Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Herr Schatten]

The turrican collection is on sale on the eshop. I never played turrican. Any good? Or is it too jank and confusing?

That's an accurate description of the first game. It's not terrible, but apart from the outstanding soundtrack it hasn't aged all that well. The second one doesn't do things a whole lot differently, but somehow ends up being super fun regardless. The console games (and part 3) streamline the stages from huge exploration-heavy areas into more straightforward affairs. Thus, they lose a lot of what made the series special in the first place and are really just above-average run'n'guns on machines that host better examples of the genre.

If it's on sale, I'd say it's worth it for the music alone.

[Sengoku Strider]

A lot of people love it, even though I don't know why

People have no idea how terribly the Amiga has aged. I certainly didn't until I started watching a bunch of RetroCore's Battle of the
Ports videos. That whole series is like a flamethrower to Amiga nostalgia.

Also, it's a goldmine for hideous but hilarious ZX Spectrum graphics.



Hats off to the 10 year old who drew this though.

[BIL]

Mr. Jones had a hard life, that kinda publicity gotta affect a man's work ;[

[Herr Schatten]

That whole series is like a flamethrower to Amiga nostalgia.

To be fair, with very few exceptions, none of those ports were held in high regard even back in the day, and you'll have a hard time finding individuals who are nostalgic for them specifically. Granted, even apart from poor arcade ports, there's a ton of crappy games on the system, mostly due to having been made by demo coders who hadn't a clue about game design. However, there are some really good exclusives as well, and I certainly won't blame anyone who's looking back on them fondly.

[Udderdude]

https://www.lemonamiga.com/games/votes_list.php

Looking at this list, you get the general sense that the best games on the system are either cross-platform IBM PC/Atari ST games, or exclusive original games. Very few arcade ports, I spot Bubble Bobble and Rodland. But anyway, this is getting pretty off-topic, esp. seeing as most of the best stuff on the Amiga aren't sidescrollers at all.

Here's an interesting looking one. Don't think this is on any other platform except the Amiga. https://www.lemonamiga.com/games/details.php?id=920

[BIL]

Topdown, beltscrolling and single-screeners are A-OK here too, this has been the stealth Hard 2D Action megathread ever since Part III. ;3 (DR BIRUFORD IN PRISON )

I like hearing about Euro PC stuff tbh. Big blind spot in my gaming history. Visited the UK regularly as a kid, always felt like a different world with my cousins favouring C64s and Amigas over consoles. The idea of literal "game tapes" you had to press play on absolutely blew my mind, haha.

EDIT: You know what, this is a good spot to kick off Part VII. I need some inspiration to sort an arcade stick out, and qualify in the RUN/GUN SKILLS TEST thread.



We're getting back to our roots this time around. The good doctor has hogged a few too many covers lately, so it's time to give our patron saint Edmond The Mad some overdue recognition.

Spoiler

The randy old bastard still can't let go of the spotlight though ;3

[Stevens]

Good luck getting a reach around through Oscar's trash can/house.

I remember once he had an elephant in there.

[Sengoku Strider]

That whole series is like a flamethrower to Amiga nostalgia.

To be fair, with very few exceptions, none of those ports were held in high regard even back in the day, and you'll have a hard time finding individuals who are nostalgic for them specifically. Granted, even apart from poor arcade ports, there's a ton of crappy games on the system, mostly due to having been made by demo coders who hadn't a clue about game design. However, there are some really good exclusives as well, and I certainly won't blame anyone who's looking back on them fondly.

Oh no, it's not just arcade ports. Things that I had long thought of as jewels of gaming history like Lotus Espirit, Switchblade & Shadow of the Beast turn out to be nowhere near as good as I remembered watching that series.

I never owned an Amiga, though I desperately wanted one. My friend down the street had one and it seemed like the greatest thing in the universe. In my head canon, Amiga games looked colourful & shiny, and way outclassed Mega Drive games. But in reality, overall the MD beasts on it. My brain also somehow did not store at all the fact that so many Amiga games forced you to choose between sound effects or music, and wouldn't let you have both. As an NES kid, in retrospect this seems completely insane to me.

But really the core problem, as you point out, is that the library of the Amiga - actually, nearly every Western home computer save the C64 - seems to largely have been created by people who had no clue what they were doing as game designers. Physics were an almost alien concept. Interfaces frequently seem to have next to no thought put into them - "Move with the joystick, fire with the action button, and press space bar to jump!" Levels weren't thoughtfully laid out. The player and the visual information made available to them were afterthoughts, with blind jumps, cheap deaths, swarms of enemies and woefully inadequate player characters. For reasons I don't quite understand, so many of these games are outright hateful toward the player, to the point of functional impossibility.

