Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[FinalBaton]

I don't think you need to give passes to any flaws in NES games. A lot of the games have them and suffer from them, but others are less plagued. Ninja Gaiden, in particular, is flawless.

Although I grew up with the NES myself, most of my love towards it is actually quite recent. Back when I started "retro collecting", almost 20 years ago now, I was all about the 16-bit generation, and saw the 8-bit consoles as an awkward half step that had the right ideas but neither the experience, standards or technical resources to pull off the ideal game design seen on the SNES or MegaDrive.

However, the NES definitely has a ton of stuff that was either well enough polished when it came out, or unique enough to warrant my interest anyway.

(Quoted you but it was aimed at Marc too)

There's just so many arcade-y action games on the NES, especially sidescrollers. It's just a behemoth of a library! Seriously, so many good games, and it keeps on giving too. If you like that genre of games (and it's probably my fave), then you just can't ignore the NES (you're doing yourself a disservice if you do), it's a MONSTER in that regard. That's what I always tell people who aren't into it.

And some times you will find game designs that simply haven't been properly repeated since, and the Ninja Gaiden model is one of those.

This. This is why I friggin' love this console so much <3

[Randorama]

Jonny, do you actually mean that Turtles in time was only released in EU/US?

I do agree that they are very poorly balanced.

I haven't played the second title in arcades (except maybe once, see previous question), but I have quickly checked the first one in MAME, and I recalled all the afternoons spent trying to deal with inordinate amounts of cheaply attacking goons.

The game basically throws dozens of enemies at you from stage 2 onwards, which also become increasingly aggressive and cheap (i.e. they can land punches even when the collision is dubious, their long range seem to increase range, and so on). The third stage's final section with the skates and the pseudo-helicopters throwing napalm bombs feels untested, as in some situations it is virtually impossible to avoid hits (e.g. helicopters bombing you from off-screen...).

Still, I remember playing this to death with friends, and even 1-CC'ing solo. It took me months, but I somehow enjoyed it (little masochist attitudes?). I might try the same feat with the second chapter on MAME if I don't destroy it first

[BrianC]

Need to dig out my 360 arcade stick and give Rolling Thunder some proper time, joypad is useless for it.

I should do the same with the Switch Namco Museum, which has both AC Rolling Thunders. Buttons or analog don't do that game justice, though I found the pads on the Switch Pro Controller and SF30 Pro to be good. Both of those can be used in portable mode, unlike the RAP, as well.

It's interesting that Namco decided to overlay translations for the JP Tank Force instead of using the western version of the game.

[Jonny2x4]

Jonny, do you actually mean that Turtles in time was only released in EU/US?

Yes, it had no JP release on the arcades, but it still got a Super Famicom port. It was the opposite case with Sunset Riders curiously enough (arcade game got a JP release, but the SNES and Genesis ports were west-only). It wasn't that unusual for Konami to release many of their games specifically for the west back then.

It's interesting that Namco decided to overlay translations for the JP Tank Force instead of using the western version of the game.

Are there any differences between the JP and World versions of Tank Force.

[BrianC]

Are there any differences between the JP and World versions of Tank Force.

I'm not sure, aside from English text. It's interesting that Tank Force uses elements from Battle City FC, though it's not unusual for update/sequels to older games to add power ups.

One thing I like about the home versions of the TMNT arcade games is that they are both better balanced than the arcade versions. I was surprised about some of the YT comments on the NES/FC TMNT Arcade Game's graphics. I found them to be amazing for NES/FC. Genesis TMNT is also an interesting remix of Turtles in Time. NES also has TMNT 2/3 Manhattan Project, which I found to be a nice game in its own right.

edit: I watched a video of the US tank force again. The text is different from the namco museum Switch and seems to be poorly translated.

[Jonny2x4]

I was surprised about some of the YT comments on the NES/FC TMNT Arcade Game's graphics. I found them to be amazing for NES/FC.

Who takes Youtube comments seriously? TMNT II looks about as good as you would expect from any other NES game from the same period. Anyone expecting a 1:1 reproduction of the arcade graphics are deluding themselves.

