XRGB-mini Framemeister

[blizzz]

I [...] hope that it will be possible to play us/japanese ps1 games from disc or psn with the same quality as playing them on a original ntsc ps1.

Short answer: No

PS1 games on the PS3 are emulated and output at whatever you've set the system to, not at the native 240p resolution. They are already quite laggy as it is, so adding the Framemeister for scanlines is not a worthwhile trade-off.

[MartijnK]

Ok, I guess I will look for a ntsc ps1 on ebay or whatever.

Btw blizz, thanks for your advice on the pal snes/wii VC 1-2 weeks ago. It works like a charm.
But again a ntsc snes is also on my wish list. There are a few 240p import ntsc games on the pal VC however (rondo of blood, chrono trigger, ogre battle 64). And the pc engine games are allmost all in 480i (R-type, Thunder/soldier games etc)!

[alebove]

I [...] hope that it will be possible to play us/japanese ps1 games from disc or psn with the same quality as playing them on a original ntsc ps1.

Short answer: No

PS1 games on the PS3 are emulated and output at whatever you've set the system to, not at the native 240p resolution. They are already quite laggy as it is, so adding the Framemeister for scanlines is not a worthwhile trade-off.

Got it, thanks. I can use a modded PS2 so can play imports there. Apart from a "noise" issue, is there any other benefit to connect the PS2 to the Xmini via RGB/scart rather than via component/D terminal?

[alebove]

Could someone explain or point to a site that explains the different modes like "Under", "Normal2", "LB", "LB2" "GAME_LB1" and "GAME_LB2" modes? I think I know what X1 and X2 do because of the Wiki but I am not really sure what the others do exactly. They appear to be different levels of Zoom. "Under" mode for instance. Is that actually showing 960 lines when the Framemeister is outputting 1080p which seems like it would be better to use for scaling 240p content?

Thanks.

Similar to your question, I've found that there are a lot of things that the wiki is not covering for the Xmini. Are there other resources that cover all of the options?

Thanks!

[Fudoh]

Are there other resources that cover all of the options?

this thread covers everything.

[alebove]

Are there other resources that cover all of the options?

this thread covers everything.

About 6-9 months ago I went through most of it, but didn't have the Xmini so didn't really take any notes and it's easy to forget until you try on the device itself - I'll slowly go through things again, thanks

[Fudoh]

feel free to ask some specifics. Some things are just obvious though - the aspect ratio controls for example. I mean, what's the point in trying to explain them when you can simply try them and see the results live and on your own ?

[broken harbour]

Are there other resources that cover all of the options?

this thread covers everything.

At 237 pages, it's admittedly a bit unwieldy at this point.

[iast]

Recent Framemeister convert here with a question. I'm trying to get scanlines to show properly with TATE games, notably Sky Shark at the moment. If I have X1_V-LINE on they look nice but they also shrink the game screen on my monitor. Trying to get proper scanlines while having the game fill as much of my monitor as possible.

[austin532]

Could someone explain or point to a site that explains the different modes like "Under", "Normal2", "LB", "LB2" "GAME_LB1" and "GAME_LB2" modes? I think I know what X1 and X2 do because of the Wiki but I am not really sure what the others do exactly. They appear to be different levels of Zoom. "Under" mode for instance. Is that actually showing 960 lines when the Framemeister is outputting 1080p which seems like it would be better to use for scaling 240p content?

Thanks.

As far as I can tell the X1 displays the source's native resolution. Meaning 240p will look very small on a 1080p TV. I believe X2 is just double the size of X1 but it does not divide evenly while in 720p and won't work. The LB modes just Zoom In the picture and are pretty useless while gaming. Normal 2 slightly stretches the sides of image, and I think Under is for Underscan. I am not the expert though so don't hate me if I'm wrong .

[alebove]

feel free to ask some specifics. Some things are just obvious though - the aspect ratio controls for example. I mean, what's the point in trying to explain them when you can simply try them and see the results live and on your own ?

I understand what you say, I wasn't necessarily referring to the aspect ratio/zoom (probably it came across like that because of the message I quoted), it's more that the wiki doesn't seem to cover all the options available in the Xmini menu so I was looking for a short description of its various functions. I don't hide that there are a lot of things that are new to me so it takes longer to understand all the terminology etc.
I really appreciate all the work that you and the rest of this community have done, so apologies if my message came across like "there isn't enough information in this thread" (I wouldn't even know about the Xmini if it wasn't for you guys!)

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time to play around with the Xmini so I was being a bit lazy and ask for a summary

Cheers!

[Shining]

An option to force full RGB would be nice. Setting the Mini to output "RGB" results in a color mismatch and a limited range picture on my TV. As of now i have to use the "AUTO/YUV" setting on the Mini. I also would like to have them profiles.

Wait what..
The Mini already does send 'RGB full' whenever it's outputting RGB, regardless of the display (HDTV, PC monitor etc..).

