XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Windfish]

Windfish, try to bypass the SCART switch and connect the consoles to the mini directly.
If you experience drop-outs with PS1/2 and original Sony scart cable, it's a known issue, it needs to be modified to work with the Framemeister correctly.
If your set up/consoles are different, please specify which system, connected how, outputting what, etc..

I bypassed the switch and connected the Genesis directly to the Framemeister via the SCART adapter without the built-in sync-stripper. The stuttering and picture blanking issues are gone. The picture is still pink, though. The cables I am using for the Genesis are these.

I forgot to mention again that I have two SCART switches, and the issues persisted in both. I also forgot to mention that I live in the US, and I am using a step-up converter to power these switches.

[TheShadowRunner]

I bypassed the switch and connected the Genesis directly to the Framemeister via the SCART adapter without the built-in sync-stripper. The stuttering and picture blanking issues are gone. The picture is still pink, though. The cables I am using for the Genesis are these.

I forgot to mention again that I have two SCART switches, and the issues persisted in both. I also forgot to mention that I live in the US, and I am using a step-up converter to power these switches.

Ok, first let's focus on the issue without SWITCH, ie the pink screen.
Have you tested the MD with a standard composite cable to a tv/hdtv (bypassing the Miini) to check if the MD itself is OK?
Ideally we want to make sure the MD is alright before considering a RGB cable issue.
If yes (MD is alright), then the cable might be at fault... I've ordered once from retrogamingcables.co.uk, it was both a waste of time and money (came a month late and poorly wired, not all grounds, etc..), never again.
What I can recommend eyes-closed is http://stores.ebay.com/Retro-Accessories though.
Anyway, test your MD with a standard composite cable first..

[Windfish]

Thank you for your reply! I will have to check those things when I am back home!

[TheShadowRunner]

Since connecting the PS2 to the Mini via RGB, I've felt the image was a bit on the dark side.
First I was suspecting it was due to using Luma for sync instead of Composite sync but it turns out that was a wrong assumption.
I may just suffer from the good old "burnt blacks" issue.

To confirm it, I used the SMPTE test pattern from the game Strider 2.
Here are the results.

PS2 direct to HDTV using RGB/Scart:
(the colors are way off because of the camera)


PS2 connected to Mini using RGB/Scart:


I'm using all default settings on the Mini, except "H_SCALER" to 6, "V_SCALER" to 5 and "Picture Mode" to "NATURAL" as instructed in the Wiki.

Isn't the image from a PS2 via RGB on the Mini supposed to be optimal with the default settings..?
It seems not, so I guess I need to tweak "COLOR_SET" feature a little bit?
How would I go about doing this correctly? Should I rather tweak the "BRIGHTNESS" setting or the "GAMMA" setting?
Any input is very welcome!

[Thomago]

You shouldn't tweak "BRIGHTNESS" as well as "GAMMA" - the default settings are optimal (at least for every RGB source I encountered so far).
What you need to change is "A/D LEVEL" (you find that in the "SPECIAL" menu).

A software-independent tip for finding the optimum setting: Go into the PS2 memory card menu and increase "A/D LEVEL" as much as needed for the center of the white shine that highlights the currently selected savegame to appear pure white (don't increase it any further, otherwise details in bright areas will get lost).

Also, as long as you can tolerate the added artificial noise you should use "MOVIE" instead of "NATURAL" cause "NATURAL" messes up certain colors (especially greens, if I remember correctly). Also "MOVIE" does an extremely nice job at hiding banding artifacts like the ones seen in the grey gradient of the PS2 memory card menu.

[TheShadowRunner]

You shouldn't tweak "BRIGHTNESS" as well as "GAMMA" - the default settings are optimal (at least for every RGB source I encountered so far).
What you need to change is "A/D LEVEL" (you find that in the "SPECIAL" menu).
A software-independent tip for finding the optimum setting: Go into the PS2 memory card menu and increase "A/D LEVEL" as much as needed for the center of the white shine that highlights the currently selected savegame to appear pure white (don't increase it any further, otherwise details in bright areas will get lost).

