XRGB-mini Framemeister

[axlblazeadam]

I ordered a second framemeister just to have one in reserve.

The OSSC might be a great scaler, but i know the framemeister works well for most consoles i own.
I invested too much money on PS2 and SNES to risk having my scaler fail one day and not be able to replace it or having to pay an e-bay scammer 3 times the price of today.

Anyone else did the same ?

I ordered a backup one too. I couldn't imagine not having one anymore.

Same here!

[bonzo.bits]

I totally agree that 480i is nothing you want in the long run, but the fact remains that a lot of good titles from the late 90s to the mid 00s were 480i only and the FM is the best way to play there.

I guess I'll get on google then and find out which games I need to consider before I decide whether to keep the FM. Knowing me I'll probably end up buying a shit-tonne of new games at 480i and keeping the FM

@Guspaz. Thanks for the explanation, I was aware the OSSC does bob deinterlacing but the detail you gave was helpful.

[wyvernshill]

Did i tell all of you guys I love you ?

All the great work , information and general civilized people on this thread.
Many, Many thanks !

[bonzo.bits]

Did a bit of analysis this morning, comparing the 480i handling of the OSSC, OSSC 480i passthrough and the FM.

Setup:
Model 2 JPN Saturn.
Decathlete (Aka Athlete Kings)
Retro Console Accessories SCART cable (C-sync)
Panasonic 55VT60
FM settings - default except for changing HDMI Output to 1080p60
OSSC settings - default
TV settings - uncalibrated. SMPTE-C colour space

OSSC:

Pros - great colour. No combing. No jailbars.
Cons - Bob deinterlacing. Looking directly at static parts of the screen, such as text over a moving title screen background, made me feel kinda queasy. The 'bobbing' of the text, even at a viewing distance of 1.5-2 metres with a 55-inch screen, wasn't pleasing to look at. Graphics not as sharp as FM.
Verdict - probably fine as long as not looking at text directly or with greater viewing distance.

FM:

Pros - Sharp image. Very clean edges. Proper deinterlacing.
Cons - Very noticeable combing on certain 3D graphics such as athletes legs when running in game demo. Very strong jailbars on solid colours including menu screen and blue sky. Saturn jailbars (only on some models/units????) when used with the FM is a known issue with no current fix other than rolling back FM firmware versions somewhere around to 1.07 - 1.10.
Verdict - Not that great with my model 2 JPN Saturn. Need to test with other 480i consoles to determine if is the console or the FM.

480i passthrough:

Pros - TV correctly detects 480i signal and appears to handle correctly. No jailbars. No combing. No stupid bob deinterlacing
Cons - slightly blurred graphics compared to FM. Colour not as well reproduced as via OSSC.
Verdict - unexpectedly, this is the pick of the bunch as it doesn't suffer either of the main problems shown by the OSSC and the FM.

So, I'll hold out until FBX releases the 1080p profile for Saturn, but atm it looks like I will probably be selling the Framemeister after all. The only slightly blurred graphics shown in OSSC passthrough to the VT60 are less of a tradeoff than the jailbars and combing via the FM. Unless anyone can advise on FM setting that should alleviate this.

Given the VT60s awesome motion handling, colour reproduction and 480i deinterlacing, I'd even go as far as suggesting it as an excellent option for retro gamers - combined with the scaler of your choice. They're a few years old now so can probably be picked up for a decent price secondhand. And a quick Google will tell you how awesome they are at handling modern content. Just be mindful of image retention and incorrect handling of 240p over component.

[Guspaz]

FYI, there's a cost to 480i passthrough: your TV likely adds something like two extra frames of latency when given an interlaced image.

[Fudoh]

I think that's already factored in on his VT60. If I remember this right, the Panasonic plasma sets had the same lag no matter which signal you input.

[FBX]

So, I'll hold out until FBX releases the 1080p profile for Saturn, but atm it looks like I will probably be selling the Framemeister after all.

My Saturn arrives tomorrow, but the game I'm getting with it might only be in 240p (It's SF Zero II). It's a Japanese Saturn, so before I have to spend money on region unlocking, is there a cheap 480i Japanese Saturn game you can recommend?