[BrianC]

I was surprised about some of the YT comments on the NES/FC TMNT Arcade Game's graphics. I found them to be amazing for NES/FC.

Who takes Youtube comments seriously? TMNT II looks about as good as you would expect from any other NES game from the same period. Anyone expecting a 1:1 reproduction of the arcade graphics are deluding themselves.

I don't take them seriously, I just find them baffling. I know I shouldn't be surprised by the comments, but they just don't make much sense to me.

[Udderdude]

Who takes Youtube comments seriously?

I don't take them seriously, I just find them baffling. I know I shouldn't be surprised by the comments, but they just don't make much sense to me.

Here, this will help.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/deta ... inmfbipjoh

[BrianC]

lol

[Stevens]

Ahh Dynamite Headdy - It took a while, and switching to the Japanese ROM, but I have finally seen the depths of what you have to offer.

What a true gem of a game.

[Udderdude]

Ahh Dynamite Headdy - It took a while, and switching to the Japanese ROM, but I have finally seen the depths of what you have to offer.

What a true gem of a game.

There's a translation patch that was released in 2007.

https://www.romhacking.net/translations/1113/

[Stevens]

There's a translation patch that was released in 2007.

https://www.romhacking.net/translations/1113/

Through dumb luck that happened to be the one I downloaded, but I still appreciate it. Thanks.

My big hurdle up to yesterday was stage six and baby face. Partially cause I had no plan as far as weapons or what route to take on fly hard two. Also the NTSC version is way harder.

Long story less long I use bi plane for the entire stage and switch to laser for baby face, who as it turns out isn't so hard after all.

Stage seven and eight (up to vice versa) were easy compared to the amount of time stage five and six were a wall for me on the other version. Took me little time to figure out the first part of the geisha, and three or four tries to beat her. The real trick there was learning the timing to dodge her claw strikes. That and not getting stuck with melon head. Fucking trolls.

[Randorama]

Jonny: ah, yes, I actually forgot about Konami's policies.
Would you happen to know if Violent storm involved any changes because of this, by chance? (Well, anyone who knows...).

I am half-tempted to dedicate some time to TMNT2, though.
I will have a fun runs with cheats to get a feeling of its difficulty, and then start a kickstarter campaign in which users pitch patience points instead of money, to help in this quest (ahem!).

re: EAR, and BIL's comment. I need more stamina to handle two pseudo-loops of the game.
I haven't played something this long for a while, so concentration wanes at around the fourth stage of the pseudo-second loop.

[BIL]

I'm actually wondering if Edie's crowd control advantage has led me to underrate EAR's difficulty... whatever disadvantages she supposedly has, the ability to drown the opposite half of the screen in bullets and fire largely obviates.

I'd check myself but I'm a bit busy this week. :[ I remember briefly trying out Karte+Jad, and immediately feeling the effect of their slower shot rates and shorter-lived bombs. Even with the default Beretta, Edie's shot rate is devastating - nothing can get out of a door, let alone get close. Bombs are plentiful too, to the point I wondered if I was really playing on defaults (I was!). I wasn't quite as cognisant of character-variable game balance back then... these days I may well have tried out the others after getting the 1LC, instead of cranking the difficulty up (though Edie @ Max is a good time in its own right, I still feel - revisited that much more recently and had a blast with its lethally quick-drawing enemies).

It may be Edie is the game's EZMode pick, ala Kamaitachi from Natsume's The Ninja Warriors Again (SFC). If you ever try that one out (Japan ver is a must), make sure to put it on Hard and pick either Ninja or Kunoichi.

[Jonny2x4]

Jonny: ah, yes, I actually forgot about Konami's policies.
Would you happen to know if Violent storm involved any changes because of this, by chance? (Well, anyone who knows...).

IIRC, the factory settings in the U.S./World versions of Violent Storm are different, but they can be adjusted to match the Japanese defaults (all three versions use software settings instead of DIP switches). In other games, such as Dark Adventure and Crime Fighters (which were released with dedicated 3P/4P cabs in the U.S., but were distributed as 2P conversion kits everywhere else), the U.S. versions are insanely more difficult. Devil World/Majuu no Oukoku (the non-U.S. versions of Dark Adventure) in particularly has a more linear stage composition and gave the two player characters firearms (whereas in the U.S. version they wielded melee weapons). Konami didn't release a 4P conversion kit in Japan until Crime Fighters 2.

