XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Valandil]

Hello everybody,

Last Friday I received my RGB cable for the PSX ordered from Solaris, I hooked everything up, load FBX progressive profile in the FM for the PS1 and powered on my PS One console to play Symphony of the Night in glorious RGB! To my surprise, instead of being extremely happy with the picture I instantly noticed that something was off with the PS logo as I noticed how the solid colors (easily spotted in the red being the largest one) showed some interference/lines.

Once the game started I noticed too that there was something strange with the picture it was being displayed, there was a lot of checkerboard patterns everywhere. I booted up MGS and noticed the same thing.

My initial guess is that this is caused by the cable but I'd like your experienced input. I'm thinking in buying one RGB cable from retro_console_accessories. It should get rid of those excessive checkerboards, right?

Here are some pictures:

Spoiler

Thanks as always guys, I appreciate your assistance.

[austin532]

Some of those patterns like the SotN menu are caused by Dithering (I know, it's ugly). If you set the H_Scaler to 15 you will notice it goes away. You need a Sync on Luma cable to get rid of the interference checkerboard patterns. Strange though as their website says it's wired for Luma.

I would go ahead and get one from retro_console_accessories. Cheaper and most likely built better.

[Valandil]

Some of those patterns like the SotN menu are caused by Dithering (I know, it's ugly). If you set the H_Scaler to 15 you will notice it goes away. You need a Sync on Luma cable to get rid of the interference checkerboard patterns. Strange though as their website says it's wired for Luma.

I would go ahead and get one from retro_console_accessories. Cheaper and most likely built better.

Thanks man, yeah it really surprised me too as their website says it's wired for Luma but the result really disappointed me. I ordered from Solaris since I already had the JP21 adapter that came with the Mini around and wanted to use that, I guess that wasn't such a good idea. I'll return it and get one from retro_console_accessories.

For the SCART to XRGB Mini adapter I see that she has 2 listed, one with a sync stripper built in and one passive. Would you recommend getting the one with the sync stripper in it or the passive one? I kind of remember reading around that the PS1 had sync issues with the XRGB mini?

Thanks again, cheers!

[NormalFish]

if you're getting a checkerboard, it's almost certainly composite video for sync, yeah. Send it back if you can.
**
v The issue is that the framemeister doesn't like composite video for sync from a ps1/2. His cable is almost certainly "genuine" rgb scart.

[Xyga]

Those cheap third party cables with a built-in GunCon input I used to buy for 5€ were almost always guaranteed to be full genuine scart RGB wired.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-CABLE-THAT- ... Sw7KJXD2Hj

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Scart-Kabel-PS1- ... Swv-NWaba9

[Valandil]

if you're getting a checkerboard, it's almost certainly composite video for sync, yeah. Send it back if you can.
**
v The issue is that the framemeister doesn't like composite video for sync from a ps1/2. His cable is almost certainly "genuine" rgb scart.

Those cheap third party cables with a built-in GunCon input I used to buy for 5€ were almost always guaranteed to be full genuine scart RGB wired.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-CABLE-THAT- ... Sw7KJXD2Hj

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Scart-Kabel-PS1- ... Swv-NWaba9

Thanks guys, I'll return it for sure and get a proper RGB cable. I'm still a little confused on whether buy the SCART to XRGB Mini adapter with the sync stripper or without it.

[NormalFish]

I haven't had any need for a sync stripper. I think some Sega consoles and some of the older ones benefit, but everything I've tried works fine with my passive adapter.

[ZellSF]

Anyone checked if there is input lag on HDMI passthrough? It would be very useful to avoid buying another switch, but don't want to add lag to the chain.

[FBX]

Some of those patterns like the SotN menu are caused by Dithering (I know, it's ugly). If you set the H_Scaler to 15 you will notice it goes away.

I never consider the dithered pixel look to be ugly. So to me, blurring it away is a bad thing. If a life bar was programmed with a checkerboard pattern, I want to see every pixel of it in full detail.

Anyway, I finished developing the suite of Game Boy Player profiles for the Gamecube. I made universal profiles for default use of the Game Boy Player, and then special scaled profiles that are meant for the "GBI.LL" software that forces 240p output of the Gamecube. If you have the means, I HIGHLY recommend getting an SD Media Launcher to make use of the GBI.LL software (assuming you don't have a modded Gamecube). The difference in sharpness is vastly improved over the standard 480i/p modes.

