XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Dochartaigh]

what look are you after ? Fullscreen upscaling without filtering as with FBX's profiles or a scanlined output ?

I'm looking to run MAME games in a pretty pixel-perfect way (compared to the actual boards...which I'm NOT getting into collecting those lol - WITH scanlines of course. Can't live without scanlines (and have been running the FBX 4x profiles with scanlines since I got my Framemeister).

Having it be full-screen (as in 4:3 still, but with jailbars ONLY on the left and right - NOT on the top/bottom/left/right like the FBX profiles give you - which I know are that way so the scaling is perfect) would be great to try out as well - as long as that doesn't screw up the scaling and introduce bad artifacts. If you guys want me to start a new topic so this Framemeister thread doesn't get too off-topic talking about RP3 emulation – just let me know. Thank you!

[Fudoh]

I think the biggest problem is that the Pi3's lag combined with the 1.5 frames the FM adds wouldn't turn out too good.

If you use 5x profiles instead of 4x profiles you don't end up with any borders on top or bottom. The FM doesn't have any proper vertical filter, so integer is your only option. On the Pi3 you can use Pixellate to get 720p (vertical) fullscreen output without scrolling artefacts. Doesn't play well with scanlines though.

Do you have the feeling that a shader like CRT Caligari (with adjusted, stronger scanlines) gives you a less perfect result than running the FM in 720p ?

[Dochartaigh]

I think the biggest problem is that the Pi3's lag combined with the 1.5 frames the FM adds wouldn't turn out too good.

That's a good point - but I'm a casual player with these MAME games on the RP3 (play everything else on actual consoles) so as long as it's fine for me and the couple people I'm playing with (either my age and usually have been drinking and won't notice lag much at all, or multiple 7-10 year olds -my cousins kids-, or both - we would be fine either way.

If you use 5x profiles instead of 4x profiles you don't end up with any borders on top or bottom. The FM doesn't have any proper vertical filter, so integer is your only option.

I've been meaning to ask - 5x must cut off some pixels, right? Because 240x5=1200 and 1080p displays are only 1080 pixels high? When I remove the 5x multiplier I'm guessing the equivalent of 12 pixels top and bottom (for 240p) if I counted correct - or only 8 pixels for 224p games?

I started with 5x FBX profiles then quickly shifted to the 4x because I was told those give nicer/better scanlines.

On the Pi3 you can use Pixellate to get 720p (vertical) fullscreen output without scrolling artefacts. Doesn't play well with scanlines though.
Do you have the feeling that a shader like CRT Caligari (with adjusted, stronger scanlines) gives you a less perfect result than running the FM in 720p ?

I'll try the Pixellate shader on the RP3 over HDMI, but I must admit I love scanlines and haven't found a single other shader that I care for. I wish you could bundle shaders together (don't think you can), but that might be a bit much for the processor as well...

I've only used CRT-Pi shader on the RP3 for scanlines - I will try Caligari when I get a chance. That's what people like now I assume? (I haven't been keeping up to date with RetroPie/RetroArch for many months now).

[fernan1234]

Hi folks, new user here looking for some help troubleshooting a pink/purple tint issue on the Mini. I've read about this problem in another forum and the workaround seemed to be turning the TV/monitor off for a while. The manual also says that a solution for this problem is to switch to RGB on the HDMI Color setting, unplugging and turning off all devices, and turning them on again. However, I was not able to get this solution to work consistently.

The first time I experienced the problem the tint went away on its own while all devices were running, but after switching to a different game (same system), the tint returned and couldn't get it to go away.

Thanks for any guidance.

[FBX]

I've been meaning to ask - 5x must cut off some pixels, right? Because 240x5=1200 and 1080p displays are only 1080 pixels high? When I remove the 5x multiplier I'm guessing the equivalent of 12 pixels top and bottom (for 240p) if I counted correct - or only 8 pixels for 224p games?

I started with 5x FBX profiles then quickly shifted to the 4x because I was told those give nicer/better scanlines.

