XRGB-mini Framemeister

[austin532]

I will say that even with perfect pixel clarity, people generally don't like sharp focus on PS2 or Gamecube polygonal games. I got a lot of thumbs up when I came up with H_SCALER: 10 - V_SCALER: 5 - SHARPNESS 2 (or 1 on some games), and this is because it smooths out the edges of polygons. This is basically what a CRT would be doing by its nature, which is why people often find those systems look better there than on an upscaled LCD display.

I agree but it's tough to get that perfect CRT image without some help from filters or shaders. Most CRT's I've seen smooth out polygons while keeping the image sharp and clear which is my ideal picture for retro gaming.

Base sharpness on the TV is turned completely off (it's one of those sets where zero/off means no artificial sharpening is applied).

Are you sure? Setting Sharpness to 0 on my Sony tends to give a blurry image when everything else is turned off. It looks about right around 32-40 when sitting about 6ft away. I know other brands like Samsung add artificial sharpness as soon as you go anywhere near 10.

[TheShadowRunner]

Are you sure? Setting Sharpness to 0 on my Sony tends to give a blurry image when everything else is turned off. It looks about right around 32-40 when sitting about 6ft away. I know other brands like Samsung add artificial sharpness as soon as you go anywhere near 10.

Hmm afaik all Sony LCD HDTVs are the "zero/off means no artificial sharpening" type.
If it looks blurry to you it's because you've gotten used to the artificial sharpening (but looking right at 32-40, holy shit), it's in fact how the image is supposed to look in its natural form.
Or you've got a special Sony TV ^^;

[FBX]

Before moving on to do PS2 component tests as per Fudoh's suggestion, I decided to do a side-by-side test of Gamecube going straight into my Sony TV versus using my 'GCPROCM' Framemeister profile. Thankfully I was able to get some pretty good pics of both to compare with, and the tripod kept things rock-steady between shoots. These photos were done with the same internal TV color settings. Right away I noticed the Framemeister's saturation levels are a bit too high, and this even with the fact that my profiles have it turned down a couple notches.

At any rate, I was thrilled to see that I still prefer my custom 480p profile over the straight feed into the TV set. For the settings used in profile pic, I used HS: 11, VS: 5, and Sharpness: 1.

First the straight-into-the-TV pic:

Spoiler

Now my profile feed from the Framemeister:

Spoiler

Other than the saturation issue (which I will of course turn down in future updates), I dare say it's just as good as straight feed, if not better edge smoothing.

Edit: Also discovered 16:9 mode on the TV still leaves pillar boxing on 16:9 Gamecube games. That right there is a deal-breaker on its own for me. The Framemeister gave me the ability to custom-zoom the image to exactly fit the borders of the TV.

[austin532]

Are you sure? Setting Sharpness to 0 on my Sony tends to give a blurry image when everything else is turned off. It looks about right around 32-40 when sitting about 6ft away. I know other brands like Samsung add artificial sharpness as soon as you go anywhere near 10.

Hmm afaik all Sony LCD HDTVs are the "zero/off means no artificial sharpening" type.
If it looks blurry to you it's because you've gotten used to the artificial sharpening (but looking right at 32-40, holy shit), it's in fact how the image is supposed to look in its natural form.
Or you've got a special Sony TV ^^;

Maybe, but I've ran several sharpness test and the 30's look sharp without any ringing. I am in Game Mode with all extra features turned off. Also your distance from the TV makes a big difference as well. If you put your face directly in front of the TV than yes it's possible you will see some minor ringing at 32 but it is recommended by many that you adjust sharpness in your normal seating position which is what I did.

[Exidna]

Are you sure? Setting Sharpness to 0 on my Sony tends to give a blurry image when everything else is turned off. It looks about right around 32-40 when sitting about 6ft away. I know other brands like Samsung add artificial sharpness as soon as you go anywhere near 10.