Which leads me back to the nostalgia thing. Most of the memories people have of these games were no doubt of cracked versions with invincibility & unlimited items. They weren't really playing most of them so much as consuming them as content tourism much of the time. So as long as the Amiga looked better than the other Western home computers (which, outside of the C64 were pretty dire), it would come across well. Especially in Europe where consoles were slower to catch on.

Which then brings me back to Turrican. If you watch those RetroCore videos, he's actually effusive in his praise of the Amiga Turrican games. Until he concludes his review of Turrican 2, saying "...for an Amiga game, it comes very close to being console quality." And it wasn't a put down, within the context of the Amiga library, he genuinely meant it as high praise.

Still, maybe I'm being a little harsh. When Commodore's main competition in the UK was the Spectrum, it would be impossible not to have the fondest of memories of the Amiga by comparison.



I really hope Scotland Yard caught whoever did this.

[Herr Schatten]

I do agree with you on most points, but I'm generally less harsh on peoples' rose-tinted memories. People didn't have ways to actually compare different versions of games then. They just played what they had easy access to. If they remember having fun in whichever way, who am I to tell them they're wrong?

Most of the memories people have of these games were no doubt of cracked versions with invincibility & unlimited items. They weren't really playing most of them so much as consuming them as content tourism much of the time.

I can confirm that this was very common. All my friends did it for sure and they thought I was weird because I didn't use those 'trainers' and tried to actually play the games.

This content tourism approach is also the only reason all those terrible Psygnosis and Cinemaware style-over-substance games come anywhere near best-of lists like the one Udderdude linked to. Those games are all hilariously bad, often bordering on being unplayable, but boy do they look good.

Until he concludes his review of Turrican 2, saying "...for an Amiga game, it comes very close to being console quality." And it wasn't a put down, within the context of the Amiga library, he genuinely meant it as high praise.

I think this is pretty accurate. There's a handful of equally good games on the system, and I cherish those greatly, but I'd be the first one to admit that there's not all that many of them and that the machine is remembered more for the wrong ones instead of those that deserve it.

Anyway, to bring this back to the original topic and the question sparking this discussion:
Turrican II = good

Here's an interesting looking one. Don't think this is on any other platform except the Amiga.

My memories of Ruff'n'Tumble are quite hazy, but I seem to remember that this was another one that looked far better (in stills) than it played. If I recall correctly, there's too much visual clutter, enemies take too many hits, and the bosses are uninspired and don't do much. I think it ran at just 25 FPS, too, but I might remember it wrong, and it wasn't really uncommon anyway. (I think Gods ran at 12 FPS on the Amiga, yet that was seen as perfectly acceptable by reviewers and players alike.)


If you want to have a laugh and like to see a game in action that outright hates the player to a point that makes you question the creators' sanity, look no further than this.

[WelshMegalodon]

But really the core problem, as you point out, is that the library of the Amiga - actually, nearly every Western home computer save the C64 - seems to largely have been created by people who had no clue what they were doing as game designers.

Most of the memories people have of these games were no doubt of cracked versions with invincibility & unlimited items. They weren't really playing most of them so much as consuming them as content tourism much of the time.

So Amiga games are what everyone that discovered 'retro gaming' after AVGN thinks arcade and console games are?

[Jeneki]

I recently happened across an arcade beatemup called Tough Turf at a buddy's place. Y'know, the one where you play this guy:

(image for BIL's approval)

Something I quickly noticed is you can carry weapons from stage to stage. Is this the intended way to play this game, pipe your way to glory? I had a hard time finding other consistent ways to attack at least. If someone has experience with this one, let me know.

[BIL]

Ahaha, holy shit. Totally confused for a sec there! I was thinking of Rival Turf aka Rushing Beat.

Spoiler

Rad character designs, buddy's holding those dual broken bottles like maracas ready to jam one apiece in some poor fuck's lugholes.

Sunsoft arcade stuff from the late 80s/early 90s, another field I'm quite unfamiliar with. Brings to mind Bay Route (geddit? bwaaa! some funsters at Sunsoft's US branch, I guess), another published by Sega IIRC. Shame that might complicate an ACA release somewhere down the line, I love seeing truly forgotten stuff like this get quality home releases.