So here are the new profiles:

Code: Select all

GBPCOMGB:  (Game Boy Player interlaced mode for the Gamecube)

GBPHGA5X:  (Game Boy Player 240p Forced output via GBI.LL for Game Boy Advance 5x scale)

GBPHGA6X:  (Game Boy Player 240p Forced output via GBI.LL for Game Boy Advance 6x scale)

GBPHGB5X:  (Game Boy Player 240p Forced output via GBI.LL for Game Boy & Game Boy Color 5x scale)

GBPHGB6X:  (Game Boy Player 240p Forced output via GBI.LL for Game Boy & Game Boy Color 6x scale)

GBPHGB7X:  (Game Boy Player 240p Forced output via GBI.LL for Game Boy & Game Boy Color 7x scale)

GBPPROGB:  (Game Boy Player Progressive mode for the Gamecube)  *** Not recommended for use

The last one there is not recommended for use because 480p is just butchered by the Framemeister. The scanlines don't jive with the internal resolution of the Game Boy/C/Advance games, and the false contouring makes for a bad experience anyway.

Here's the new package download:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... 3-2016.zip

[Guspaz]

Does the ULL version not work with the Framemeister? Not that it should matter, I suppose, ULL and LL should have the same geometry. But the lower lag would be nice.

Luckily the ULL version works very well with my projector, and the projector's zoom mode is almost exactly perfect for GBI (only a very tiny amount of underscan), apart from the typical ULL tearing that happens. But that tearing would happen on a PVM too, and it's easy to ignore: it only happens very occasionally, and then goes away after a minute or two.

[lechu]

FBX, I use your profiles all the time, but I'm having trouble with the Gamecube. I have my TV set to full pixel, but the Gamecube profile is zoomed in way too far. I'm using the Interlaced profile (since I don't have component cables).

[zulnoth]

Hi guys.

Having problems with my XRGB-Mini, interacting with my Sega Master System II (rgb modded). Ran a search on these forums, but my parameters might not be good. Is problems getting a Pal master system II outputting RGB to the framemeister a known issue? I used this guide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syeN58Osg24), and have checked my pin outs and terminations to the point of frustration haha, they're all good. This is the result i'm seeing on either one of my samsung tv's (plasma and led-lcd) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St07SFkU6dU. Talking with the guy who did the guide, he thinks it's either a XRGB-Mini incompatibility problem or a settings problem with it. Does anyone have any experience with a similar issue?

Thanks for your time!

[NormalFish]

Does the ULL version not work with the Framemeister? Not that it should matter, I suppose, ULL and LL should have the same geometry. But the lower lag would be nice.

Luckily the ULL version works very well with my projector, and the projector's zoom mode is almost exactly perfect for GBI (only a very tiny amount of underscan), apart from the typical ULL tearing that happens. But that tearing would happen on a PVM too, and it's easy to ignore: it only happens very occasionally, and then goes away after a minute or two.

it seems like ULL is inconsistent. It might work on some firmwares but not others.

[telemetry]

Some of those patterns like the SotN menu are caused by Dithering (I know, it's ugly). If you set the H_Scaler to 15 you will notice it goes away. You need a Sync on Luma cable to get rid of the interference checkerboard patterns. Strange though as their website says it's wired for Luma.

I would go ahead and get one from retro_console_accessories. Cheaper and most likely built better.

To my eyes, none of those visual patterns look like the "crawling interference checkerboard" that I've seen with bad cables. As FBX said, that's just what the original SOTN looked like -- comparing SOTN on the PS2 (240p output) to my PS1 copy of SOTN on the PS3 in PS1-mode with all smoothing turned off, as well as several other PS1 games. I didn't realize the dithering was that bad until I dug out some of my old PS1 games this weekend.

(The Saturn version of SOTN, for all its transparency flaws, at least has non-dithered gradients )

[Guspaz]

The dithering in SotN is only visible on the title/initial menu screens. It's not present (or at least not visible) in-game that I can recall. And even then, it looks fine, and it's as-intended.

[austin532]

There is some visible in a few areas like that small room before the hallway which leads to the Librarian.

I'm not saying dithering is bad as it's an easy way to tell you are getting the sharpest picture but I'm just not a fan of it. I am part of that stubborn Group A who thinks dithering was not meant to be seen.

[FBX]

Does the ULL version not work with the Framemeister? Not that it should matter, I suppose, ULL and LL should have the same geometry. But the lower lag would be nice.

Luckily the ULL version works very well with my projector, and the projector's zoom mode is almost exactly perfect for GBI (only a very tiny amount of underscan), apart from the typical ULL tearing that happens. But that tearing would happen on a PVM too, and it's easy to ignore: it only happens very occasionally, and then goes away after a minute or two.

Yeah, the ULL version is incompatible with the Framemeister. The frame rate just doesn't work on it. You get a blank screen with the occasional flash of pixel garbage.