Hmm afaik all Sony LCD HDTVs are the "zero/off means no artificial sharpening" type.
If it looks blurry to you it's because you've gotten used to the artificial sharpening (but looking right at 32-40, holy shit), it's in fact how the image is supposed to look in its natural form.
Or you've got a special Sony TV ^^;

It depends on the TV. The lower-end Sony here has to be set to 0 for "no sharpening" while the higher-end HX9 needs to be set to 50 for "no sharpening".
Below 50 it actually starts to blur the image - but it is frequency dependent so it is not immediately obvious until you try to watch a Blu-ray or another good quality source and wonder why there is no texture or film grain in the image. Edges remain sharp.

First the interlaced Wind Waker heart: http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/wwh ... rlaced.jpg
Now the progressive scan heart under the EXACT same focus settings: http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/wwh ... essive.jpg

Here it is from the source:

I will say that even with perfect pixel clarity, people generally don't like sharp focus on PS2 or Gamecube polygonal games. I got a lot of thumbs up when I came up with H_SCALER: 10 - V_SCALER: 5 - SHARPNESS 2 (or 1 on some games), and this is because it smooths out the edges of polygons. This is basically what a CRT would be doing by its nature, which is why people often find those systems look better there than on an upscaled LCD display.

I agree but it's tough to get that perfect CRT image without some help from filters or shaders. Most CRT's I've seen smooth out polygons while keeping the image sharp and clear which is my ideal picture for retro gaming.

Of course it is far more limited in scope, since the real hardware will play every game, but 3D games are where emulation really shines, as you can render at a higher resolution instead of trying to upscale.
With widescreen and framerate hacks, this makes emulation a far more interesting proposition for older 3D games.

Wind Waker:
Native res
1080p in Dolphin
(note: I believe there are mods to replace the UI with high-res widescreen art if that sort of thing bothers you - or you could play it in high-res 4:3)

When you can see the games rendered at a higher resolution with proper texture filtering and anti-aliasing, they look far better than I could have thought.
PS2 games seem to benefit from this in particular. There was a ridiculous amount of detail in FFXII that you just never saw when it was running on the PS2 hardware for example.

[austin532]

Yes, we all know that emulation can provide vastly superior graphics and that the 5th and 6th generation of consoles greatly benefit from it but that just opens up the whole Console vs Emulation debate which has been discussed time and time again.

Honestly I don't mind the native low res graphics when using actual hardware as long as it looks good. Plus seeing as how most of the people on this forum strive for perfection by putting their heart and soul into it, I feel like using an emulator is cheating and is far from being ideal.

[Smashbro29]

Yeah let's not muddle this up with emulation talk.

[Exidna]

Sorry, not meaning to start anything.
Was just pointing out that for certain games/systems (Wind Waker being one of them) sometimes you're better off with emulation than trying to upscale the system's native output.
Personally I don't mind low-res 2D art, but I find low-res low-framerate 3D difficult to play on a flat panel, no matter what you do for upscaling. It only ever looks right on a CRT in my opinion.

[Xan]

Wind Waker:
Native res
1080p in Dolphin
(note: I believe there are mods to replace the UI with high-res widescreen art if that sort of thing bothers you - or you could play it in high-res 4:3)

When you can see the games rendered at a higher resolution with proper texture filtering and anti-aliasing, they look far better than I could have thought.
PS2 games seem to benefit from this in particular. There was a ridiculous amount of detail in FFXII that you just never saw when it was running on the PS2 hardware for example.

I prefer the lower res shot because the pixelization causes a DoF-like effect, so there is a bit of contrast going on between the sharp foreground and blurrier background. On the 1080p shot there is a lot less depth in the scene.

Generally running these old games (whether PC or console) in high resolutions tends to have an uncanny effect for me, the texture size just isn't up to spec for 1080p and it looks strange in conjunction with the overall sharp image. You can also see how the high resolution brings out the banding on the wood and sky. It's really a matter of opinion though, I understand why some people might prefer the emulated version. I do agree with the point about CRTs being preferable for low res stuff though.

[12345]

@FBX

I have a couple of questions regarding your profiles:

1. Is there a reason you set H_SCALER to 10 on your GCPROCM profile and to 11 on the FZGX one?
2. Why do you leave brightness on component untouched? I remember you set it to 37 in previous profiles which prevented blacks from being crushed, so why did you take that step back? This might also help desaturating the image without the need of the saturation setting.
3. I still don't get why you set ZOOM to 99 on the GCPROCM profile. I tested it on Windwaker and was perfectly fine with resetting it to 100.