Yeah I don't recommend 5x for 240, but it's more tolerable for 224 because less is cut off from view. And yes, scanlines take up 25% of the pixel in 4x versus 20% in 5x. For a 4K TV, it's even better to do 720 3x output for 224/240 games because scanlines will take up 33% of the pixel, and everything will scale to a perfect 9x.


-FBX

[Fudoh]

For a 4K TV, it's even better to do 720 3x output for 224/240 games because scanlines will take up 33% of the pixel, and everything will scale to a perfect 9x.

but while there are a handful of 4K TVs that apply a simple 2x scale for 1080p sources (by just doubling the pixels), I think we have yet to see confirmation on any set to do something similar (well, 3x) on 720p sources.

[Fudoh]

I'll try the Pixellate shader on the RP3 over HDMI, but I must admit I love scanlines and haven't found a single other shader that I care for. I wish you could bundle shaders together (don't think you can), but that might be a bit much for the processor as well...

Pixellate on a PC is amazing. You can do non-integer scales to any ratio you like. The RPi3 is too weak to do it in 1080p and 720p is ALMOST to low of a resolution for it, but still give it a try.

I've only used CRT-Pi shader on the RP3 for scanlines - I will try Caligari when I get a chance. That's what people like now I assume? (I haven't been keeping up to date with RetroPie/RetroArch for many months now).

Retroarch on PC allows you to tweak almost all shaders by using a onscreen menu, but I don't think the option is available yet on the Pi version of Retroarch. This is unfortunate since many shaders provide a great base, but would require some more tweaking.

[FBX]

but while there are a handful of 4K TVs that apply a simple 2x scale for 1080p sources (by just doubling the pixels), I think we have yet to see confirmation on any set to do something similar (well, 3x) on 720p sources.

From what I heard, it's only Panasonic, which isn't even sold in the USA for example.

[FBX]

Update for Neo Geo AES users (may also work with CMVS, but I can't confirm):

Code: Select all

Fine-tuned AES Neo Geo profiles (better masking and reduction of noise in blacks).

Provided in this package is a 'montest.neo' ROM for NeoSD users to calirbate their own A/D levels. To use the montest.neo ROM in the NeoSD, simply add the file to SD memory card with all the other .neo ROMs. It will then show in the game list as "Monitor Test Utility" and is basically a port of Artemio's 240 Test Suit. The trick for calibrating A/D is to load the color bars test pattern and adjust until the top two green shades are distinguishable. For my unmodded AES3-3 console. The calibrated A/D value ended up being 160. For those with RGB bypass mods in their Neo Geos, this value will be more likely in the 130s or 140s. 

-FBX

[FBX]

Okay so I just now replaced the cheap SCART cable I was using for the Dreamcast Toro Box with a beefy coaxial upgraded one, and now the A/D setting of 180 I have in the new profile is too bright. I had to turn the A/D down to 150 (this is using the brighter switch setting on the Toro). So if anyone else finds the 180 setting is also too bright on their end, lower it to 150 and re-save the profile.

I'll include the fix in an upcoming package update.

-FBX

[Last Springsteen]

I have to lower the A/D level to 110 (brighter Toro setting) otherwise colors are crushed. I'm using a packapunch Scart from RGC.

[FBX]

I have to lower the A/D level to 110 (brighter Toro setting) otherwise colors are crushed. I'm using a packapunch Scart from RGC.

Might be differences in the Dreamcast itself at this point. Then again, I always suggest everyone adjust A/D based on their own setups. In the case of the Dreamcast + Toro, I found the title screen letters to RE: Code Veronica serve as an excellent calibration point. They are made up of very light grey to white speckles, and so you raise A/D until they crush together, then lower A/D until they just come into view.

-FBX

[FBX]

So I want to warn about something that seems to be 'creeping' up in a few cases:

Certain brands of displays will eventually decide to "pink screen" and drop audio completely when using the Framemeister with them. The fix for the pink screen is to switch the OUTPUT_COLOR to RGB, but this is of course not optimal because the Framemeister screws up the green levels when set to RGB output. Also, the audio is still completely silent. Users have found switching to a different brand of display brings the audio back, so it's not the Framemeister screwing up, but rather TV sets being 'upset' with the Framemeister's HDMI YPbPr signal.