FBX, I use your profiles all the time, but I'm having trouble with the Gamecube. I have my TV set to full pixel, but the Gamecube profile is zoomed in way too far. I'm using the Interlaced profile (since I don't have component cables).

You're using 1080p right? Can you tell me what the ZOOM settings are at when you try to use the Gamecube profile? Also can you tell me the name of the profile? This will help me double-check it on my end to make sure it's kosher. Edit: I see you mentioned you are not using the component cables. That's probably the problem. I only designed them for use with the component cables Nintendo made. However, I do have S_video on hand if that's what you are using. Let me know and I'll develop a new profile based on the cable you are using.

[Shuco13]

Does the ULL version not work with the Framemeister? Not that it should matter, I suppose, ULL and LL should have the same geometry. But the lower lag would be nice.

Luckily the ULL version works very well with my projector, and the projector's zoom mode is almost exactly perfect for GBI (only a very tiny amount of underscan), apart from the typical ULL tearing that happens. But that tearing would happen on a PVM too, and it's easy to ignore: it only happens very occasionally, and then goes away after a minute or two.

Yeah, the ULL version is incompatible with the Framemeister. The frame rate just doesn't work on it. You get a blank screen with the occasional flash of pixel garbage.

No, that's not correct, at least not for RGB-SCART. The reproducible tearing on the other hand bothers me so I wouldn't use ULL in the first place. LL is not bad lagwise anyway so I'm ok with that.

[Guspaz]

The reproducible tearing on the other hand bothers me so I wouldn't use ULL in the first place. LL is not bad lagwise anyway so I'm ok with that.

That one is dependent on your particular GC/GBP rather than the framemeister, though. It comes from the GBP and the GC framerate being subtly out of sync: apparently he can get the framerate really close, but they're not in lockstep. How long it takes for the problem to occur, and how long it lasts when it does, is dependent on the particular hardware. Some people report it happens after a few minutes, some people report only after a few hours.

I'm somewhere in between (doesn't happen in a few minutes, doesn't happen in a few hours), but it goes away rather quickly when it happens, so the ULL is working OK for me.

Certainly the LL version is a good alternative if you've got the tearing problem bad.

[lechu]

Does the ULL version not work with the Framemeister? Not that it should matter, I suppose, ULL and LL should have the same geometry. But the lower lag would be nice.

Luckily the ULL version works very well with my projector, and the projector's zoom mode is almost exactly perfect for GBI (only a very tiny amount of underscan), apart from the typical ULL tearing that happens. But that tearing would happen on a PVM too, and it's easy to ignore: it only happens very occasionally, and then goes away after a minute or two.

Yeah, the ULL version is incompatible with the Framemeister. The frame rate just doesn't work on it. You get a blank screen with the occasional flash of pixel garbage.

FBX, I use your profiles all the time, but I'm having trouble with the Gamecube. I have my TV set to full pixel, but the Gamecube profile is zoomed in way too far. I'm using the Interlaced profile (since I don't have component cables).

You're using 1080p right? Can you tell me what the ZOOM settings are at when you try to use the Gamecube profile? Also can you tell me the name of the profile? This will help me double-check it on my end to make sure it's kosher. Edit: I see you mentioned you are not using the component cables. That's probably the problem. I only designed them for use with the component cables Nintendo made. However, I do have S_video on hand if that's what you are using. Let me know and I'll develop a new profile based on the cable you are using.

I'm on 1080P. I'm using GCBCOMIN.

Zoom_Size: 21
Zoom_H_Pos: 50
Zoom_V_Pos: 50
Zoom_Width: 28
Zoom_Overscan: 86

[NormalFish]

I don't have a unit, but if someone tested ULL gbi with multiple configurations of firmware and cable, it'd be nice to know what works.

[austin532]

I'm on 1080P. I'm using GCBCOMIN.

Zoom_Size: 21
Zoom_H_Pos: 50
Zoom_V_Pos: 50
Zoom_Width: 28
Zoom_Overscan: 86

I can tell you right now that your Zoom Size is way off but yeah it looks like the GCBCOMIN and GCBCOMPR are set to a 5X scale. At least that's what it looks like on my end.

[AndehX]

ULL version works fine with my Framemeister.

[FBX]

ULL version works fine with my Framemeister.

Must be a case-by-case basis then. ULL doesn't work on mine, and it doesn't work for the guys at My Life in Gaming either.

[FBX]

I'm on 1080P. I'm using GCBCOMIN.