Makes me wonder why Konami decided to make Gryzor 1P only (well, 2P-alternating). Were 2P cabinets rare in Europe at the time? How was Super Contra distributed in your arcade?

[Randorama]

Jonny: I honestly don't remember, but I have a vague memory of early cab models being often 1P only, and smaller than their 2P counterparts.
Super Contra might have followed that route. I certainly remember that my uncle had it on a bigger cab with only one set of controls.

I also remember that he had Devil World with a dedicated cab, but the version was the more rationally designed JAP one (stage progression was certainly linear!). I then wonder which version of Crime Fighters I played, as it was very difficult but doable. I certainly have played the harder version of Metamorphic Force (the one with energy points), and I could loop it without (too) many problems. It is likely that for all of these games my uncle was using harder settings because there were a few freaks of nature who could 1-CC them easily.

Are all versions of Crime Fighters in MAME, by chance?

[Stevens]

Recently it has dawned on me that there are many similarities between Treasure's early titles.

Mine shaft from Gunstar Heroes gave us the use of the ceiling. This would return in Headdy's vice versa stage, and make a more permanent appearance in Alien Soldier.

Marayuma grabs Headdy with a mechanical arm similar to Pinky Roader's.

Golden Silver straight up is in Guardian Heroes.

Counter Force and Phoenix would return in Silhouette Mirage.

I'm sure there are more, just shit I was musing at work the other day.

Speaking of SM I had it back in the day on the Saturn. Bought it from a Die Hard Gamefan shop in Manhasset NY. That shop was my first time seeing so many imports in one place.

It wasn't hard to figure the game out after some fiddling. Played it a lot and was eventually able to clear it but would like to play it one day with a proper translation.

As far as Crime Fighters we got the 4P quarter sucking cab. 14 year old me puts quarter in.

- "This is so cool"

- "Wait. I hit that guy but my foot passed through him?"

- "Why is my life going down? I'm not getting hit."

A group of us would eventually brute force our way through it with a truckload of quarters. Looking back it had some nice graphics and some great horror movie inspired bosses, but they definitely rushed that shit with minimal testing or they just didn't give a shit cause they knew us dumb ass kids would play it. Grabbing also felt random as fuck.

[Udderdude]

As far as Crime Fighters we got the 4P quarter sucking cab. 14 year old me puts quarter in.

- "This is so cool"

- "Wait. I hit that guy but my foot passed through him?"

- "Why is my life going down? I'm not getting hit."

A group of us would eventually brute force our way through it with a truckload of quarters. Looking back it had some nice graphics and some great horror movie inspired bosses, but they definitely rushed that shit with minimal testing or they just didn't give a shit cause they knew us dumb ass kids would play it. Grabbing also felt random as fuck.

The original Japanese version didn't have slowly draining life buy-in bullshit. The lousy hitboxes, tiny sprites and horror rip-off bosses remain, though.

[BIL]

Konami's arcade staff seemed to have had quite the thing for shoddy hitboxing.



Brush your fuckin teeth, kids!

[Sumez]

A friend of mine is going for the high score in Double Dragon arcade's Swtich release (I think he has it right now actually, but there isn't a lot of competition), and has now several times run into an issue where the game would eat his extends, which hurts his score since he can use those extra lives to pinch at least 70-80K extra points out of the game.

I've been searching around, and there are a ton of resources for bugs in the original Double Dragon, but none that touch on that issue. Does anyone here know what's causing it and how it could possibly be prevented?

I'm going out on a limb and assume it has something to do with poor handling of decimal numbers, but I haven't seen it happen, so I haven't been able to deduct any patterns.

EDIT: Looked a bit more into his issues, and it seems to be consistent, so I think it might be as simple as Arcade Archives simply not allowing extends past 90K one (ie. robbing him of the ones at 150K and 210K). I'm kind of wondering why it would do this though. As far as I can tell there are no dip switch settings or ROM versions that do that? Still curious if anyone knows anything.

