XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

@jimbobiii:

That said, the RGB connection is NOT a scart connection? (same wires but different locations?)

right, it's JP21. Same connector, different pinout.

SNES, Genesis, Saturn are all RGB out of the box.
NES is composite only, can be modded for RGB. Same with Turbo Duo.
N64 is s-video out of the box, can be modded to RGB.

honestly, if I go all European cables or all NTSC doesn't really matter

doesn't matter, but you need a matching adapter. If you want to use the JP21 - MiniDin8 adapter included with the Mini you also need a JP21 to EU-SCART adapter.

[ekek2009]

you don't need a transcoder. http://www.ebay.com/itm/140910129336

Thanks so much for your help! And I already have a BNC breakout cable; too easy.

[jimbobiii]

@jimbobiii:

That said, the RGB connection is NOT a scart connection? (same wires but different locations?)

right, it's JP21. Same connector, different pinout.

SNES, Genesis, Saturn are all RGB out of the box.
NES is composite only, can be modded for RGB. Same with Turbo Duo.
N64 is s-video out of the box, can be modded to RGB.

honestly, if I go all European cables or all NTSC doesn't really matter

doesn't matter, but you need a matching adapter. If you want to use the JP21 - MiniDin8 adapter included with the Mini you also need a JP21 to EU-SCART adapter.

Got it. So either use the adapter that comes with it and get JP21 cables, or just grab the SCART adapter from retro_console_accessories on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-XRGB- ... 257a1a92ce)

and then buy the SNES/Genesis 2/Saturn SCART adapters for NTSC consoles and it's all good?

thanks again for the confirmation. I think I've got it worked out, just want to be sure

[darcagn]

I just ordered everything I need to mod my DC VGA box for the XRGB-mini. I'll be adding a 15/31KHz switch, a sync combiner circuit, and a DIN8 connector, which will carry R/G/B/c-sync/L-audio/R-audio/5V/Ground. I'll let you all know how it goes and post pictures when I'm done.

[Fudoh]

@ekek2009: but don't forget that you need a matching adapter cable. The Extron box combines the H/V sync signals into C-Sync, but you still need to get the signal into the Mini, so you need a BNC to MiniDin8 for a direct connect or a BNC to Scart/JP21 cable to use with your existing adapter cable. You might also want to get audio in there.

[synth79]

@jimbobiii:

That said, the RGB connection is NOT a scart connection? (same wires but different locations?)

right, it's JP21. Same connector, different pinout.

SNES, Genesis, Saturn are all RGB out of the box.
NES is composite only, can be modded for RGB. Same with Turbo Duo.
N64 is s-video out of the box, can be modded to RGB.

honestly, if I go all European cables or all NTSC doesn't really matter

doesn't matter, but you need a matching adapter. If you want to use the JP21 - MiniDin8 adapter included with the Mini you also need a JP21 to EU-SCART adapter.

Got it. So either use the adapter that comes with it and get JP21 cables, or just grab the SCART adapter from retro_console_accessories on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-XRGB- ... 257a1a92ce)

and then buy the SNES/Genesis 2/Saturn SCART adapters for NTSC consoles and it's all good?

thanks again for the confirmation. I think I've got it worked out, just want to be sure

Yes you have it right. NTSC wired scart cables. Yes by saying NTSC Scart, that is by default a hybrid of NTSC wiring for NTSC consoles going to a European Scart TV type connector. In most cases these cables will work with Japanese consoles on European TV's too but not always.

I know it's confusing but yes you have the thinking right.

You also get what I used most of my teen years (I was born in the UK) which is known simply as EURO scart. This is what you don't want as it intended for PAL consoles and won't work with NTSC consoles. (There is one exception to this that I know of being the pal gamecube scart working with NTSC SNES). You probably won't damage anything by using EURO Scart cables with NTSC consoles, they just won't work.

So make sure and always buy NTSC Scart.


Oh and what you really really don't want is JP21 / RGB21 because then instead of just not working, you will destroy something as an extra bonus.

For this reason it makes extreme sense to choose either SCART or JP21 and stick to it forever and ever. Remember to use your adapter that you went and bought seperately and not the Japanese one that came with it. I've left my Japanese one in the Frame Meisters box where it will stay the rest of it's natural life. ;D

In brief:

For American consoles, Always buy NTSC American wired for Euro Scart cables. They will work with American consoles, and they will also work with most Japanese consoles too....(but always check first anyway)

Watch out for sellers on ebay selling something worded wrongly. You will see JP21 referred to as Japanese Scart by a japanese seller. But you will also see a cable for getting a japanese console to work in the UK, labelled as Japanese Scart. So be careful basically. IN GENERAL: if you buy your scart cables from a UK or European seller, you will be fine using it with your Euro to Micomsoft din.