Thanks and keep up the good work!

[Chocograph]

I'm underwhelmed by what I've seen so far on the FM. Tried my 60hz pal modded snes. Had to up the sync signal to somewhere between 22-28 and that works fine but the image itself is very noisy. Interference of some sorts. I'm using the normal adapter from retro cables uk. I pray it's the RGB cable itself and I've ordered a couple of new cables from the american expert ebayer. Supposedly these are quality cables and you're all using them too. On my CRT from 2000 my snes looks superb with the same cables...it's an old SNES. If the new cables doesn't produce new results I may look into installing new capacitors..that'll be a fairly easy job for me. But will it fix the problem?

[Fudoh]

I've ordered a couple of new cables from the american expert ebayer.

Note that SNES RGB cables for PAL systems are different from SNES RGB cables for NTSC systems.

[Chocograph]

I've ordered a couple of new cables from the american expert ebayer.

Note that SNES RGB cables for PAL systems are different from SNES RGB cables for NTSC systems.

Yup, I know. I also have the c sync chip adapter and get no picture at all. I didn't realize the pal 1chip was 60hz moddable but apparently so. I'm already looking through ebay.

[FBX]

@FBX

I have a couple of questions regarding your profiles:

1. Is there a reason you set H_SCALER to 10 on your GCPROCM profile and to 11 on the FZGX one?
2. Why do you leave brightness on component untouched? I remember you set it to 37 in previous profiles which prevented blacks from being crushed, so why did you take that step back? This might also help desaturating the image without the need of the saturation setting.
3. I still don't get why you set ZOOM to 99 on the GCPROCM profile. I tested it on Windwaker and was perfectly fine with resetting it to 100.

Thanks and keep up the good work!

1. Although the difference is minor, I felt a value of 11 smoothed the text just a little better on F-Zero GX. It's one of those 'tailor-made' profiles specifically for that game, much in the same way the centerings for it are tailor-made.

2. Brightness 37 originally was based on PS1 games being emulated for the PS2. I later found that there is no universal color settings that works for every game and system that goes into the D-Terminal. So as far as brightness and saturation goes, I leave that up to the user to adjust to their liking. My profiles are all about the scaling, focus, and positioning (though even positioning is not universal). Everything else is optional.

3. ZOOM 99 is based on the TV being set to "Full Pixel". If you set it to 100 and play Wind Waker, you'll be able to see the bottom scanline that sometimes is a different color than the rest of the graphics during the game. This was very disturbing and distracting to me. ZOOM 99 conveniently hides that scanline beyond the 1080 boundary.

[TheShadowRunner]

It depends on the TV. The lower-end Sony here has to be set to 0 for "no sharpening" while the higher-end HX9 needs to be set to 50 for "no sharpening".
Below 50 it actually starts to blur the image - but it is frequency dependent so it is not immediately obvious until you try to watch a Blu-ray or another good quality source and wonder why there is no texture or film grain in the image. Edges remain sharp.

Ok this is news to me and super retarded if really the case. Why would Sony go from the perfectly logic 0 = 0 sharpening to 50 = 0 sharpening..
Need to test on these newer sets..

[FBX]

First the interlaced Wind Waker heart:

Now the progressive scan heart under the EXACT same focus settings:

Here it is from the source:

Awesome!! This actually proves I was right about the progressive scan mode being more faithful to the original graphics!

[Fudoh]

It depends on the TV. The lower-end Sony here has to be set to 0 for "no sharpening" while the higher-end HX9 needs to be set to 50 for "no sharpening".

I have a HX9 in every-day use. 50 is too high and is most certainly adding some artificial sharpening. "Neutral" should be somewhere in the 25-30 range. But I also remember that difference scene modes tend to have different sharpness offsets... I'm also pretty sure that on the 2013 W6 a zero setting for sharpness is already blurring the signal. But neutral might indeed be a litte lower than on other sets. The defacto standard test for this is still a 1-pixel vertical stripe pattern.

[Exidna]

Awesome!! This actually proves I was right about the progressive scan mode being more faithful to the original graphics!