Edit: Virtua Fighter 2 uses max resolution (704x480), so I've ordered that one for developing a hi-res profile.

[bonzo.bits]

Edit: Virtua Fighter 2 uses max resolution (704x480), so I've ordered that one for developing a hi-res profile.

Ebay prices indicate that would be hard to beat cost-wise.

I just popped in SFZ2 and it does 480i for it's art gallery mode, available under 'Illustrations' from the main menu (it's in English).

[FBX]

Edit: Virtua Fighter 2 uses max resolution (704x480), so I've ordered that one for developing a hi-res profile.

Ebay prices indicate that would be hard to beat cost-wise.

I just popped in SFZ2 and it does 480i for it's art gallery mode, available under 'Illustrations' from the main menu (it's in English).

Cool, this will give enough coverage to do profiles for both I and P modes. Now some games use 224 and others 240, but I'm betting it's a case of it technically being 240 for both with black bars on the 224 games, but we'll see how it goes.

[Cirventhor]

A small observation: Using a 4K TV I find that 480p output with a 480p source from the mini is better than outputting in 720p/1080p. Setting the mini to 480p allows the TV to do the upscaling from 480p -> 4K, which in my case results in a better image. I realize that I could at this point just use a component to HDMI transcoder, but my experience with those hasn't been good so far (waiting for the OSSC).

It might just be my experience, but I really do not like what the mini does when upscaling 480p to 720p/1080p.

[NormalFish]

The mini butchers 480p, so yeah it makes sense you wouldn't like it lol.

[FBX]

Just finished recalibrating and universalizing the GBI profiles to take advantage of a special build I made of GBI-LL.dol that is called "GBI-LL-Framemeister.dol". This version of GBI-LL is identical to the original, except the pixel aspect ratio has been set to 1:1. This gets rid of the 'shimmer' effect seen in horizontal scrolling of Game Boy games (most easily seen in Metroid 2's first hallway as you run to the right). Packaged with the dol file is 5x and 6x profiles for Game Boy Advance mode, and 5x, 6x, & 7x profiles for Game Boy mode.

Here's the download for those interested in checking it out:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/GBI ... eister.zip

Note: You can also use these profiles with the standard official latest versions of GBI, but you need to set an argument with them to force --aspect=1:1. An easy way of doing this is to pre-boot with Swiss, and then use Swiss to set the 1:1 aspect argument option.

[Guspaz]

I didn't realize that Extrems had released the source, otherwise I would have done a custom build with my preferred key bindings for SNES controllers. How did you implement that?

[FBX]

I didn't realize that Extrems had released the source, otherwise I would have done a custom build with my preferred key bindings for SNES controllers. How did you implement that?

I don't know if he did actually. I used a patch program that adds the argument to the existing dol file and then re-outputs a new build of the dol file using devkitpro. You can of course put in as many arguments as you want, so long as they are supported by the GBI version in question.

BTW, I'm not exactly sure if the profile settings carried over to RGB. I would need to get a PAL gamecube with an RGB SCART cable to double-check, but I do know S-Video and Video have been set along with Component on the profiles.

On another note, I just got in the Sega Saturn and have been developing new profiles for it. I have to say the RGB quality on SFZ2 was quite impressive with sharp and vivid graphics. However after a while of gaming on it, I did notice some very faint vertical jail bars in dark solid colors. It's a minor thing, but it would knock the PQ down to a 9 out of 10 for me.

[FBX]

Special Christmas profiles package update:

Code: Select all

34SATP4X  (Sega Saturn 240p scaled to 4X)
35SATP5X  (Sega Saturn 240p scaled to 5X)
36SATIUS  (Sega Saturn 480i scaled to 2x)
37SATIOS  (Sega Saturn 480i scaled to 2.5x)

39NEO4X   (Neo Geo 240p scaled to 4X)
40NEO5X   (Neo Geo 240p scaled to 5X)

Additional Notes & Updates:

1. The Neo Geo 5x profile was a bit tricky due to the 320 horizontal res taking up so much of the available signal width. I had to make clever combined use of the H_POS, H_WIDTH, ZOOM_H_POS, and ZOOM_WIDTH to set the AR and scale just perfect. The result in RGB was breath-taking though. The Neo Geo AES I used to make those profiles had superb RGB picture quality.