Hope this helps! It's annoying how it's so easy to get confused I know.

[BuckoA51]

There is one exception to this that I know of being the pal gamecube scart working with NTSC SNES

If it's a standard SCART using composite video for sync then Sega Megadrive, Sega Master System, Jaguar, Dreamcast, Playstation 1,2,3 and Xbox are all the same for both PAL and NTSC. On the Saturn some sellers wire the cables using voltage from pin 1, which works on PAL but on NTSC that's composite sync.

If you want a raw sync/pure composite sync/whatever you want to call it cable then you need to remember PAL versions of the SNES and Saturn for instance don't output csync. If you use a csync/raw sync/pure sync whatever cable with a PAL Saturn you can actually fry your TV because you feed in +12 volts where it's expecting sync.

Nintendo just seem to like to complicate things further with differences between the RGB encoders on PAL and NTSC machines.

See http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... escart.htm

[synth79]

Another reason not to buy PAL console IMHO. ;D

[synth79]

There is one exception to this that I know of being the pal gamecube scart working with NTSC SNES

If it's a standard SCART using composite video for sync then Sega Megadrive, Sega Master System, Jaguar, Dreamcast, Playstation 1,2,3 and Xbox are all the same for both PAL and NTSC. On the Saturn some sellers wire the cables using voltage from pin 1, which works on PAL but on NTSC that's composite sync.

If you want a raw sync/pure composite sync/whatever you want to call it cable then you need to remember PAL versions of the SNES and Saturn for instance don't output csync. If you use a csync/raw sync/pure sync whatever cable with a PAL Saturn you can actually fry your TV because you feed in +12 volts where it's expecting sync.

Nintendo just seem to like to complicate things further with differences between the RGB encoders on PAL and NTSC machines.

See http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... escart.htm

The cable I bought for my Saturn, the seller says it was tested on UK and Japanese Saturn. Is it possible to have a cable that works for both *UK* and Jap?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RGB-Scart-AV- ... OC:GB:3160

It's not here yet, and neither is my Japanese Hi-Saturn. Won't be long though.

I read somewhere there is a difference between US (north american) and JAP Saturns.....not the same NTSC Scart will work....apparently...

But this seller is saying the cable will work with UK and JAP Saturns. Untested on US Saturn.



Just to confuse things more, this one says it will work on Japanese Saturns but not on UK or USA Saturns:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRUE-RGB-SCAR ... 27cf310e17

What is going on here? this is truly confusing.. surely for anybody? Is anyone not confused by this? LOL. Oh and that last one also says not for use with Scalers.

[Fudoh]

The cable I bought for my Saturn, the seller says it was tested on UK and Japanese Saturn. Is it possible to have a cable that works for both *UK* and Jap?

99% of all Saturn cables, including both the official japanese and the official european Sega RGB cables, work on BOTH, NTSC and PAL machines. They all use composite video for sync.

The difference between NTSC and PAL machines is that the PAL machines output +12V on the pin where composite sync is located on the NTSC machines, so if you get a cable which uses composite sync instead of composite video, it will ONLY work on NTSC machines.

Just to confuse things more, this one says it will work on Japanese Saturns but not on UK or USA Saturns:

plain wrong.

[synth79]

So, using a pal Saturn cable will work with any NTSC Saturn no problem with the Frame Meister via the Euro to 8pin din, or indeed a Euro TV?

[Fudoh]

Yes & Yes.

Nevertheless two possible hickups: one for the Mini: on some PAL Saturn cables GND is only wired to certain (non-standard) pins, so to work on the Mini, you have to make sure that the GND pins of the RGB cable and those on the Din adapter actually connect. And one for TV sets: by using a PAL RGB cable on a NTSC machine you get only about 1V on the pin which should deliver 12V. This can cause switching problems on the TV. If the TV set can be manually set to it's RGB input, that's no problem whatsoever.

[synth79]

Right, I got it. Thanks again Fellas. Trust there to be a couple of consoles that like to be different. That's why I always check first. I only ordered that cable because he said he tested it on UK and JAP Saturns so I felt quite sure it would be ok. Thankfully I didn't buy from the second link there, who was wrong about his cable. Perhaps he is trying to protect his customers somehow? But I guess he is actually just clouding the picture....