Strangely, the "progressive" image seems to have faint "scanlines" going through the picture.
There does seem to be a bit of color bleed, but if the box is processing in 4:2:2 that's unavoidable.

It depends on the TV. The lower-end Sony here has to be set to 0 for "no sharpening" while the higher-end HX9 needs to be set to 50 for "no sharpening".

I have a HX9 in every-day use. 50 is too high and is most certainly adding some artificial sharpening. "Neutral" should be somewhere in the 25-30 range. But I also remember that difference scene modes tend to have different sharpness offsets... I'm also pretty sure that on the 2013 W6 a zero setting for sharpness is already blurring the signal. But neutral might indeed be a litte lower than on other sets.

I should have been more clear rather than calling it an "HX9" - it's an HX900 that I have.
The HX920, if you have that, may be entirely different. It's possible that there are regional differences as well.

But on my set there is definitely no additional sharpening at 50, and a clear loss of high frequency detail below that.
Blu-ray starts to look like streaming video when you reduce it to 0.
The cheaper set - I'm not sure what model # it is specifically - was purchased in the same year, yet its video processing requires sharpness to be at 0.

So you can't universally say that '0' is ideal for all Sony TVs.
Similar situation with Panasonic TVs too - though that goes further back than LCDs, one of my old Panasonic CRTs required sharpness to be in the middle too. If I recall correctly the settings were unlabelled, but basically -2 to +2

The defacto standard test for this is still a 1-pixel vertical stripe pattern.

And that's the problem with this being frequency dependent.
When you look at most traditional sharpness patterns there is no difference between 50 or 0 on my set.

Modern sharpening algorithms are "smarter" than that.
Above 50 and you start seeing sharpening artifacts - though typically not a lot of ringing.
That mostly shows up when you use the "edge enhancer" feature.

But if you compare using a good Blu-ray of a film which is supposed to have visible grain - such as the remastered Alien Blu-ray, there is a huge difference between 50 and 0, with 50 being obviously correct.

[Fudoh]

I should have been more clear rather than calling it an "HX9" - it's an HX900 that I have.

same set over. HX905 in 52".

The cheaper set - I'm not sure what model # it is specifically - was purchased in the same year, yet its video processing requires sharpness to be at 0.

that's very well possible, but we're talking quite old TVs here. Sony complete overhauled their lineup with the 2013 models.

But if you compare using a good Blu-ray of a film which is supposed to have visible grain - such as the remastered Alien Blu-ray, there is a huge difference between 50 and 0, with 50 being obviously correct.

I don't feel it, sorry. I have a PC setup running next to the TV with the TV connected to an additional HDMI output on the PC and when I move video playback to the TV I feel that 50 is a lot sharper than the neutral pixel perfect rendering on the PC monitors. I'm not advocating a zero setting here. I just feel 30 is closer to the truth than 50.

[FBX]

Awesome!! This actually proves I was right about the progressive scan mode being more faithful to the original graphics!

Strangely, the "progressive" image seems to have faint "scanlines" going through the picture.
There does seem to be a bit of color bleed, but if the box is processing in 4:2:2 that's unavoidable.

Not only that, but there is significant noise in both modes when I zoomed in on the heart. The still shots don't reveal it, but imagine faint flickering of ghostly pixels all over. I suspect this is due to the analogue quality of the component signal being supplied by the Gamecube.

BTW, I have seen some videos of F-Zero GX running in Dolphin, and it looks spectacular! The game is in bad need of an official HD remaster.

[Grimakis]

Awesome!! This actually proves I was right about the progressive scan mode being more faithful to the original graphics!

Strangely, the "progressive" image seems to have faint "scanlines" going through the picture.
There does seem to be a bit of color bleed, but if the box is processing in 4:2:2 that's unavoidable.

Not only that, but there is significant noise in both modes when I zoomed in on the heart. The still shots don't reveal it, but imagine faint flickering of ghostly pixels all over. I suspect this is due to the analogue quality of the component signal being supplied by the Gamecube.

BTW, I have seen some videos of F-Zero GX running in Dolphin, and it looks spectacular! The game is in bad need of an official HD remaster.