[Rastan78]

Haha I can't tell if he's going to sell me insurance or shank me with a beer bottle. He almost reminds me of Bob from Tekken with that bit of FUPA showing.

[Udderdude]

I remember trying that one. It's pretty average IMO. And yeah, you need to hold on to those weapons for dear life.

[trap15]

Tough Turf is fairly middling in a number of ways, but it ends up being extremely satisfying when you're really trying to play it seriously. The super tight footsies-based combat combined with how absolutely essential it is to keep a weapon (which you drop any time you're hit) makes for a really intense play loop that makes every hit (on enemies or yourself!) count. Add in the beefy sound effects and voice clips that make it feel like they count, and the great 80s action movie-esque soundtrack, and it ends up being just a really enjoyable time if you're looking for something off the beaten trail.

Gotta love salaryman-on-a-rampage belt scrollers too

[Sima Tuna]

The ending of Tough Turf makes for hilarious viewing if you have never seen it before.

[Sengoku Strider]

I do agree with you on most points, but I'm generally less harsh on peoples' rose-tinted memories. People didn't have ways to actually compare different versions of games then. They just played what they had easy access to. If they remember having fun in whichever way, who am I to tell them they're wrong?

Sure, that's perfectly reasonable, and in my post I admit to fully having been one of them. I remembered Sword of Sodan being totally kickass, and Xenon II being one of the greatest shmups ever crafted. All of this stuff I'm saying is after coming back decades later with the gift of hindsight.

And even back in the day, once I had a few years of NES/SNES & arcade play under my belt, it was all but impossible to convince DOS or Amiga players that their games were a notch below in the control & gameplay departments. (Instead it was just that console games were for kids while computer games were "realistic"). I wonder how many PC gamers today understand just how awful the DOS scene was before Doom, then Windows 95 changed everything. And even then, it took Microsoft jumping into the console space, and Western Xbox devs having to compete directly with Japanese games (as well as a generation of young Western devs who had grown up with Metroid, Mario, Zelda & Ninja Gaiden) for that needle to really shift.

I can confirm that this was very common. All my friends did it for sure and they thought I was weird because I didn't use those 'trainers' and tried to actually play the games.

This content tourism approach is also the only reason all those terrible Psygnosis and Cinemaware style-over-substance games come anywhere near best-of lists like the one Udderdude linked to. Those games are all hilariously bad, often bordering on being unplayable, but boy do they look good.

Same. Easily 90% of the games I played were cracked versions downloaded off a BBS. I think the only stuff my friend bought tended to be CRPGs with elaborate copy protection in the form of decoder wheels or requiring specific page references from massive instruction manuals.

I thought Cinemaware was kind of jank even at the time, but Psygnosis I remember as being like the Konami of the Amiga. Or the Nintendo, they felt like the de facto first party flagship developer. They had DMA on board, so some of their stuff definitely still holds up. But yeah, their Amiga period was definitely largely style over substance in hindsight. It wasn't until they started playing in the 32-bit console arena that they really stepped up their consideration of game design principles.

Anyway, to bring this back to the original topic and the question sparking this discussion:
Turrican II = good

I mean...y'know.

On some platforms maybe.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Tough Turf is fairly middling in a number of ways, but it ends up being extremely satisfying when you're really trying to play it seriously. The super tight footsies-based combat combined with how absolutely essential it is to keep a weapon (which you drop any time you're hit) makes for a really intense play loop that makes every hit (on enemies or yourself!) count. Add in the beefy sound effects and voice clips that make it feel like they count, and the great 80s action movie-esque soundtrack, and it ends up being just a really enjoyable time if you're looking for something off the beaten trail.
:

Which are the default settings for this? I got the impression that Mame got they all wrong as it was way too easy.

[Herr Schatten]

On some platforms maybe.

Lol, stop posting those Spectrum gifs. That only tickles my masochistic side and makes me want to try out that particular version. I don't think I could get out of that experience with my sanity intact.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Pushing into stage 5 in Crime Fighters 2 now.

The beginning of stage 4 isn't the most dangerous part of the game but it does feel like one of its most tense moments up to that point. It seemed impenetrable before I learned you can basically OHKO the gunman and dog with molotovs thrown from extreme close range, but the timing and positioning required is really tight. And if you miss those bottle tosses, the fight is both particularly dangerous and obnoxious thanks to the high-HP dog and its rapid, debilitating grabs. Then of course stage 5 starts off with two more dogs... though in that case they're paired up with less dangerous enemies.