Thanks for your reply.
Finding the optimum setting via PS2 Memory Card "white shine" on selected save didn't help me much to be honest, way too imprecise and it already looked super white with the default value of 128 for "A/D LEVEL".
So I fired up Strider 2 again and checked different values for "A/D LEVEL".
From 128 to 160, almost no changes, right chip pludge still invisible.
After tweaking a little, I find a value of 180 to show the pludge correctly.
Do you have a value around this on your side for PS2 connected to Mini via RGB?

Also, as long as you can tolerate the added artificial noise you should use "MOVIE" instead of "NATURAL" cause "NATURAL" messes up certain colors (especially greens, if I remember correctly). Also "MOVIE" does an extremely nice job at hiding banding artifacts like the ones seen in the grey gradient of the PS2 memory card menu.

Great tip, indeed "MOVIE" has a slightly different color tone, it removes the greenish tint "NATURAL" displays on the grey gradiant / right side of the PS2 MC menu, it looks better for sure!

Edit: arg, after testing more games/menus outside of Strider2, it does look too bright with A/D at 180. There must be something else going on with PS2 via RGB..

[austin532]

I also tried adjusting the A/D level using Strider 2. The problem I have though is that you can't have the best of both worlds. After adjusting the A/D level on the Strider 2 option screen (which is in 480i) with scanlines off, I find that enabling them makes the image a little on the dark side. However after adjusting the A/D level with scanlines on, I find the image too bright with scanlines off. So it's a "pick your poison" situation.

[TheShadowRunner]

austin532, what values for A/D LEVEL are we talking about here?
Do you also find the PS2 too dark with the default value of 128 (pluge completely hidden in Strider2)?

[austin532]

Anything below 140 seems too dark and anything above 170 seems too bright. I currently have it set to 162 but your mileage may vary as each display is different.

128 is definitely way too dark for my tastes but again each display is different. What exactly do you mean by pludge?

As for trying to get pure white with the white Memory Card orb in the PS2 menu, I don't think that's even possible unless the PS2 supports (0-255) Full Range RGB is it?

[TheShadowRunner]

Anything below 140 seems too dark and anything above 170 seems too bright. I currently have it set to 162 but your mileage may vary as each display is different.

128 is definitely way too dark for my tastes but again each display is different. What exactly do you mean by pludge?

Thanks for the details, I'm finding the same acceptable values on my setup with the default/128 being definitely too dark.
The pluge is the grey bar visible on this pic:

It should be visible for proper luminosity but for some reason the Mini with default settings has it hidden with PS2.

As for trying to get pure white with the white Memory Card orb in the PS2 menu, I don't think that's even possible unless the PS2 supports (0-255) Full Range RGB is it?

I have no clue what the PS2 actually outputs..
All I can confirm is that using the same Mini's RGB input and default settings, the SFC shows the pluge in Artemio's 240p test suite perfectly. (He might develop a PS2 version of the suite too btw!)

[austin532]

The default settings are not optimal IMO. Even at 128 the pulge is still barley visible on my TV. Maybe your settings are wrong? Brightness should be at 20, Gamma at 10, and Black at 0.

[Thomago]

With two SCART selectors, a Sync Strike and an Extron VGA interface chained I found an A/D-LEVEL of 153 to be optimal. Directly connecting the PS2 to the Mini will most likely result in an optimum that's a bit lower. That being said - my Super Nintendo is much brighter than than my PS2; if I remember correctly an A/D-LEVEL of about 147 is fine there (calibrated via the White Land course in F-Zero - the last segment of "fogging" next to the horizion should be pure white).

I have the advantage of sporting a measly TN-display: Pure white is clearly discernible as it is nearly inverted if I look at it at an angle. This makes finding the right A/D-LEVEL very easy
By the way you should turn on PICTURE mode for calibration since the artificial noise added in MOVIE mode beclouds pure white and pure dark a little bit.

[TheShadowRunner]

The default settings are not optimal IMO. Even at 128 the pulge is still barley visible on my TV. Maybe your settings are wrong? Brightness should be at 20, Gamma at 10, and Black at 0.