How about a sequel... F-Zero hasn't had a game in 11, and the last one was a Japanese GBA exclusive.

[FBX]

How about a sequel... F-Zero hasn't had a game in 11, and the last one was a Japanese GBA exclusive.

I was reading about this, and it seems the Japanese are too 'scared it will fail' as to why they haven't invested in a sequel. They think the idea has been played out.

[CkRtech]

How about a sequel... F-Zero hasn't had a game in 11, and the last one was a Japanese GBA exclusive.

I was reading about this, and it seems the Japanese are too 'scared it will fail' as to why they haven't invested in a sequel. They think the idea has been played out.

There are actually two F-Zero tracks in Mario Kart 8 now. Maybe that is all you will get, or maybe it is a test-the-waters type of thing. <shrug>.

I haven't played GX. You guys have me wanting to pick it up.

[pyrotek85]

How about a sequel... F-Zero hasn't had a game in 11, and the last one was a Japanese GBA exclusive.

I was reading about this, and it seems the Japanese are too 'scared it will fail' as to why they haven't invested in a sequel. They think the idea has been played out.

There are actually two F-Zero tracks in Mario Kart 8 now. Maybe that is all you will get, or maybe it is a test-the-waters type of thing. <shrug>.

I haven't played GX. You guys have me wanting to pick it up.

Oh you should get it. Both the gameplay and visuals have both aged very well, and it's not terribly expensive either. I personally think it's the best looking game to release on the Gamecube, if not that whole generation. Just bear in mind that it's got a steep learning curve, this isn't Mario Kart.

[CkRtech]

Oh you should get it. Both the gameplay and visuals have both aged very well, and it's not terribly expensive either. I personally think it's the best looking game to release on the Gamecube, if not that whole generation. Just bear in mind that it's got a steep learning curve, this isn't Mario Kart.

I've unlocked Master difficulty on SNES F-Zero and can still compete at that level - Is that good enough for GX?

[pyrotek85]

Oh you should get it. Both the gameplay and visuals have both aged very well, and it's not terribly expensive either. I personally think it's the best looking game to release on the Gamecube, if not that whole generation. Just bear in mind that it's got a steep learning curve, this isn't Mario Kart.

I've unlocked Master difficulty on SNES F-Zero and can still compete at that level - Is that good enough for GX?

Hah probably better than me lol. It's the kind of game that I have to retrain myself for if I don't play it for a while, same with fighters. If you like a challenge it should deliver, but that's likely why they're hesitant to make a sequel. It probably wouldn't have the mass appeal that Mario Kart enjoys.

[FBX]

Oh you should get it. Both the gameplay and visuals have both aged very well, and it's not terribly expensive either. I personally think it's the best looking game to release on the Gamecube, if not that whole generation. Just bear in mind that it's got a steep learning curve, this isn't Mario Kart.

I've unlocked Master difficulty on SNES F-Zero and can still compete at that level - Is that good enough for GX?

Also a full master of the original F-Zero. That game is a cakewalk compared to how hard GX gets. Even so, the game looks so fluid and smooth in progressive scan mode that's a must-have in any Gamecube collection.

[austin532]

Just curious, how is everyone else adjusting the Component settings? What tools or test patterns are you using if any. Are you using certain games to make adjustments? I know Component is tricky to get just right.

[FBX]

Just curious, how is everyone else adjusting the Component settings? What tools or test patterns are you using if any. Are you using certain games to make adjustments? I know Component is tricky to get just right.

You mean like brightness and gamma? One of my games, SSX 3 on the PS2, has a video calibration section in the options. So I just had a look there when I was making sure the brightness was kosher, but it really seems to vary depending on the system and game.

[austin532]

Yes, that's what I mean. I had forgotten that SSX 3 had that nice calibration setting. Not surprised though. I did not like the game as much as SSX and Tricky. Played through the game once with my main character and then shelfed it.

The brightness pattern is very similar to the old THX brightness pattern that certain DVD's had. Not surprised though as the game is THX certified. The problem is as you said each game has different standards. The best bet then is to probably use a calibration disc with the PS2 since there are no calibration tests for the system.