2. I also began the process of making all profiles work for any of the Framemeister's inputs instead of RGB or Component for example. Please note this is a work in progress, so as of this package, only NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Neo Geo, and Sega Saturn profiles have been updated in this regard. I will continue updating the remaining profiles to the new universal format and eventually upload the finished package.

3. All of the Game Boy Player profiles have been updated to lower the Audio volume. The GBP is WAY too loud at default 32, so I re-saved all of the profiles for it with an audio setting of 10.

4. Lastly, some profiles have been renamed with a two-digit numbering system at the beginning. This forces the profiles into company groups, and makes it easier for users to tell me which profile they are having trouble with. This is also a work in progress, and whether it works out as a better system depends on the feedback I get.

Here's the package link:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... 5-2016.zip



.

[axlblazeadam]

Special Christmas profiles package update

This is amazing, thank you so much! Can't wait to try these out today

[opt2not]

Nice! Been waiting for your Saturn profiles. My settings have been fine, but I'm sure yours are tuned better.

Just in time to fire up Christmas NiGHTS into Dreams!

[Mikeramos]

Great job FBX!!! Many thanks!!

Only one question:

"Additional Notes & Updates:

1. The Neo Geo 5x profile was a bit tricky due to the 320 horizontal res taking up so much of the available signal width. I had to make clever combined use of the H_POS, H_WIDTH, ZOOM_H_POS, and ZOOM_WIDTH to set the AR and scale just perfect. The result in RGB was breath-taking though. The Neo Geo AES I used to make those profiles had superb RGB picture quality."

The neo geo isn't it 320*224 instead 240p?

[FBX]

Great job FBX!!! Many thanks!!

Only one question:

"Additional Notes & Updates:

1. The Neo Geo 5x profile was a bit tricky due to the 320 horizontal res taking up so much of the available signal width. I had to make clever combined use of the H_POS, H_WIDTH, ZOOM_H_POS, and ZOOM_WIDTH to set the AR and scale just perfect. The result in RGB was breath-taking though. The Neo Geo AES I used to make those profiles had superb RGB picture quality."

The neo geo isn't it 320*224 instead 240p?

All 224 consoles technically send a 240p signal. It just depends on if the internal resolution uses all 240 lines or just 224. But yes, the Neo Geo's internal res is 320x224.

[Grimakis]

Great job FBX!!! Many thanks!!

Only one question:

"Additional Notes & Updates:

1. The Neo Geo 5x profile was a bit tricky due to the 320 horizontal res taking up so much of the available signal width. I had to make clever combined use of the H_POS, H_WIDTH, ZOOM_H_POS, and ZOOM_WIDTH to set the AR and scale just perfect. The result in RGB was breath-taking though. The Neo Geo AES I used to make those profiles had superb RGB picture quality."

The neo geo isn't it 320*224 instead 240p?

All 224 consoles technically send a 240p signal. It just depends on if the internal resolution uses all 240 lines or just 224. But yes, the Neo Geo's internal res is 320x224.

In this case, does that mean there are 8 black lines on the top and bottom of the picture?

[FBX]

Great job FBX!!! Many thanks!!

Only one question:

"Additional Notes & Updates:

1. The Neo Geo 5x profile was a bit tricky due to the 320 horizontal res taking up so much of the available signal width. I had to make clever combined use of the H_POS, H_WIDTH, ZOOM_H_POS, and ZOOM_WIDTH to set the AR and scale just perfect. The result in RGB was breath-taking though. The Neo Geo AES I used to make those profiles had superb RGB picture quality."

The neo geo isn't it 320*224 instead 240p?

All 224 consoles technically send a 240p signal. It just depends on if the internal resolution uses all 240 lines or just 224. But yes, the Neo Geo's internal res is 320x224.