[synth79]

Yes & Yes.

Nevertheless two possible hickups: one for the Mini: on some PAL Saturn cables GND is only wired to certain (non-standard) pins, so to work on the Mini, you have to make sure that the GND pins of the RGB cable and those on the Din adapter actually connect. And one for TV sets: by using a PAL RGB cable on a NTSC machine you get only about 1V on the pin which should deliver 12V. This can cause switching problems on the TV. If the TV set can be manually set to it's RGB input, that's no problem whatsoever.

Ok, so say GND was non standard on the pal saturn scart cable, would that actually damage anything on the NTSC Saturn or the Mini?

Regardless I will be taking a closeup of my Saturn cable when it arrives so we can document it here. This is great info.

[Fudoh]

Ok, so say GND was non standard on the pal saturn scart cable, would that actually damage anything on the NTSC Saturn or the Mini?

you either get no picture or that "quarter-zoom" picture posted here before where just one corner of the picture is zoomed to full screen. No damages on either side, don't worry.

[synth79]

phew. thanks again.

I am looking forward to using the Saturn, I bought one second hand a few years ago with some PAL games. But this'll be the first NTSC one I've had.

Daytona Circuit Edition Japanese version will be really cool, I will definitely be taking pics of that. I remember how the PAL saturn looked on my Kuro without any scaler. It was via Scart and looked crisp, but without scanlines it was so jaggy and messy looking. That was with PAL Sega Rally, excellent game, but the graphics were a jaggy muddy gravely mess. The spray that comes up from the tyres looked terrible.

So I thought for the XRGB Mini with an NTSC saturn it'd be fitting to try out Daytona CE (J) instead....just aswell I looked up the Jap version, coz its supposed to run better/handle better than the US version. So many games on the Saturn seem to be better in their Japanese form and apparently some games DON'T run 100% glitch free with the 4M Action Replay carts. So I jumped on that Jap Saturn. Anyway... I will be taking pics of the Saturn for sure.

I am very impressed with the SNES and especially for an early model. Unless someones changed the case for it! I've got Kirby 8 games in 1 running just now on it, and it looks absolutely amazing. Very colourful game.
The mini handles the fast action with no problems. There's no blurring or anything. Also tried Contra on it and that was great too, another game that would show any flaws, but it ran beautifully. I completely and utterly forget that it's just S-Video right now. I have never seen S-Video that looks this good. I mean, the colours I think will be the only difference I will be able to spot. But to be truthful, I love the colours on the SNES via this particular S-Video. The only thing is I do notice some "movement" in the signal on very rare occasions, like when the screen is all blue for instance, but that's only with a pirate cart with no shielding. On official carts I see no such movement and if you told me this was RGB I wouldn't doubt it. Actually Kirby has a blue screen there in the intro, and there is no unsolicited movement in that, so it must indeed be a shielding issue. Has anyone else honestly seen a snes look so good on s-video? There are absolutely no jail bars. I sincerely hope this snes never kicks the bucket because I don't want any of that vertical line stuff people mention. And there doesn't appear to be any shadow effect on text or anything.


Makes me want to try the N64 on the S-Video (not modded at all). Does anyone here use the mini with an n64? Does it do that annoying video switching/hdmi handshake thing often? or just sometimes?

I'm asking a lot of questions tonight eh... lol. Hopefully this is making for interesting reading.

[BuckoA51]

Does anyone here use the mini with an n64? Does it do that annoying video switching/hdmi handshake thing often? or just sometimes?

Depends on the game, I believe Resident Evil is quite prone to doing it since the inventory screen is in 480i but the game is in 240p. There are other titles with similar problems (Pinball Illusions on the Amiga, Micro Machines V3 on the PS1).

[Rymdkakor]

Those won't work on a PAL SNES. PAL GameCube RGB cables are the same as NTSC SNES RGB cables. To make those cables work, you have to remove the capacitors and put in 75ohm resistors in the RGB lines instead.

Hi again guys,

Since I last posted about my problems with my framemeister I've got all my consoles working except the one that was supposed to be the easiest one to set up, my beloved SNES.
As Fudoh pointed out the cable I was using with it was incorrectly wired so I needed to either do some soldering that went beyond the limits of my basic soldering skills, or get a new cable. I chose to get a new cable.
At the time the only place I could find that had Pal SNES Rgb-cables in stock was "adapter_man" on ebay, so I sent him a message where I explained in detail what kind of cable I needed, what I was going to use it for, what kind of cable I had that didn't work (I sent the pictures I posted here earlier) and I even copypasted what Fudoh said about the cables here.