Sadly, that does not work on my TV (Toshiba LED). When doing so, my TV is reporting "limited range" and the colors look way off even when setting the TV itself to limited or full range. YUV is the only solution for me. This is only a problem with the Mini tho. PC, PS4 etc all send a correct full range picture to my TV.

[Fudoh]

As far as I can tell the X1 displays the source's native resolution. Meaning 240p will look very small on a 1080p TV

not quite. The scaling refers to the resolution available to the Marvell processor, so it never sees 240p, but 480p coming from the FPGA linedoubler up front. In other words: X1 displays 480p inside a 720p or 1080p output. X2 displays a 960p inside of a 1080p output.

[MMJuno]

The LB modes just Zoom In the picture and are pretty useless while gaming.

In general, yes.

They are useful if you connect a PSP to the TV though.

[aoiddr]

I've got my supergun wired up to my XRGB-mini Framemeister via the front RGB minidin connection. I'm trying to get the scanlines to look right, but having a problem where I'll have 6 normal scanlines and then 2 that seem to be darker and stand out in a distracting way.

I have my XRGB-mini set on "720p" and "Picture."
V WIDTH = 32
SCAN_A = 90 (80 looks too dark to me)

I can't get it to let me change SCAN_B_EVEN or SCAN_B_ODD, so those are the default.

Thoughts?

[alebove]

I've got my supergun wired up to my XRGB-mini Framemeister via the front RGB minidin connection. I'm trying to get the scanlines to look right, but having a problem where I'll have 6 normal scanlines and then 2 that seem to be darker and stand out in a distracting way.

I have my XRGB-mini set on "720p" and "Picture."
V WIDTH = 32
SCAN_A = 90 (80 looks too dark to me)

I can't get it to let me change SCAN_B_EVEN or SCAN_B_ODD, so those are the default.

Thoughts?

As far as I know the SCAN_B options are only available if you choose to output in 1080p.
If you have 720p then you should be able to use SCAN_A and that will give you the best scanlines result.

Your pics look a bit odd indeed, so far I've only been able to test my saturn and 720p + SCAN_A looks good (image mode GAME 2).

[RGB32E]

As far as I know the SCAN_B options are only available if you choose to output in 1080p.

This is generally the case. However, if you use Zoom with a level of 90 in 1080p, SCAN_B is disabled, and SCAN_A is enabled. Zoom 90 provides even scanlines in 1080p, but are typically considered too thin by scanline fans. In either case (1080p/720p), the end result doesn't really look like a CRT since the scanlines are always fixed size, unlike a CRT.

[TheShadowRunner]

An option to force full RGB would be nice. Setting the Mini to output "RGB" results in a color mismatch and a limited range picture on my TV. As of now i have to use the "AUTO/YUV" setting on the Mini. I also would like to have them profiles.

Wait what..
The Mini already does send 'RGB full' whenever it's outputting RGB, regardless of the display (HDTV, PC monitor etc..).

Sadly, that does not work on my TV (Toshiba LED). When doing so, my TV is reporting "limited range" and the colors look way off even when setting the TV itself to limited or full range. YUV is the only solution for me. This is only a problem with the Mini tho. PC, PS4 etc all send a correct full range picture to my TV.

This is super strange indeed. Could you precise what you mean by "colors are way off"?
Do you see black appear as gray? That would indicate a source sending RGB limited and the display expecting RGB full.

But from my tests with the Mini, it always outputs "RGB full". When connecting it to a monitor expecting RGB full, the picture is correct. When connecting it to an old HDTV that expects RGB limited, the blacks are burnt (gray appears as black).

I suppose of course you are using HDMI connection, what is your source console and Mini firmware version?

[alebove]

As far as I know the SCAN_B options are only available if you choose to output in 1080p.

This is generally the case. However, if you use Zoom with a level of 90 in 1080p, SCAN_B is disabled, and SCAN_A is enabled. Zoom 90 provides even scanlines in 1080p, but are typically considered too thin by scanline fans. In either case (1080p/720p), the end result doesn't really look like a CRT since the scanlines are always fixed size, unlike a CRT.

Didn't know this, I'll try when I hbe the chance, thanks.
I'm quite happy with the scanlines in 720p at the moment - still thinking of goin also for a PVM or BVM at some point but right now I can't justify it and the new house is still a bit messy so don't have any room for that

[aoiddr]

Update: I changed the output resolution on the XRGB-mini to 480p and the scanline issue cleared itself right up.

The problem is still there if I switch to 720p, but given I'm sitting like 2~3 feet away from this LCD screen and the difference between 480p and 720p is negligible with scanlines and the other settings, I'm prone to leave it put as it looks just about perfect.

[Caprica Orange]

Hi guys, I need some help on a weird case. I checked this thread for some time but I couldn't find an anser. Upscale me if I didn't check it thouroughly enough....

