XRGB-mini Framemeister

[geekmiki]

Thanks for your help!
The problem was solved by using a SCART->DIN adapter with a sync stripper.

I avoid strippers and adapters by simply using a JP-21 CSync RGB cable. No fuss, and perfect quality going straight into the supplied mini cable. Then again, you're on PAL format, so I don't know if JP-21 cables work on those consoles.

I'm not on PAL, this is an SFC as I stated in my initial post.

I might try a JP21 cable with CSync... Not sure it will solve my problem though, since this is only happening with one game running from a SD2SNES.

[moonlightaffair]

So what kind of Framemeister settings work good for SNES?

Like, resolution (can it to 1080p or max 720p like NES because scanlines won't operate at 1080?)

IMAGE_MODE = ?
AUTO_SCALER = ?
SHARPNESS = ?
H SCALE = ?
V SCALE = ?

Any other settings for optimizing SNES?

I'm using regular SNES with a RGB Scart cable wired for Composite Sync. If your SNES is able to output Composite Sync after the mod, you don't need the sync stripper. If you are trying to use composite video as sync, then you need the sync stripped.

I guess my advice would be "mod first, get cable second"

http://retrorgb.com/snescsync.html

The above link explains how to mod for Composite Sync on SNES Mini. I personally am very happy with the SNES 1's output, but it looks like the Mini might give slightly better color.

Hmm I have 3 SFCs, all 1st gen models: 1x2chip, 1x1CHIP1, 1x1CHIP3. All of them work perfectly with the Mini using composite video, no sync stripper, and the default value of 9 for Sync on the Mini.
Using the offical SHVC-010 cable and Mini fw 1.11 (latest).
I believe the SFC is one of those systems that play along just fine with the Mini with no tweaks needed whatsoever, contrary to the MDrive..

[TheShadowRunner]

So what kind of Framemeister settings work good for SNES?

Like, resolution (can it to 1080p or max 720p like NES because scanlines won't operate at 1080?)

IMAGE_MODE = ?
AUTO_SCALER = ?
SHARPNESS = ?
H SCALE = ?
V SCALE = ?

Any other settings for optimizing SNES?

I'm using pretty standard stuff,
Image mode: picture
auto scaler : off
sharpness : 0
hscaler: 5
vscaler : 6
at 720p with scanlines

geekmiki: what game is it and when does it happen in said game?

[BuckoA51]

Hmm I have 3 SFCs, all 1st gen models: 1x2chip, 1x1CHIP1, 1x1CHIP3. All of them work perfectly with the Mini using composite video, no sync stripper, and the default value of 9 for Sync on the Mini.
Using the offical SHVC-010 cable and Mini fw 1.11 (latest).
I believe the SFC is one of those systems that play along just fine with the Mini with no tweaks needed whatsoever, contrary to the MDrive..

Definitely not the case here, my SFC drove me round the bend when I was testing a Composite video for sync cable with it last (plugged directly into the Mini, no sync stripper). Switching to either a sync striper or CSYNC cable cured the problem right away.

Also, I'm using an SD2SNES too.

[TheShadowRunner]

Also, I'm using an SD2SNES too.

So am I..
I wonder if I can reproduce geekmiki's issue.

[CkRtech]

I always wonder if Micomsoft is still doing work on any firmware updates for the mini, but their releases have been spaced almost a year apart since mid-2012. Those of you that have e-mailed them - Do they tend to respond in a semi-timely manner (within a week)? I wonder if simply asking them if they have an eta on the next firmware would be worth it.

I'm sure their response would be something quite ambiguous such as: "We hope to have a new firmware soon. Thank you."

[Jademalo]

I did a quick test to compare RGB and YCbCr output on the Mini. The RGB output looks brighter than my TV, so this is not a perfect representation of what the Mini will look like for you. My capture card (SC-500N1) cannot capture RGB nor YCbCr 4:4:4 without downsampling to YUY2 4:2:2, so this is not 100% what the Mini outputs.

Emulated screenshot
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/345 ... st_emu.png

RGB output
shrub_test_rgb.png

YCbCR output
shrub_test_ycbcr.png

ScreenshotComparison.com

Color pattern: RGB, YCbCr

From what I can see the YCbCr output is very close to the emulated picture, but the bright greens appear darker. The RGB output has correct bright green on the shrub, but the other darker green shades also appear too intense. Reds in RGB output are a bit darker than in YCbCr output mode. I want to stress again that I can see the middle color of the shrub on my TV in RGB output, so there is obviously different processing done. But I assume that the RGB screenshot shows the same problem with my capture card that some people have on their TVs.