I've yet to hear of an exact cause or if any sort of setting change will bring audio back as well. If anyone knows anything more on this, let us know so we can try and figure out a solution.

-FBX

[Fudoh]

sounds like a weird issue. After all, neither the FM nor the TV have a "memory". I could imagine that it has something to do with the EDID minder feature of the FM, where the TV's EDID data is saved to the SD card. Maybe refreshing the SD card (remove or format and put the profiles back on) can solve this.

[FBX]

sounds like a weird issue. After all, neither the FM nor the TV have a "memory". I could imagine that it has something to do with the EDID minder feature of the FM, where the TV's EDID data is saved to the SD card. Maybe refreshing the SD card (remove or format and put the profiles back on) can solve this.

It is weird, and I'm hoping it's not some sort of permanent damage. The latest victim is Try4ce from My Life in Gaming, and this is the 5th case I have heard of. Apparently once the TV decides to go pink screen and drop audio, the audio never comes back when using the Framemeister on that display.

I'll send the suggestion to Try and see if anything like that works. There is a bunch of EDID and "Hot Plug" settings in the HDMI_SET menu. What would you suggest for these?

[Fudoh]

There is a bunch of EDID and "Hot Plug" settings in the HDMI_SET menu. What would you suggest for these?

I really don't know. Never experimented with these. Looking back of these options. The top EDID option is basically to improve compatibility with DVI-only displays. A pink image indicates a YCbCr vs. RGB issue, so this would certainly be my first try (auto vs. HDMI setting. Reboot required!).

The EDID SELECT option did allow you to tell the FM either to use the TV's EDID or to ignore it and use the FM's instead. What I'm not sure about is where the FM's EDID is derived from though. Maybe you can use it on one TV, read and save the EDID to a fresh SD card and then force the use this EDID data on another display. Never tried it.

TV HOTPLUG: really no idea. Hot plugging HDMI is bad a idea and has killed enough displays. I would keep this at off, no matter what. I don't think this one would have anything to do with the issue or the EDID question.

[FBX]

For those that haven't seen it yet, I posted a youtube video demonstrating how to use 240 test suites to calibrate A/D on the framemeister for a specific console:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W85qa2y ... e=youtu.be

Unfortunately Youtube's compression process screwed up the frame rate, and the gameplay at the end goes out of sync because of it. But you get the idea anyway.

-FBX

[Mantis128]

Does the RGB din handle a 480P YPBPR image that's gone through a YUV to RGB converter any better\worse than if it were going straight to D-terminal?

[FBX]

Does the RGB din handle a 480P YPBPR image that's gone through a YUV to RGB converter any better\worse than if it were going straight to D-terminal?

As long as you make sure to use OUTPUT_COLOR = AUTO, it will look fine so long as the RGB converter is properly translating the image. When you set output color to RGB, RGB sources get a faint green tinge to the image, and the SNES & N64 consoles have their brighter greens get really blown out with a neon glow that is unnatural to the original image. Using AUTO doesn't run into these issues. Unfortunately as we were discussing a couple posts up, there's some weird new issue starting to get reported by a few victims of the dreaded "Pink Screen + No Audio". It seems to come out of the blue, and once it happens, the users have reported switching back to RGB output corrects the picture, but the audio is still missing. Hooking the Framemeister up to another display will show the audio working just fine, so it seems to be something weird with a few select brands of TV that this happens in.

Edit: I just now realized you said 480p. I've not tried 480p into the RGB port, so I'm not sure if it actually works. I think I recall hearing it does work, but hopefully someone else can chime in on this.


-FBX

[Fudoh]

It works, but you have use a sync combiner to get RGBs instead of RGBHV. The sampling on the RGB input seems a little bit better resulting is less false contouring (which is usually present on 480p signals through component).

[FBX]

Update on the pink screen + no audio:

It's the TV itself being set to "Deep Color". You have to turn it off and then the Framemeister works fine (both audio and picture).