Wait are you still talking about PS2 here or SFC?
For PS2 as we were saying the default settings are definitely off, the pluge totally invisible at 128 (and up to around 160).
(yes my settings are correct with same values as yours).
For SFC the default settings are just right versus the 240p suite / SMPTE test pattern.

With two SCART selectors, a Sync Strike and an Extron VGA interface chained I found an A/D-LEVEL of 153 to be optimal. Directly connecting the PS2 to the Mini will most likely result in an optimum that's a bit lower. That being said - my Super Nintendo is much brighter than than my PS2; if I remember correctly an A/D-LEVEL of about 147 is fine there (calibrated via the White Land course in F-Zero - the last segment of "fogging" next to the horizion should be pure white).

So with your setup (scart selector - sync strike - extron - mini), you're saying you see the pluge on Strider 2 SMPTE test pattern with A/D set to 153?
This value is surprising to me after yesterday's testing, but actually the signal must be so much altered by your chain that such a difference isn't so surprising..

I have the advantage of sporting a measly TN-display: Pure white is clearly discernible as it is nearly inverted if I look at it at an angle. This makes finding the right A/D-LEVEL very easy
By the way you should turn on PICTURE mode for calibration since the artificial noise added in MOVIE mode beclouds pure white and pure dark a little bit.

TBH, I'd rather rely on Strider 2 SMPTE test pattern, it doesn't require a specific display or any mumbo jumbo/tricks to set right. Either you barely see the pluge and luminosity is set right or you don't and it's wrong, easy.

At this point I can't wait to hear what Artemio's findings are on the PS2's RGB level.. I sense there is either a double compression or expansion going on when directly connecting the PS2 to Mini via RGB, something's not right.
Like the Mini is expecting RGB full 0-255 but the PS2 is outputting RGB limited 16-235...

[Thomago]

So with your setup (scart selector - sync strike - extron - mini), you're saying you see the pluge on Strider 2 SMPTE test pattern with A/D set to 153?

I see no pluge (whatever that is) cause I don't own Strider 2 and therefore have no access to its SMPTE test pattern.

TBH, I'd rather rely on Strider 2 SMPTE test pattern, it doesn't require a specific display or any mumbo jumbo/tricks to set right.

Obviously capturing the Framemeister's signal and analyzing its levels would be more correct, but the TN panel method is as good as it gets if you don't have access to an HDMI capture solution.

[Windfish]

I have been very busy with school, so I have not been able to post my progress in resolving the issues with my setup. I have tested numerous other connections, with varying results. I am going to do more tests before I post another update.

[austin532]

The problem with the Strider 2 SMPTE test pattern is that it is not meant to be used for professional calibration. Plus being that it's on a compressed CD the picture quality is probably slightly off compared to a raw image. That being said though the PS2 image is definitely darker at the default settings. I wonder if the same Pluge problem exists with a PS1?

I've been eagerly waiting for Artemio to develop a PS1/PS2 suite test

[TheShadowRunner]

The problem with the Strider 2 SMPTE test pattern is that it is not meant to be used for professional calibration. Plus being that it's on a compressed CD the picture quality is probably slightly off compared to a raw image.

Sure but it does give a pretty good idea of where we stand: default Mini settings definitely off [for PS2/RGB].

That being said though the PS2 image is definitely darker at the default settings. I wonder if the same Pluge problem exists with a PS1?

I'm currently waiting for a replacement power block for PS1 so can't test atm, it'll be an interesting test for sure.

I've been eagerly waiting for Artemio to develop a PS1/PS2 suite test

Yep same here

[trumpet205]

How well do XRGB-Mini handles PSP TV out and PS2 Component?

For PS2 I'm thinking about sticking with Component since I heard RGB requires more complicated setup.

[TheShadowRunner]

After more testing... hrrmm well, I think I found a big Framemeister bug.

austin532 as you have a very similar PS2 setup as mine and Strider2, if you have 5 minutes I would love to know if you can reproduce..