Zoom_Size: 21
Zoom_H_Pos: 50
Zoom_V_Pos: 50
Zoom_Width: 28
Zoom_Overscan: 86

That's not right at all, and it's likely due to attempting to use settings that are only stored for the D-terminal input on your video/s-video input. The numbers should be:

Zoom_Size: 99
Zoom_H_Pos: 50
Zoom_V_Pos: 50
Zoom_Width: 47
Zoom_Overscan: 100

Also in The Visual_Set options, I have V_POS set to 33 as I noticed the Gamecube image on my end is a hair lower than dead center.

...but yeah it looks like the GCBCOMIN and GCBCOMPR are set to a 5X scale. At least that's what it looks like on my end.

Actually the standard Gamecube profiles are not integer scaled. They are instead set to fill the screen vertically, and as such, scanlines are not recommended for them. I did them this way because games like Windwaker have annoying garbage that appears in the bottom line of graphics.

[austin532]

I'm on 1080P. I'm using GCBCOMIN.

Zoom_Size: 21
Zoom_H_Pos: 50
Zoom_V_Pos: 50
Zoom_Width: 28
Zoom_Overscan: 86

That's not right at all, and it's likely due to attempting to use settings that are only stored for the D-terminal input on your video/s-video input. The numbers should be:

Zoom_Size: 99
Zoom_H_Pos: 50
Zoom_V_Pos: 50
Zoom_Width: 47
Zoom_Overscan: 100

Also in The Visual_Set options, I have V_POS set to 33 as I noticed the Gamecube image on my end is a hair lower than dead center.

...but yeah it looks like the GCBCOMIN and GCBCOMPR are set to a 5X scale. At least that's what it looks like on my end.

Actually the standard Gamecube profiles are not integer scaled. They are instead set to fill the screen vertically, and as such, scanlines are not recommended for them. I did them this way because games like Windwaker have annoying garbage that appears in the bottom line of graphics.

Ah, that explains it. I don't think the Gamecube uses square pixels anyway and games like Metroid Prime look better with perfect circles.

[AndehX]

ULL version works fine with my Framemeister.

Must be a case-by-case basis then. ULL doesn't work on mine, and it doesn't work for the guys at My Life in Gaming either.

I have a sync stripper built into the Framemeister's SCART adapter, not sure if that affects it at all.

[lechu]

I'm on 1080P. I'm using GCBCOMIN.

Zoom_Size: 21
Zoom_H_Pos: 50
Zoom_V_Pos: 50
Zoom_Width: 28
Zoom_Overscan: 86

That's not right at all, and it's likely due to attempting to use settings that are only stored for the D-terminal input on your video/s-video input. The numbers should be:

Zoom_Size: 99
Zoom_H_Pos: 50
Zoom_V_Pos: 50
Zoom_Width: 47
Zoom_Overscan: 100

Also in The Visual_Set options, I have V_POS set to 33 as I noticed the Gamecube image on my end is a hair lower than dead center.

...but yeah it looks like the GCBCOMIN and GCBCOMPR are set to a 5X scale. At least that's what it looks like on my end.

Actually the standard Gamecube profiles are not integer scaled. They are instead set to fill the screen vertically, and as such, scanlines are not recommended for them. I did them this way because games like Windwaker have annoying garbage that appears in the bottom line of graphics.

I figured as much. When I saw a zoom size of 21 I thought it was bizarre.

I was thinking of going through all your settings profile by profile and writing out the settings in a document Just for trouble shooting purposes. If I ever do (since that's a lot of work for you) I'll send it to you for your site.

[FBX]

ULL version works fine with my Framemeister.

Must be a case-by-case basis then. ULL doesn't work on mine, and it doesn't work for the guys at My Life in Gaming either.

I have a sync stripper built into the Framemeister's SCART adapter, not sure if that affects it at all.

I'm using the component cables into the D-Terminal. What are you using that would go into the SCART adapter?

I was thinking of going through all your settings profile by profile and writing out the settings in a document Just for trouble shooting purposes. If I ever do (since that's a lot of work for you) I'll send it to you for your site.

I'm actually going to be redesigning my web pages to feature exactly that, so you won't have to worry about it. The format will be as follows:

1. Graphic logo for the console

2. Each profile written out with values.

3. Screenshot showing how each profile will look when properly running.

4. Tips for dealing with alignment issues.

The main page will feature a clickable thumbnail of each console that links into the dedicated page for that console. This will decrease unwanted transfers of pics and images of console profiles the user may not be interested in. Lastly the back ground story will be moved to a separate page. This way, the main page will just be the thumbnail links and the link to the profile package.

[AndehX]

I'm using the component cables into the D-Terminal. What are you using that would go into the SCART adapter?

PAL Gamecube RGB SCART -> Shinybow SB-3715 -> Framemeister/PVM