In this case, does that mean there are 8 black lines on the top and bottom of the picture?

I believe so. I recall confirming this on the Super NES, but I've not tested the theory beyond that. The only other evidence is the Framemeister itself reports everything at 240p or lower as simply 240p.

[austin532]

From what I've seen most SNES games do but I could swear some NES games have 16 black lines on top.

[FBX]

From what I've seen most SNES games do but I could swear some NES games have 16 black lines on top.

The NES resolution actually is 240p, which most games make full use of. Zelda and Metroid are good examples.

[austin532]

Most of them do but I believe there are some that don't. The SNES however outputs 240p as well but I can't think of any games the run in 240p.

[copy]

2. I also began the process of making all profiles work for any of the Framemeister's inputs instead of RGB or Component for example. Please note this is a work in progress, so as of this package, only NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Neo Geo, and Sega Saturn profiles have been updated in this regard. I will continue updating the remaining profiles to the new universal format and eventually upload the finished package.

Regarding this -- when I was testing my SNES through s-video tonight, I tried your new 06SNS4X profile, and the results did not seem right. It produced a very soft image.

I went back to an old profile I manually made with your SNSRGB4X settings breakdown, and it was perfect. I wonder if there is a problem with 06SNS4X, at least in the s-video settings? (Sorry, I didn't manually check/compare the settings directly.)

Thanks for all your continued great work on this stuff!

[FBX]

2. I also began the process of making all profiles work for any of the Framemeister's inputs instead of RGB or Component for example. Please note this is a work in progress, so as of this package, only NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Neo Geo, and Sega Saturn profiles have been updated in this regard. I will continue updating the remaining profiles to the new universal format and eventually upload the finished package.

Regarding this -- when I was testing my SNES through s-video tonight, I tried your new 06SNS4X profile, and the results did not seem right. It produced a very soft image.

I went back to an old profile I manually made with your SNSRGB4X settings breakdown, and it was perfect. I wonder if there is a problem with 06SNS4X, at least in the s-video settings? (Sorry, I didn't manually check/compare the settings directly.)

Thanks for all your continued great work on this stuff!

I'll double check it. I know that sometimes the Scaler settings do not load properly (it's a glitch), and you have to go into the Visual_Set options and toggle the H_Scaler setting one digit and then back again to reactivate the scaler mode. Try that and see if it fixes it. Also let me know what values are set there for both H_Scaler and V_Scaler. Thanks!

Edit: Just checked it and it's got the same sharp settings as before. Likely you did encounter the scaler glitch. Of course also make sure to use "Load" instead of "Load_Select" (though I don't believe it skirts the glitch, it does make sure Zoom settings are activated).

[gutsmanheavy]

I got a scart cable to connect my Dreamcast to the mini and I only get audio, what would cause this?

[FBX]

I got a scart cable to connect my Dreamcast to the mini and I only get audio, what would cause this?

Could be you're trying to play a game that doesn't support RGB. There's a thread about it here:

http://www.bordersdown.net/threads/1153 ... compatible

[gutsmanheavy]

I got a scart cable to connect my Dreamcast to the mini and I only get audio, what would cause this?

Could be you're trying to play a game that doesn't support RGB. There's a thread about it here:

http://www.bordersdown.net/threads/1153 ... compatible

Did a test with Skies oF Arcadia (PAL RGB confirmed) and nothing, worth noting that it seems to only boot to the DC menu (no picture, only sound) and not into the games themselves. Bad cable?

[Kagigod]

I got a scart cable to connect my Dreamcast to the mini and I only get audio, what would cause this?

Could be you're trying to play a game that doesn't support RGB. There's a thread about it here:

http://www.bordersdown.net/threads/1153 ... compatible

Did a test with Skies oF Arcadia (PAL RGB confirmed) and nothing, worth noting that it seems to only boot to the DC menu (no picture, only sound) and not into the games themselves. Bad cable?

Did you try increasing the sync level? Base level is like 9 or so, try increasing to 15 or so, until the image appears