Overall the YCbCr output looks more pleasant.

Edit: I just noticed that the status window says that the Mini outputs at 60.00Hz. It actually outputs 60.10Hz according to my capture card.

Hmm, that's interesting. It looks like the bush green is correct on rgb, but all of the other greens are wrong. YCbCr has correct everything else, but wrong bush green.
One key thing I plan to test when I get around to it is comparing it to my BVM, which as I've mentioned has been properly colour calibrated. That should matter, since there might be something else at play on the Emulated image.

Also Sunshine emulated had YCbCr level greens, so that's a thing.

[geekmiki]

So am I..
I wonder if I can reproduce geekmiki's issue.

Well, I would be curious to know if it's just me or everyone...

Test pattern:
-SFC 1CHIP w/ original JP Nintendo power adapter
-Framemeister FW 1.11
-SD2SNES FW 1.6
-SCART to DIN adapter (no sync stripper)
-ROM: Rushing Beat

Let meknow if you also have sync problems with that setup!

[TheShadowRunner]

I always wonder if Micomsoft is still doing work on any firmware updates for the mini, but their releases have been spaced almost a year apart since mid-2012. Those of you that have e-mailed them - Do they tend to respond in a semi-timely manner (within a week)?

They replied in 6 hours, that was the biggest surprise. That was in october. I've since sent them a mail in january wondering if they had any update on the matter (I requested RGB full/ limited/ YCbCr discrete settings in my first message), no word since..

Test pattern:
-SFC 1CHIP w/ original JP Nintendo power adapter
-Framemeister FW 1.11
-SD2SNES FW 1.6
-SCART to DIN adapter (no sync stripper)
-ROM: Rushing Beat

Let meknow if you also have sync problems with that setup!

Which Rushing beat exactly, and when does it happen + what kind of sync issue?

[FBX]

My understanding is that it can introduce some artifacts though, due to the composite video still being part of the video.

If the cable is well made there won't be any artifacts.

I'm not so sure about that. The cable would have to include a stripper in order to be completely fool-proof. I've seen SNES RGB images that had diagonal interference specifically because of using composite video for sync, and the CSync version was completely clean on the same console. Personally I think the SCART method of using composite video for sync is inferior to straight CSync.

So what kind of Framemeister settings work good for SNES?

Like, resolution (can it to 1080p or max 720p like NES because scanlines won't operate at 1080?)

IMAGE_MODE = ?
AUTO_SCALER = ?
SHARPNESS = ?
H SCALE = ?
V SCALE = ?

Any other settings for optimizing SNES?

On a 1080p display, 1080p output will look the sharpest, but if you're a scanline fanatic, you'll want to stick with 720p.

If you want clean pixels without any sort of scaling artifacts, read my 4x and 5x guide for 1080p here:

http://www.firebrandx.com/snes1chip03framemeister.html

[geekmiki]

Which Rushing beat exactly, and when does it happen + what kind of sync issue?

To check the issue, please check this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxn6KnRrAKw

Regarding Rushing Beat it's the JP version from the No-Name set (If you want that exact rom, pm me)

[BuckoA51]

Even with my CSYNC cable I always get a sync dropout during the title sequence on the game Arkanoid - DOH it again. That's with a multi-chip console though.

[TheShadowRunner]

To check the issue, please check this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxn6KnRrAKw
Regarding Rushing Beat it's the JP version from the No-Name set (If you want that exact rom, pm me)

You must mean no-intro ^^
Ok, I tested with:
-SFC 1CHIP with Voltcraft power adapter
-Framemeister FW 1.11
-SD2SNES v0.1.7 preview 3

Results: I do see at the top and bottom of the screen the very outter line flickering, the rest is otherwise perfect. This is due to SD2SNES in-game hooks from fw v0.1.7 preview 3. If I disable the hooks completely (L+R+Start+Y), the flaw is gone and the image perfect. Are you sure you're on SD2SNES v1.6? This doesn't have hooks implemented and should be perfect straight away.

[TheShadowRunner]

Even with my CSYNC cable I always get a sync dropout during the title sequence on the game Arkanoid - DOH it again. That's with a multi-chip console though.