Kruel Kurt is a less scary boss than the Rude brothers. He's still problematic - it's tempting to try and punish his spin attack with a forward PK, but if you fail you'll end up trapped and lose most of your health - but I'd rather deal with him than the squirrelly smaller Rude brother, who's hard to nail with precision PKs even knowing his movement pattern.

Great game. Beyond the tactile and well-presented violence, the pacing is great; I love that the game is throwing new enemy types at you basically every other encounter. It's the kind of structure you can only really get in a shorter game like this one, of course, but it's a lovable one. My only complaint is the same as before - even after your guide and with using video references, it's tough to get down the precise positioning needed to properly integrate grabs (both the throw and pummel ones) into a combat gameplan. Even now I can't fully get reliable grabs off reflex.

I find Hawk, and to a lesser extent Blood, a lot more aesthetically satisfying than Boomer. But Boomer's long-range kicks are just too important; I can't swap off him.

[BIL]

Ah yes, the molotov pointblank instakill is a great detail. (I love the unceremonious violence of making the bottles and brick the 1HKO single-shotters the latter's bone-crushing SFX and "dropped stone dead" animation are wicked grim )

I nail the opening Shotgunner/Doggo pointblank consistently, by getting onto pointblank from below before letting rip with the bottle. With their simple AI and set spawn points, it's very possible to nail both in one shot - a bit of savestate practice should sort this out. (nailing multiple targets with a single weapon strike is a really useful tack in general)

If I miss the pointblank, first order of business is to boot away the pooch, then headlock the gunner (they're the most vulnerable of all enemies to a walk-past and rear grapple, with their glacial stop/attack/recover pause, and one headlock will kill them).

One thing I find useful with the dogs, if you're forced to fight one rather than 1HKOing via bottle/shotgun - they "cue up" their leap attack for counters very predictably. Run up, stop, BORK, leap. ala returning Bombers' throwing knives, I like to use Boomer's PK, with its intuitive circular animation. Their ankle-biting hold is contact-activated, so if they're close, evade vertically until they've ran off and are approaching once again, in their back/forth holding pattern.

I've found this tactic 99% dependable; the only time a dog runs up and leaps in one unbroken attack is when I've gotten onto their Y axis while they're almost on top of me.

Speaking of on top of me, I like that Gay Dog is once again guarding the waterfront (Loop 2). Sadly, his hump-fu is banned on ACA, but CF1 vets will appreciate the reference!



See you again in CF2 lil homie 3;

Spoiler

[Sengoku Strider]

On some platforms maybe.

Lol, stop posting those Spectrum gifs. That only tickles my masochistic side and makes me want to try out that particular version. I don't think I could get out of that experience with my sanity intact.

It's actually a museum of bizarre curiosities. As the #1 gaming platform in the UK during the 1980s, it was the recipient of every Japanese arcade port under the sun, even when it absolutely shouldn't have been. Except this being the 1980s and Japan being on the other side of the planet, they were never working with any kind of source code or original planning artwork.

Not that it might have mattered. There's only so much help you can give someone who doesn't understand how perspective - or the third dimension in general - works:



But on the whole the use of colour gets very Magical Mystery Tour:

[BIL]

God damn, Chinese folk legend Col. Wang So Long flat-slapped the living dogshit outta that poor ninja That'll teach those Nihongo swine to impugn the middle kingdom!

I find those transparent Spectrum sprites so charming... like a slight step up from Tiger LCD display, real "make a dollar outta fifteen cents" tech. Far from the sweet spot of the Famicom, and Gunpei Yokoi's famed "lateral thinking with withered technology" philosophy, but a neat curio at least.

[BrianC]

I find it hilarious how the Turrican sprite in Turrican II for ZX Spectrum looks like a Sontaran from Dr. Who. He looks like a generic spaceman in Turrican 1, which at least has better use of color.

[Sima Tuna]

I find Hawk, and to a lesser extent Blood, a lot more aesthetically satisfying than Boomer. But Boomer's long-range kicks are just too important; I can't swap off him.

THAS RITE! I love kneeling down (using Blood) to punch those asses with my meaty fists! And I'll be the first to admit Hawk's headbutt, with its Shotgun damage (deals 40,) is incredibly satisfying to use. It's just a shame I'm shit at pulling it off consistently. Hawk's elbow smash is fun too.