Today after a long wait, I got my cable in the mail and tried it out thinking that this time it's GOT to work.
But it didn't. Same thing as before - clear crisp audio but just "no_input" on the screen.

Naturally I opened up the cable to see what was inside and found that it indeed looked different than the other cable I had but since I'm no electrician I can't say why this isn't working. Though the seller didn't seem to know what a framemeister was he seemed to know a bit about cables and was very helpful, he sent me an email regarding the cable before he sent it:

"Sorry, I wanted to do some more reading related to video converters, as I haven't made any SNES cables for these for some time.
There are several ways to make them and without yours to test it's never sure, so I went for switching signal on RGB pin (most boxes ignore but shouldn't do any harm if present), and normal brightness level correction on RGB. you can run this direct on an RGB SCART socket also it should work there too (to test or compare).
sorry about the wait!"


I took some pictures of the cable I got, please tell me that I can just move and resolder some of the wires to make it work?
EDIT: The cable works perfectly fine connected to the scart socked on my tv, probably the best picture I've ever got from a snes hooked up directly to the tv, but of course it's crap compared to what I should get from the framemeister.

[Zapf]

Does anyone here use the mini with an n64? Does it do that annoying video switching/hdmi handshake thing often? or just sometimes?

Depends on the game, I believe Resident Evil is quite prone to doing it since the inventory screen is in 480i but the game is in 240p. There are other titles with similar problems (Pinball Illusions on the Amiga, Micro Machines V3 on the PS1).

RE2 is impossible to play on the n64 if you have the ram pak installed instead of the jumper pak. almost every screen alternates between 480i and 240p, in addition to the inventory.

Has anyone figured out what they changed in 1.08 (and why it hasn't been released to everyone else)?

[shinjig]

Those won't work on a PAL SNES. PAL GameCube RGB cables are the same as NTSC SNES RGB cables. To make those cables work, you have to remove the capacitors and put in 75ohm resistors in the RGB lines instead.

Hi again guys,

Since I last posted about my problems with my framemeister I've got all my consoles working except the one that was supposed to be the easiest one to set up, my beloved SNES.
As Fudoh pointed out the cable I was using with it was incorrectly wired so I needed to either do some soldering that went beyond the limits of my basic soldering skills, or get a new cable. I chose to get a new cable.
At the time the only place I could find that had Pal SNES Rgb-cables in stock was "adapter_man" on ebay, so I sent him a message where I explained in detail what kind of cable I needed, what I was going to use it for, what kind of cable I had that didn't work (I sent the pictures I posted here earlier) and I even copypasted what Fudoh said about the cables here.

Today after a long wait, I got my cable in the mail and tried it out thinking that this time it's GOT to work.
But it didn't. Same thing as before - clear crisp audio but just "no_input" on the screen.

Naturally I opened up the cable to see what was inside and found that it indeed looked different than the other cable I had but since I'm no electrician I can't say why this isn't working. Though the seller didn't seem to know what a framemeister was he seemed to know a bit about cables and was very helpful, he sent me an email regarding the cable before he sent it:

"Sorry, I wanted to do some more reading related to video converters, as I haven't made any SNES cables for these for some time.
There are several ways to make them and without yours to test it's never sure, so I went for switching signal on RGB pin (most boxes ignore but shouldn't do any harm if present), and normal brightness level correction on RGB. you can run this direct on an RGB SCART socket also it should work there too (to test or compare).
sorry about the wait!"


I took some pictures of the cable I got, please tell me that I can just move and resolder some of the wires to make it work?
EDIT: The cable works perfectly fine connected to the scart socked on my tv, probably the best picture I've ever got from a snes hooked up directly to the tv, but of course it's crap compared to what I should get from the framemeister.

Dumb question but are you using an adapter cable to convert the euro21 scart to the jp21 scart? Try opening up the adapter and see which pins are wired were, its possible you might have a few wires that aren't going anywhere.

[Overkill]

Which values are you guys using for scanlines for 240p sources in picture mode? Is 80 fine or are you using stronger?

[Rymdkakor]

Dumb question but are you using an adapter cable to convert the euro21 scart to the jp21 scart? Try opening up the adapter and see which pins are wired were, its possible you might have a few wires that aren't going anywhere.