[Jonny2x4]

Super Contra might have followed that route. I certainly remember that my uncle had it on a bigger cab with only one set of controls.

It's generally assumed online that Super Contra never got a Euro release because the first game was released as Gryzor over there, but from my understanding they simply got the same version that was distributed in the U.S. (it certainly got covered by UK publications such as Your Sinclair and Amiga Power that reviewed arcade games as side-content).

Are all versions of Crime Fighters in MAME, by chance?

Yes. The 2-Player export version is labeled the World version, while the 4-player is labeled U.S. However, looking at the flyer on Flyer Fever, it seems the U.S. actually got both, the 2-player and the 4-player version of Crime Fighters. It's possible it might had been distributed the same way in Europe too.
https://www.flyerfever.com/post/9705468 ... e-fighters

The 2-player versions of Crime Fighters are certainly easier (they even added a back kick button), but the export version still lacks the risque humor from the Japanese version like the "Are you covered" billboard on the first level and the gay gimp enemies that attack by humping and licking you.

Looking back it had some nice graphics and some great horror movie inspired bosses

The Freddy Krueger-lookalike is literally named Robert Englund according to Gamest. Konami was not afraid to show their influences back then.

Konami's arcade staff seemed to have had quite the thing for shoddy hitboxing.



Brush your fuckin teeth, kids!

It reminds me of the tank boss in Super Contra. The electrical cutter is actually ineffective and I always thought that was just a MAME bug. Turns out it's also ineffective in a real PCB too.

EDIT: Looked a bit more into his issues, and it seems to be consistent, so I think it might be as simple as Arcade Archives simply not allowing extends past 90K one (ie. robbing him of the ones at 150K and 210K). I'm kind of wondering why it would do this though. As far as I can tell there are no dip switch settings or ROM versions that do that? Still curious if anyone knows anything.

It's been a while, but I think the game only allows two extra lives at most.

[Stevens]

The Freddy Krueger-lookalike is literally named Robert Englund according to Gamest. Konami was not afraid to show their influences back then.

If you haven't already there is a great article on HG 101 about American influence/plagiarism in video games.

[BrianC]

Not Konami, but I would love to see a hit box comparison of NES/FC port of Kid Niki/Keiketsu Yanchamaru with the AC version. The NES/FC version has some wonky hit detection. It's also possible to get stuck on the edge of the screen at the first boss. As far as I could tell, the same issues are in both the US NES and JP FC versions of the game. AC version has much better hit detection.

[Jonny2x4]

If you haven't already there is a great article on HG 101 about American influence/plagiarism in video games.

Yeah, they culled most of their content from Yadayon's website (the same guy who hosted that Hokuto no Ken reference guide I've linked to a few pages ago), although admittedly they added their own stuff too.

[Randorama]

It's generally assumed online that Super Contra never got a Euro release because the first game was released as Gryzor over there, but from my understanding they simply got the same version that was distributed in the U.S. (it certainly got covered by UK publications such as Your Sinclair and Amiga Power that reviewed arcade games as side-content).

I remember that I was perplexed by reading the disclaimer for the U.S. market. Maybe I also played Gryzor (i.e. the EU version), as I have this faint memory that it took me a while to connect the two games as one of the sequel of the other. At least for Italy, US imports, some JAP imports (and, well, bootlegs) were easy to find and buy, for arcade operators.

Yes. The 2-Player export version is labeled the World version, while the 4-player is labeled U.S. However, looking at the flyer on Flyer Fever, it seems the U.S. actually got both, the 2-player and the 4-player version of Crime Fighters. It's possible it might had been distributed the same way in Europe too.
https://www.flyerfever.com/post/9705468 ... e-fighters

The 2-player versions of Crime Fighters are certainly easier (they even added a back kick button), but the export version still lacks the risque humor from the Japanese version like the "Are you covered" billboard on the first level and the gay gimp enemies that attack by humping and licking you.