[BIL]

One good thing, kinda, about Hawk's headbutt is that it only does average damage on bosses - so you don't need to mess with the game's much finickier grapple range on them. For player-sized enemies, who have dizzy states, it's just a matter of knocking 'em down once, then hittin' em from the back. (or feinting around to their back, with a little footwork)

Slippin' and slidin', that ass I be ridin' (■｀w´■)

Spoiler

Something was bugging me about Stage 4's opening doggo/hobo combo, so I limped a quick run with my busted-ass controller. Aha! I'd forgotten my exploit of the stage start invincibility. Here's a quick video demo. Totally consistent pattern. This is Vendetta 2P... can't recall if the gunner dies to the pointblank in JP. Regardless, as shown, he's left at death's door, while poochy is a goner.

And here's the doggo handling/cue-up I mentioned, with a couple of deliberate walks into his contact-activated bite. The first three jumps are untelegraphed; I think this is due to either being too close, or my invading his Y-axis, rather than letting him come to me. The telegraphed jumps consistently occur when 1) I'm far enough away, and 2) he gets on my line. Easier in practice than on paper.

Bork! GIF of same

Spoiler

No idea how Gay Dog behaves in his native Crime Fighters PCB habitat, but in the unfortunately censored ACA release, he's restricted to Straight Dog techniques only. Pyrrhic, to say the least. 3;

Couple other things I was reminded of this brief session:

-while the Molotov gains monster damage at pointblank, the Brick is the opposite. A "contact shot" with your hand actually hitting the target will simply knock them down, while the Brick (happily enough) bounces off the screen edge ready for another go. This is pretty important vs the final gauntlet, where instakilling KungFu or SADOMASO-CHAN is a good edge.

-it's key when fighting the Rudes to never be stranded at 4HP or less, while Fred/Igor is alive. He can easily snipe you en-route to a health pickup, with his nasty 8way attack. It's definitely worth taking out Fred ASAP, even if you get knocked down in the process. Frank's a joke without backup.

(man, I love it when stage start i-frames are a thing :3 I be dead down here? nonono, YOU be dead down here!)

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

That stage 4 opening strategy definitely seems reliable in CF2, thanks! That makes it easy to nail that part down consistently, which is helpful. And it looks like the stage 5 opening can be reliably handled by luring both dogs into a single bottle strike (though those dogs have less enemy backup anyway, so they're not particularly dangerous in any event).

Speaking of enemies who have to be precisely countered, the smaller Rude brother really is the game's nastiest individual threat. Having now spent some time practicing stage 5, I'm more threatened by the stage 3 boss than anything else in the first five levels. Having to target the smaller brother not only on the x and z-axes, but having to time your attacks to nail him at the appropriate height of his jump, alongside everything else you have to keep in mind during that fight, is the harshest the game gets (outside of the final stage, I imagine, which clearly must be the bulk of the game's difficulty - I haven't stepped into it yet though). It's gratifying to send him flying with a properly-aimed PK, though.

Actually, the bosses seem to basically decrease in difficulty after stage 3. Kurt is somewhat tougher than Faust too. Faust isn't really a big deal outside of his dirty gun trick at the end (still nervy even if memorized since the timing for getting from safespot to safespot seems tight) and his heavily-punishing wakeup grab, which I'm guessing can be avoided safely by being careful about how many stomps you get in.

What does the ACA release do to the leather enemies in stage 3? Are they censored in some way or are they completely replaced with different enemy types, as in the old US release?

[Udderdude]

.

[Rastan78]

What does the ACA release do to the leather enemies in stage 3? Are they censored in some way or are they completely replaced with different enemy types, as in the old US release?

The latter. In the JP rom on ACA they're swapped out for different enemies just like the original US version did.

[BIL]

Yeah, ACA Crime Fighters 2 basically copy/pastes over Vendetta's censored third stage. I've never actually played uncensored CF2, but on ACA, the opening street is full of Chains, Red Mohawks and Greasers. A shame, but at the same time, it's a pretty nice slate of foes.

ACA Sunset Riders is a similar situation, albeit strictly aesthetic - copy/pastes the US version's censored name (Chief Scalpem is now Wampum) and speech (El Greco doesn't say "Die, Gringo" in his intro, he simply repeats "Adios Amigo" on both entry and departure... which I guess is still kinda menacing, haha).

Other than the aforementioned Gay Dog nerf, ACA CF2 seems untouched. I'm surprised at how minimal even the uncensored Crime Fighters 2's blood is - I don't think I even noticed it at first. It's there, though. Vendetta has SNES Mortal Kombat-style "sweat." Yo! Check out the sweat flying off that dude's face after Blood executed an all-too-perfect Buck Fifty!