his trivia questions correctly. For some reason, they took it out in the U.S. version but they still make a reference to it in the manual.

In the first Abigail battle (useless considering how easy he is ) or the second one (possibly useful?)? What responses do you need to make?

<333 brawlers where the power characters can manhandle enemies around the screen like hateful furniture

Chibi-Haggar's animation set is definitely among the highlights of that game.

[Jonny2x4]

It's been a while, but you'll also get a health refill during the quiz sessions with Abigail if you answer all of his trivia questions correctly. For some reason, they took it out in the U.S. version but they still make a reference to it in the manual.

In the first Abigail battle (useless considering how easy he is ) or the second one (possibly useful?)? What responses do you need to make?

The first one. The questions are a series of True or False statements such as "Haggar's daughter is name Jussica" or "You'll gain experience from items taken from oildrums". If you answer them correctly, he'll give you an additional credit (not a health refill as I previously stated).

[Sumez]

Ah bugger that. Any relevant challenge for this game would be a 1LC, who needs more credits >_<

[BIL]

I'm disappointed he doesn't quiz you on Mercyful Fate/King Diamond. Then as a reward he could switch the BGM to shaweet chiptune renditions from the record he's named after!

(yes I would totally repeat this with DAMNED and SODOM too!)