OK, I am wondering which version I played, as I clearly remember playing the version with the gay gimp enemies, but I do not remember if I did so in the arcade (they were not censored in Vendetta/Crime fighters 2, were they?), or via MAME at a later time (say, I don't remember what button configuration I was using).

Re: Konami hitboxes. I am going through their old titles and I am definitely thinking that their various arcade teams had...interesting ideas about balance, hit-boxes and game design. How about a dedicated thread on this?

For instance:

TMNT2 arcade edition is a quarter muncher, but of a certain kind. I spent some time with it in the last two days. It plays like a faster version of the first game (another notorious quarter muncher): a safe way to handle *enemies in general* is to progress very slowly, let 1-2 enemies appear, and use a hit, hit, hit sequence to kill off most of them. If you can avoid crowd control altogether, it is rather easier, even if still not easy at all. Among other things, goons will get smarter over time and try to attack you in such a way that you are forced to scroll right, thereby getting one kazillion new enemies to spawn.

And then there are the bosses and the "surfing/skating" sections. For the skating sections, I believe that one attack (hit+jump, low jump attack counting for three hits/single kill) may be exploited to just handle all enemies. I remember something like that working for the second half of the third stage. For the bosses...I am figuring them out, but some exploits are more or less of the "one attack works and must be repeated ad nauseam, the rest is instant death". I'd add that if you move to one side for, like, more than 1/6th of the screen, the character dashes and a few million enemies appear. Nice design choice, folks.

Honestly, I had a moment of epiphany and wondered: what the programmers were thinking? I think that we could come up with the same conclusion with quite a few of their titles...

[BIL]

Re: Konami hitboxes. I am going through their old titles and I am definitely thinking that their various arcade teams had...interesting ideas about balance, hit-boxes and game design. How about a dedicated thread on this?

A dedicated thread sounds good (here's my ode to the joys of slowdown), but regardless, feel free to discuss anything and everything about these games here. I've been slacking off on the hardcore actionposts lately due to IRL Bullshit™, but this thread has a proud tradition of catering to headcanon speculators, obsessive collectors and murderfaced frame-counters alike.

[BrianC]

I tried the Genesis Double Dragon again. It's not as bad of a port as I initially thought. Enemies move too fast and like to hover towards you, but it has less slowdown than the arcade and the attacks work as well (in some cases better. Whip is more effective) as in the arcade. Despite the fast movement, the actual attack speed seems more on par to the arcade and enemies are less prone to attack in the middle of a combo. The music is definitely inferior, though. It's not as good as the NES version, but it's definitely better than the SMS and home computer versions.

[Stevens]

Funny Angry.

I hate you. Strangely though I love the fight. You just need to come correct.

[Jonny2x4]

I remember that I was perplexed by reading the disclaimer for the U.S. market. Maybe I also played Gryzor (i.e. the EU version), as I have this faint memory that it took me a while to connect the two games as one of the sequel of the other. At least for Italy, US imports, some JAP imports (and, well, bootlegs) were easy to find and buy, for arcade operators.

I don't think the export versions of Konami games had any warning screen. Those were usually only featured in Japanese releases. Usually, the only thing that would suggest a U.S. was the William S. Sessions screen that became somewhat-mandatory in most arcade games distributed in the country during the 90's. I think only Capcom had region-specific warning screens for each version of their CP System games.

However, Super Contra definitely did see some form of official distribution in Europe, or at least in the U.K., as evident by this flyer with a Middlesex address.
https://www.flyerfever.com/post/9701584 ... per-contra

It's the same address that appears on the Gryzor flyer and a bunch of their other Euro flyers too.
https://www.flyerfever.com/post/97053608578/gryzor

Moreover, there's an English instruction sticker for Super Contra done in the same style as the Gryzor instructions (and other World versions of Konami games such as Bells & Whistles) on the personal site of a Swedish arcade game collector.
http://www.tvspels-nostalgi.com/artwork_konami.htm

OK, I am wondering which version I played, as I clearly remember playing the version with the gay gimp enemies, but I do not remember if I did so in the arcade (they were not censored in Vendetta/Crime fighters 2, were they?), or via MAME at a later time (say, I don't remember what button configuration I was using).