I can't reproduce even with (the less clean) composite video as sync.. (on 1 CHIP)

[geekmiki]

You must mean no-intro ^^
Ok, I tested with:
-SFC 1CHIP with Voltcraft power adapter
-Framemeister FW 1.11
-SD2SNES v0.1.7 preview 3

Results: I do see at the top and bottom of the screen the very outter line flickering, the rest is otherwise perfect. This is due to SD2SNES in-game hooks from fw v0.1.7 preview 3. If I disable the hooks completely (L+R+Start+Y), the flaw is gone and the image perfect. Are you sure you're on SD2SNES v1.6? This doesn't have hooks implemented and should be perfect straight away.

No-intro of course...

100% sure it's FW 1.6, and as you've seen on my video I have a very visible flickering at the top. I have other power supplies lying around... Let me try another one and report back.

[TheShadowRunner]

100% sure it's FW 1.6, and as you've seen on my video I have a very visible flickering at the top. I have other power supplies lying around... Let me try another one and report back.

If the power adapter doesn't change anything, I'd suggest you try 1.7beta3 anyway and check with and without the hooks (they're enabled by default and (L+R+Start+Y) will disable them until you switch off the SFC).

[hobbla]

I'm using a Framemeister with 1.11 firmware and FBX's settings from his pixel purist site (Thanks FBX!)

For testing purposes I'm using SCART to RGB in on a Gen/MD. I don't have pictures to prove it, but on my calibrated Vizio e500i-b1 I have to use YCbCr on the Framemeister to get accurate colors. With RGB out (regardless of deep color enabled or not) I have way over saturated greens.

I used a Colormunki, ColorHCFR and the 240p test suite on the Genesis, and found the following (with some rounding b/c I'm writing this from memory):

RGB Deviation from reference luminance:
R: -30%
G: +30%
B: -30%

YCbCr Deviation from reference luminance:
R: -3%
G: +3%
B: -3%

Gray scale had a dE of <3.0 on both RGB and YCbCr though. So it specifically has to do with colors, not grayscale. Could just be the brand of TVs?

[moonlightaffair]

Any recommendations for modding/configuring an SNES Mini for use with SD2SNES? I've heard you may have to replace power capacitors 'cause the SD2SNES is power-hungry, or use a different higher power adapter for the SNES.

Curious what is hooks/no-hooks on the SD2SNES firmware mean?

Just doing some reading...thought I may benefit from you guys' expertise.

Thanks everyone for all the replies to my n00b qs.

No hookup every goes flawlessly...trying to root out problems before they become so.

Also, I'm using an SD2SNES too.

So am I..
I wonder if I can reproduce geekmiki's issue.

[eightbitminiboss]

Any recommendations for modding/configuring an SNES Mini for use with SD2SNES? I've heard you may have to replace power capacitors 'cause the SD2SNES is power-hungry, or use a different higher power adapter for the SNES.

Curious what is hooks/no-hooks on the SD2SNES firmware mean?

Just doing some reading...thought I may benefit from you guys' expertise.

Thanks everyone for all the replies to my n00b qs.

No hookup every goes flawlessly...trying to root out problems before they become so.

Also, I'm using an SD2SNES too.

So am I..
I wonder if I can reproduce geekmiki's issue.

The most recent preview FW's allow you to press button combinations to load up the SD2SNES menu or reboot while in game, those are the hooks.

[Smashbro29]

I used to blame colors being washed out on my wii being old and deteriorating. It caused flickering dots so why not this, right?

Wrong.

I got a new Wii and tested 480i vs 480p No big changes to settings or anything like that. I'm pretty much running stock.

http://imgur.com/A81Ul5x,4GiSK9z#0

480p is not a good option via component cables. At all. I would fiddle with the mini for days and it never looked as good as 480i does right now with no effort.

I still want to convert all my component to RGB so I can get the full benefit and use 480p someday though.

[pyrotek85]

I used to blame colors being washed out on my wii being old and deteriorating. It caused flickering dots so why not this, right?

Wrong.

I got a new Wii and tested 480i vs 480p No big changes to settings or anything like that. I'm pretty much running stock.

http://imgur.com/A81Ul5x,4GiSK9z#0

480p is not a good option via component cables. At all. I would fiddle with the mini for days and it never looked as good as 480i does right now with no effort.

I still want to convert all my component to RGB so I can get the full benefit and use 480p someday though.

Yeah Wii video output has always been garbage for me, I just use the Wii U to play those games.

[Smashbro29]

I used to blame colors being washed out on my wii being old and deteriorating. It caused flickering dots so why not this, right?