1. Put back the default setting on the Mini for A/D_LEVEL : 128, then switch-on the Mini, then power on the PS2 with Strider 2 in it.
2. Wait for Strider2 to load and go to "Options" > "Adjust screen".
3. Verify that the pluge is hidden /completely black.
4. Put the Framemeister in standby..!!
5. Re-power on the framemeister..
6. The pluge is now visible / luminosity is correct!

What the f*ck is going on here... :S
I can reproduce it 100% of the time, again this is for PS2 connected to Mini via RGB.
Using latest fw 1.11eng.

Holy crap, after even more testing, I think i found the exact issue.
It's a HDMI handshaking problem!
If instead of points 4. & 5. above you just disconnect the HDMI-out cable on the Mini and reconnect it, the luminosity becomes correct again!

And this is the case everywhere, even in the PS2 browser / Memory card screen the difference will jump at your eyes.

[Thomago]

Restarting the Framemeister (maybe several times) while the to-be-calibrated source is powered up and connected also helps; setting up A/D-LEVEL beforehand won't get you any reproducible results.

And I thought I was the only one to notice stuff like that

[TheShadowRunner]

Restarting the Framemeister (maybe several times) while the to-be-calibrated source is powered up and connected also helps; setting up A/D-LEVEL beforehand won't get you any reproducible results.

And I thought I was the only one to notice stuff like that :)

Hmm I don't think that's it.
For this case with PS2 via RGB, putting the Mini in-and-out of standby or disconnecting HDMI-out plug forces a new HDMI handshake.
In SPECIAL > FULL STATUS, 2nd page, COLOR, it's easy to see what's going on.
By default / first power-on, the Mini outputs COLOR: RGB.
After the standby or disconnect/reconnect HDMI-out plug, the Mini outputs: COLOR: YCBCR...

I guess, since YCBCR works in the 16-235 color range, that's why the luminosity then looks right (which would indicate that the PS2 does output RGB limited but the Mini treats it as full, hence the burnt blacks.)

Somethings very strange is going on, can you reproduce this on your side Thomago ^ ?

Edit: quick steps to reproduce
1. Set A/D_LEVEL back at 128.
2. Start PS2, go to Browser, Memory card screen.
3. Notice how the luminosity is
4. Unplug HDMI-out plug from the Mini and reconnect it. (or put Mini in standby then back on)
5. Notice the luminosity change!

[Fudoh]

By default / first power-on, the Mini outputs COLOR: RGB.
After the standby or disconnect/reconnect HDMI-out plug, the Mini outputs: COLOR: YCBCR...

even with forced RGB output ?

In general the problem is nothing new. It's the same that has been reported and confirmed very early on whenever you switch between 240p and 480i input.

[Thomago]

I tried to, but I couldn't reproduce it - in fact I couldn't even reproduce what I posted; luminosity was locked at a level where AD-LEVEL = 142 was perfect (instead of 153).

Then I reset the Framemeister... still the same. Than I powered off my PS2, powered it back on and *bam*, AD-LEVEL = 153 is perfect again.

I hate this

EDIT: Needlessly to say what I just described isn't reproducible

[TheShadowRunner]

By default / first power-on, the Mini outputs COLOR: RGB.
After the standby or disconnect/reconnect HDMI-out plug, the Mini outputs: COLOR: YCBCR...

even with forced RGB output ?

No, with OPTIONS > OUTPUT_COLOR > AUTO, but regardless, it shows 2 things:
1. The Mini's RGB (full) output isn't suited for the PS2 connected via RGB.
2. AUTO detection is broken :S

In general the problem is nothing new. It's the same that has been reported and confirmed very early on whenever you switch between 240p and 480i input.

In this case, it's always 480i coming from the PS2...
So it was known that forcing a HDMI handshake caused the mini to change its COLOR output type?

I tried to, but I couldn't reproduce it - in fact I couldn't even reproduce what I posted; luminosity was locked at a level where AD-LEVEL = 142 was perfect (instead of 153).

Then I reset the Framemeister... still the same. Than I powered off my PS2, powered it back on and *bam*, AD-LEVEL = 153 is perfect again.

I hate this :roll:

EDIT: Needlessly to say what I just described isn't reproducible :|

Ah, I forgot the whole chain you use, it must change the signal to such an extent that you couldn't possibly reproduce, my bad. The test was of course PS2 directly connected to Mini via RGB.