It's been a while since I've played Crime Fighters 2/Vendetta, but I think the gay gimps were also cut out from the export versions of that game.

I tried the Genesis Double Dragon again. It's not as bad of a port as I initially thought. Enemies move too fast and like to hover towards you, but it has less slowdown than the arcade and the attacks work as well (in some cases better. Whip is more effective) as in the arcade. Despite the fast movement, the actual attack speed seems more on par to the arcade and enemies are less prone to attack in the middle of a combo. The music is definitely inferior, though. It's not as good as the NES version, but it's definitely better than the SMS and home computer versions.

Last time I've tried Double Dragon on Genny it had some input misses when you press the punch button too rapidly. I'm not sure if this is a fault in the game itself or I've encountered an emulation bug, but it was pretty annoying when I was punching enemies and suddenly my button presses wouldn't register. Also, cardboard boxes and other throwable objects have a habit of disintegrating when you overuse them (something that wasn't in the arcade version) and the Jeffs in this version are pretty cheap, capable of abusing your character's grab and knee technique against you (not sure if they ever used their grab attacks in the arcade version). Also, Marian's sprite was really ugly in that version too (not sure why Accolade felt the need to redesign her when every other character seems to be lifted from the arcade). With that said, it's probably the best of the three Double Dragon conversions available on Sega's 16-bit console.

The manual for the Genesis version is pretty hilarious for how it gets the story completely wrong (Machine Gun Willy is Jimmy apparently, while Jimmy is now some guy named Jake). I'm guessing Technos (or whoever was in charge of licensing western-made conversions like this) didn't have much of a hand in supervising Accolade's staff.
https://segaretro.org/File:Double_Drago ... Manual.pdf

By the way, the SMS Double Dragon doesn't sound half-bad if you play it with the FM Sound Unit.

[BrianC]

Last time I've tried Double Dragon on Genny it had some input misses when you press the punch button too rapidly. I'm not sure if this is a fault in the game itself or I've encountered an emulation bug, but it was pretty annoying when I was punching enemies and suddenly my button presses wouldn't register. Also, cardboard boxes and other throwable objects have a habit of disintegrating when you overuse them (something that wasn't in the arcade version) and the Jeffs in this version are pretty cheap, capable of abusing your character's grab and knee technique against you (not sure if they ever used their grab attacks in the arcade version). Also, Marian's sprite was really ugly in that version too (not sure why Accolade felt the need to redesign her when every other character seems to be lifted from the arcade). With that said, it's probably the best of the three Double Dragon conversions available on Sega's 16-bit console.

The manual for the Genesis version is pretty hilarious for how it gets the story completely wrong (Machine Gun Willy is Jimmy apparently, while Jimmy is now some guy named Jake). I'm guessing Technos (or whoever was in charge of licensing western-made conversions like this) didn't have much of a hand in supervising Accolade's staff.
https://segaretro.org/File:Double_Drago ... Manual.pdf

By the way, the SMS Double Dragon doesn't sound half-bad if you play it with the FM Sound Unit.

Yeah. I love the FM for DD2AC SMS (I didn't find the PSG too bad either). I kind of like the port, but dat hit detection.

edit: I tried the SMS one again and wasn't feeling it this time. Some moves like the elbow and holds don't seem possible to do consistently. Sometimes an enemy will fall down after jump kicking you after a punch seemingly misses. It's possible to beat the first Abobo by just standing there and punching.

Wow. Read that manual scan of the Genesis version and I was like "what the heck?". They just made up their own story for the sake of making Jimmy the villain. Or maybe they just lazily copied the NES version of the story and made up their own explanation for player 2.

As for other manuals, the back of the SMS version's box refers to Marion as "Mary Ann". I just looked up the SMS manual and it mixes up Jeff and Willy (as well as having "Mary Ann" like the box). There was one manual (may have been the DOS version) that says that Billy and Jimmy have the nicknames Hammer and Spike (their names on the US arcade version).

edit: Checking the SMS version manual again, it does mention that Billy and Jimmy are nicknamed Hammer and Spike, only it says Billy is "Spike" and Jimmy is "Hammer", the reverse of the US arcade machine.