Yup I'm using an adapter, it works perfectly with my Ps1, I sent pictures of it as well to the guy who made the cable so one would think that he made the cable so they'd work together...see anything strange that others might have missed?

[Fudoh]

Your adapter cable uses a sync stripper. That can problems with a few systems / configurations.

[Rymdkakor]

Your adapter cable uses a sync stripper. That can problems with a few systems / configurations.

That worked, sort of! I connected the two yellow wires together (retro_gaming_cables told me that would disable the sync stripper) and now the SNES works, the problem is that the picture on both SNES and PS1 is purple/cyan-tinted now. What do I do?

EDIT: Nevermind, blue had come off - wow they really don't make them very well at retro_gaming_cables...

It finally works! Not satisfied though, I'm not getting that super fantastic picture other people seem to get. I have artifacts and rolling lines on some objects :/

EDIT: I also have a lot of audio noise, especially if the scene is very bright or has something flashing in it.

[synth79]

Which values are you guys using for scanlines for 240p sources in picture mode? Is 80 fine or are you using stronger?

Scan_A = 80

I'm happy with it but I would also like to know if anyone has a different value for 240p sources. Good question. I don't think I'll be changing mine as I absolutely adore the look of the SNES on this machine and SNES was my main reason for getting it.

Since I don't want to be buggering about with the settings every time I switch sources (probably quite often), I hope I can get away with leaving it at 80. Anyone else have different settings though?


untested waiting for cables: ps2, gamecube/wii, saturn, genesis. So Mileage may vary soon. I really hope I can leave it at 80 though. I did try changing it but I just love the beefy lines. =T

[synth79]

Does anyone here use the mini with an n64? Does it do that annoying video switching/hdmi handshake thing often? or just sometimes?

Depends on the game, I believe Resident Evil is quite prone to doing it since the inventory screen is in 480i but the game is in 240p. There are other titles with similar problems (Pinball Illusions on the Amiga, Micro Machines V3 on the PS1).

RE2 is impossible to play on the n64 if you have the ram pak installed instead of the jumper pak. almost every screen alternates between 480i and 240p, in addition to the inventory.

Has anyone figured out what they changed in 1.08 (and why it hasn't been released to everyone else)?

I don't know about you guys but I ain't taking that sucker out of there. Its in for life now. Implanted. This is one thing that bugs me about the FM, that mode changing thing. I hope it gets sorted in 1.08 ? If any first party games give trouble with the expansion pak in, then it will come out and stay out. Until that day, it's stayin in. ;T

[Bax]

Yup I'm using an adapter, it works perfectly with my Ps1, I sent pictures of it as well to the guy who made the cable so one would think that he made the cable so they'd work together...see anything strange that others might have missed?

I've tried loads of cable types, and the one with the least buzzing is the official Gamecube cable followed by the official SNES cable. The GC needs to be modified if used with PAL. There was about 2-3 times more buzzing with 3rd party and homemade "HQ" cables, but even the official ones are pretty bad with bright screens.

It doesn't look like there's anything connected to SNES scart cable pin 8? The sync stripper (SS) in your converter cable needs between +5v to +12v coming from the console or another source. But IIRC, the Framemeister+SNES doesn't work with the SS anyway(but the PS needs it). So you would be better of adding a bypass switch for the SS (the yellow sync wire in your converter cable).

If you get official cables, or other "properly" wired cables, you need make sure to link ground pin 17 with ground pin 4 at the EURO end in your converter cable, since the official cables doesn't use ground pin 4 (Playstation is opposite).

Also, I could be wrong

[Fudoh]

But IIRC, the Framemeister+SNES doesn't work with the SS anyway(but the PS needs it).

you don't NEED a stripper on the Mini for any system. You needed one for some systems before the sync level feature got added, but not since.

[RGB32E]

I've tried loads of cable types, and the one with the least buzzing is the official Gamecube cable followed by the official SNES cable. The GC needs to be modified if used with PAL. There was about 2-3 times more buzzing with 3rd party and homemade "HQ" cables, but even the official ones are pretty bad with bright screens.

The best audio solution for the SNES is the SPDIF mod. I have my SPDIF SNES 1CHIP-01 connected to a DacMagic 100 and the noise floor is virtually non-existent! Meaning, if I turn my preamp to ear splitting levels there is no noise or hum, regardless of on screen content.

[Krakko]

I keep having occasional audio (and on rare occasions, video) dropouts on the Genesis. I assume i need to mess with the sync level setting, but I kinda feel like I'm flying blind here. Do I need to be raising the sync level or lowering it?