[Fudoh]

2. AUTO detection is broken

it probably is, yes. On the other hand, do you know if the luminance range on a PS2 480i signal isn't actually the same as on a 480i component signal ?

The whole problem isn't related to the PS2, or the use of component versus RGB. It's a range conversion issue with 480i signals. Just saying....

What happens when you force RGB output through HDMI instead ? Using AUTO only works on very few (and very capable) displays and mine certainly don't belong to that category.

[TheShadowRunner]

2. AUTO detection is broken

it probably is, yes. On the other hand, do you know if the luminance range on a PS2 480i signal isn't actually the same as on a 480i component signal ?

Yes exactly, I think we're touching the issue precisely, it must be the same.
Ie, PS2 @480i/RGB output range must be 16-235, same as when PS2 outputs 480i/YCBCR.

The whole problem isn't related to the PS2, or the use of component versus RGB. It's a range conversion issue with 480i signals. Just saying....

Yes, I believe so too.

What happens when you force RGB output through HDMI instead ? Using AUTO only works on very few (and very capable) displays and mine certainly don't belong to that category.

If I force RGB, it's always RGB, forcing HDMI-handshake doesn't change anything (doesn't "fall back" on YCBCR).
Of course in this case the PS2 image is too dark because of burnt blacks/ wrong input color space assumed by the Mini.

What is strange though is the same happens with SFC (240p) via RGB to the Mini.
At first the output is RGB, if I force a HDMI-handshake, output becomes YCBCR!
Damn that's buggy lol..

[Thomago]

I just noticed that switching between HDMI and DVI output brings about a change in luminosity; HDMI was darker than DVI. So I changed the HDMI black level of my monitor from "dark" to "normal" and voilá - HDMI an DVI output have the same luminosity (AD-LEVEL = 153 for both).

Would be great if that solved my problem for good and helps you

[TheShadowRunner]

I just noticed that switching between HDMI and DVI output brings about a change in luminosity; HDMI was darker than DVI. So I changed the HDMI black level of my monitor from "dark" to "normal" and voilá - HDMI an DVI output have the same luminosity (AD-LEVEL = 153 for both).

Would be great if that solved my problem for good and helps you

Hehe thanks.
But what you are doing effectively is masking the problem (by raising luminosity).
To really solve the issue, the Mini's RGB input color space detection should be fixed, it shouldn't assume RGB full for everything hooked to it.
All this are (strong) assumptions, but still assumptions. If Artemio decides to look at the PS2 in depth, I'm sure we'll have the final word on this.
Sadly, the ball will be in Micomsoft's hands to solve the issue automatically or propose a manual option to toggle the RGB's input color space.

[Thomago]

Sadly, the ball will be in Micomsoft's hands to solve the issue automatically or propose a manual option to toggle the RGB's input color space.

Sometimes I wish the Mini's users would - respectively could - take things into their hands and fix the firmware themselves.

[TheShadowRunner]

Sadly, the ball will be in Micomsoft's hands to solve the issue automatically or propose a manual option to toggle the RGB's input color space.

Sometimes I wish the Mini's users would - respectively could - take things into their hands and fix the firmware themselves.

Yes definitely, or if at least there was an official english support chanel to report issues, that would majorly help.
If Artemio confirms those findings, I'll translate the steps to reproduce the bug in japanese and forward it to Jacob (Solaris), unless Fudoh already did (?)

Edit:
What I believe is going on:
The PS2 outputs RGB in limited range -> the mini expects full range so doesn't expand the values to 0-255, it thinks the input is already 0-255. Because of this image is too dark/burnt blacks.
Because of the bug making the Mini output YCBCR when forcing a HDMI handshake, the Mini compresses the f*cked PS2 signal back to 16-235, so in the end the luminosity looks OK with YCBCR.
Of course the more conversion the worst for image quality, we are losing major details everywhere even if the luminosity ends up proper with YCBCR.
(I wrote this here because I'm eventually going to forget haha)
Fudoh, do you think this is what's going on too?