Wrong.

I got a new Wii and tested 480i vs 480p No big changes to settings or anything like that. I'm pretty much running stock.

http://imgur.com/A81Ul5x,4GiSK9z#0

480p is not a good option via component cables. At all. I would fiddle with the mini for days and it never looked as good as 480i does right now with no effort.

I still want to convert all my component to RGB so I can get the full benefit and use 480p someday though.

Yeah Wii video output has always been garbage for me, I just use the Wii U to play those games.

I mean I guess I could but 480i honestly looks pretty great to me. I think it needs some tweaks though because green hill zone's floor is still really bright.

[pyrotek85]

I used to blame colors being washed out on my wii being old and deteriorating. It caused flickering dots so why not this, right?

Wrong.

I got a new Wii and tested 480i vs 480p No big changes to settings or anything like that. I'm pretty much running stock.

http://imgur.com/A81Ul5x,4GiSK9z#0

480p is not a good option via component cables. At all. I would fiddle with the mini for days and it never looked as good as 480i does right now with no effort.

I still want to convert all my component to RGB so I can get the full benefit and use 480p someday though.

Yeah Wii video output has always been garbage for me, I just use the Wii U to play those games.

I mean I guess I could but 480i honestly looks pretty great to me. I think it needs some tweaks though because green hill zone's floor is still really bright.

Oh yeah if you're happy with the 480i then go for it, I just couldn't stand it myself. And I don't need the Wii for Gamecube compatibility, since I just use an actual Gamecube and output 480p. So for me I have no need for it, the Wii U covers anything that the Wii could.

[Smashbro29]

Oh yeah if you're happy with the 480i then go for it, I just couldn't stand it myself. And I don't need the Wii for Gamecube compatibility, since I just use an actual Gamecube and output 480p. So for me I have no need for it, the Wii U covers anything that the Wii could.

My plan if I ever get the free time to do it is set up my component to convert to RGB. Fudoh even gave me the basic steps. That way I can have a set it and forget it solution that doesn't require me to slash up expensive cables I may need if a new box ever comes out with good component support.

[micro]

Hey guys, it's me again, the guy from page 240.

Remember, I've made an oscillator with two different selectable frequencies and installed it into a PAL Megadrive 2 (PSX and NeoGeo MVS too) to resolve some issues with the Framemeister.

In case one of you guys wants to rebuild this oscillator, I've finally finished the firmware and Windows GUI for the programming device. Everything can be found on: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5744.0

Over and out!

[broken harbour]

How come I can't get Dolby Digital surround sound thru my Framemeister? I'm playing an original Xbox game, using component cables, going into the Mini, and my receiver only recognizes Stereo or PLII. Back of the game box says it supports DD, and the Xbox itself has the audio set up properly....

[CkRtech]

How come I can't get Dolby Digital surround sound thru my Framemeister?

Dolby Digital requires a the signal be delivered digitally via something like digital coax, optical, or HDMI. You won't be able to get that via analog RCA.

[broken harbour]

Ah I thought it could go through component.

[FBX]

Ah I thought it could go through component.

Component only carries picture elements, never audio. The extra R/L audio jacks are just bundled with it, but they use the same lines as a standard A/V cable that typically comes packaged with older consoles.

Like the other reply states: Digital audio has to come from a special output line, which is usually is either fiber-optic or contained in HDMI. Occasionally some devices will support 'coaxial digital audio' which basically looks like an orange RCA jack.

[kel]

Hey guys, it's me again, the guy from page 240.

Remember, I've made an oscillator with two different selectable frequencies and installed it into a PAL Megadrive 2 (PSX and NeoGeo MVS too) to resolve some issues with the Framemeister.

In case one of you guys wants to rebuild this oscillator, I've finally finished the firmware and Windows GUI for the programming device. Everything can be found on: http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5744.0

Over and out!

Great work micro, thanks for releasing it. I would love to give this a try on the PSOne, I never did get around to buying an NTSC PSOne.

Some other ideas also come to mind for it like making a more accurate clock for the Gamecube digital audio mod to get rid of the jitter or maybe toy around with the NTSC SNES clock to bring the framerate down to 59.94hz instead of 60.10hz just to see if it is possible out of curiosity. Maybe games like earthbound would benefit with the obvious framerate stutter or maybe not but it would still be interesting to toy around with.

Any chance you could also add the schematic to that thread please so that people can design their own boards around other uses?