[Blair]

The latest victim is Try4ce from My Life in Gaming,

isn't he using Monoprice HDMI splitters in his set up? could that possibly have something to do with it? could there also be some type of power issue?

Update on the pink screen + no audio:

It's the TV itself being set to "Deep Color". You have to turn it off and then the Framemeister works fine (both audio and picture).

so it's just a symptom of the TV or equipment not being compatible with deep color? that also makes me think there might be something else going on in the set-up, because lots of HDMI splitters and HDMI switchers don't properly support deep color. (it's actually a pretty annoying problem for somebody like me that wants to record footage with deep color enabled)

[FBX]

so it's just a symptom of the TV or equipment not being compatible with deep color? that also makes me think there might be something else going on in the set-up, because lots of HDMI splitters and HDMI switchers don't properly support deep color. (it's actually a pretty annoying problem for somebody like me that wants to record footage with deep color enabled)

No, not the Framemeister's deep color mode, the TV's deep color mode is incompatible with the framemeister. What you're referring to with splitters is incompatibility with the Framemeister's deep color mode. This is a different issue than that.

[Blair]

oh, even if the TV does support deep color, it might not support that particular mode of deep color being output by the frame Meister? interesting. I know that deep color has several variations (30/36/48 bits per pixel across three RGB colors, also referred to as 10/12/16 bits per channel) do we know what type of deep color signal the frame Meister's outputting?

one of my asus monitors supports deep color, but it only supports 30/36 bits, and it gives an error message if I try to feed it 48-bit

[FBX]

oh, even if the TV does support deep color, it might not support that particular mode of deep color being output by the frame Meister?

No, no, you're mixing two different issues. Let me break it down as best I can:

The purple/pink screen + no audio was an issue with certain displays and their own internal deep color function not working with the Framemeister. The fix is to turn off the display's deep color mode.

The Framemeister's deep color mode causes an entirely different issue with some splitters and displays, and the fix for that is to turn off the Framemeister's deep color mode.

-FBX

[Lawfer]

Does the XRGB-3 have Deep Color mode?

[MojoBox]

So I think I figured out why I was having such poor results from 1080p output from the GameCube, and it's really confusing me.

When outputting at 1080p the Framemeister would not output a full screen image, no matter what settings I changed there was always a black border around the image. If I applied FBX's 2X GameCube profile I would get a much tinier image than I'd think I should be. Oddly if I used 1080i or 1080p50 I would get a full screen image.

So... what the heck? This is making it extremely difficult to get good results in 1080p. I was able to get roughly a full 1080p image by manually tweaking Zoom settings but it still seems off. I landed on using 480p output and letting my TV do the upscaling, which works well enough but makes the film grain on 'Movie' far too apparent making me resort to 'Natural' which mucks with the colors too much for my liking.

[StrzxgvNuvWvfld]

I just bought an RGB Modded PC Engine. Plugged straight into the back of TV there are no problems (except my TV gives it the usual blurry washed out treatment), plugged into the Framemeister, there was a loud buzzing through the speakers and the picture is distorted and won't stay in sync. I though maybe the cable was to blame, and after a little hacking around, I've discovered that if I disconnect the audio (pins 6 and 2) the Framemeister handles the video signal perfectly. Any idea what could be causing this? I notice nothing is connected to pin 4 (audio ground). Could that be to blame? If so, how would I fix it? Any help much appreciated!

[ApolloBoy]

I notice nothing is connected to pin 4 (audio ground). Could that be to blame? If so, how would I fix it? Any help much appreciated!

Wowww that's a huge oversight right there. It's easy to fix, just find a pin in the SCART cable that already has ground wired up to it, and then solder a wire from that to pin 4.

[StrzxgvNuvWvfld]

I notice nothing is connected to pin 4 (audio ground). Could that be to blame? If so, how would I fix it? Any help much appreciated!

Wowww that's a huge oversight right there. It's easy to fix, just find a pin in the SCART cable that already has ground wired up to it, and then solder a wire from that to pin 4.

Thanks, I'll give it a go. I thought that would be the correct approach, I was just worried about connecting something that could do some damage!