I got my mini about a month ago and am very happy with it. I got the following working via a PAL wired RGB to XRGB lead with sync stripper (from retrogamingcables):

Super Famicom (using a PAL RGB GC cable)
Gamecube (PAL system using the same PAL RGB cable)
Mega Drive (PAL 50/60hz modded with RGB cable)

My PS2 only works with component on the mini (PAL and JP console). I bought an original Sony brand RGB cable but somehow it doesn't work.
Sound works, but no_input on the mini. Fiddling with the sync got me a green screen (probably due to the component settings) that flips every 2 seconds. Unplayable.

About the same for my modded PAL XBOX original. I bought an original MS RGB cable just for the mini, only to find out it has the same issues as the PS2 has with its RGB cable. Only difference is that fiddling with the sync does not do anything at all.... Sound OK, no_input on screen.

I REALLY like to use these cables, anyone have any idea what's going on?

Thanks in advance.

[Fudoh]

Simply put a switch on that sync stripper IC. Both PS2 and XBox will definitely work without it.

That's a problem with the power source required for that IC. An an alternative you can power the IC externally.

[Caprica Orange]

Simply put a switch on that sync stripper IC. Both PS2 and XBox will definitely work without it.

That's a problem with the power source required for that IC. An an alternative you can power the IC externally.

Hi Fudoh, many thanks for your reply.
I'm a complete newbie regarding soldering, adding switches etc. (I did a messy MD 50/60hz switch myself, the only thing good was that it worked....)

If I'd buy a cable from retrogamingcables without the sync stripper, would that work?

[Fudoh]

(most) definitely. Just putting it like this since I never had the original MS RGB cable and I have no idea how they wired they grounds....

[Caprica Orange]

Excellent, thanks Fudoh. I'll buy one and let the outcome know.

[Shining]

This is super strange indeed. Could you precise what you mean by "colors are way off"?
Do you see black appear as gray? That would indicate a source sending RGB limited and the display expecting RGB full.

But from my tests with the Mini, it always outputs "RGB full". When connecting it to a monitor expecting RGB full, the picture is correct. When connecting it to an old HDTV that expects RGB limited, the blacks are burnt (gray appears as black).

I suppose of course you are using HDMI connection, what is your source console and Mini firmware version?

Yes, HDMI connection and firmware 1.11. What i mean is that some colors become oversaturated and blacks becomes crushed. Here's an example from SMW, look att the missing green color gradients of this bush tree when the Mini is set to output RGB vs YUV:


Mini set to output RGB and the TV to LIMITED (TV is reporting a limited range image) = oversaturated colors


Mini set to output RGB and the TV to FULL (TV is still reporting a limited range image)= Slightly washed out colors but green is still oversaturated


Mini set to output YUV = correct colors

[blizzz]

My TV also detects the signals as limited range, even though it should be full range. But I get good colors that way with RGB output as long as I leave the A/D level at 128. I also checked the grey ramp and it's fine, so I'll just leave it like that.

Shining, did you increase the A/D level? That would explain the missing shade of green.

[TheShadowRunner]

Yes, HDMI connection and firmware 1.11. What i mean is that some colors become oversaturated and blacks becomes crushed. Here's an example from SMW, look att the missing green color gradients of this bush tree when the Mini is set to output RGB vs YUV:


Mini set to output RGB and the TV to LIMITED (TV is reporting a limited range image) = oversaturated colors


Mini set to output RGB and the TV to FULL (TV is still reporting a limited range image)= Slightly washed out colors but green is still oversaturated


Mini set to output YUV = correct colors

I'm baffled, here's what I get on my side:



and



I tried my best to take pictures but no matter what I do (macro/no macro/ AutoAFL or not) the pics are way off versus reality.
In any case I do see the 3 shades of green with both RGB & YUV.
I'm not sure this is a rgb limited versus full problem.. more like the saturation (indeed) presets being different between RGB and YUV inputs on your TV ?

Edit: Using all default settings on the Mini, A/D level at 128.

[Fudoh]

@Shining: seems really weird indeed. You're sure that you have the A/D setting somewhere around its standard level ?

[Shining]

A/D level is always set between 126-128 depending on the game, 126 in this case. I'm quite positive the issue is with my TV being unable to display a correct limited RGB range picture. I get the exact same issue with the Wii U (limited range only console). Oversaturation and colors being displayed in a wrong shade. In both these cases, the TV is also reporting a limited range picture. Of course i always set the TV itself manually to the corresponding setting just to make sure (FULL or LIMITED).

However, with the PS3, PS4 and PC i get a correct FULL RGB picture (that's what the TV is reporting as well as my own eyes) and everything looks great. Funny thing is, on the Mini, if i switch over to DVI mode and 1280*1024 i do get a FULL RGB picture (which the TV is also reporting). So there is definitely some HDMI handshake/mismatch issue or whatever it's called going on here. Therefore i would like a setting to force FULL RGB on the Mini