What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[Mischief Maker]

Thank you for the recommendation about deckbuilding games pals.

But does it always have to be roguelike gameplay ? What is the advantage of this in a deckbuilder game ?

Well to be clear, a "deckbuilder" is a card game where you collect and build up your deck during gameplay (usually starting out with an assortment of trash cards) verses Magic the Gathering where building your deck and playing the game are separate activities.

So a deckbuilder is already a game about creating a build from randomly offered upgrades in an ever shifting and unpredictable battlefield. In other words, how can a deckbuilder not be a roguelite?

[Lethe]

Tried playing Jupiter Hell (DoomRL sequel) again after having left it alone for quite a while, since it had an update and is supposed to be having its 1.0 release in two months (whatever 1.0 means). My feelings earlier on were mixed and at this stage they remain pretty mixed.

The crux of the problem is that JH has a drastically saner design paradigm than DRL and I can't help but compare them. Instead of AI-manipulating asymmetric warfare I get XCOM TBT odds management. Instead of choosing to have every gun and ammo type I find at the cost of all my inventory space, carrying 8 identical shotguns because juggling them is faster than reloading, or using the BFG magazine as a battery my weapons go straight into three predetermined slots and can't be moved. Instead of playing faster and looser to greed out overheal or stacking invulnerability globes and rampaging through floors I get one (1) guaranteed medical box per floor containing one (1) variety of medkit and one (1) instant health boost. Instead of taking risks to get a low-cost berserk proc then racing to massacre everything before I run out of chances to continue the proc chain I get "melee guard" which translates to a dodge chance when I'm close to an enemy.

Granted, not everything on this front's bad. DRL assemblies are fun but they rely entirely on outside knowledge, and JH's replacement with mutator roulette weapons makes for more weighing of gear choices while not being hopelessly obscure. The cover system is a necessary and logical replacement for the broken cornershooting. There are also improvements in other areas, such as the crafting terminals, and the branching levels (at least in concept). But I worry that as with many other successor projects there's been a conflation of "sane" with "good" which in reality is almost never true.

JH also currently lacks terrain destruction, which the developer's said he's wanted to implement at some point, which is great because it's a defining part of DRL. But another defining part of DRL which seems to be permanently gone from JH is knockback. Knockback is horribly abusable in DRL when combined with cornershooting so I'm not surprised it was changed, but to be gone completely feels really weird and contributes to the game's overall sense of undynamic flatness. The number of times I've died by being shoved into lava by explosions, or saved my life with a rocketjump or last ditch direct hit to send an enemy flying out of line of sight, or opened a door to a pinky room and only barely been able to keep them off me... I can't imagine DRL without those sort of moments, and JH doesn't (yet) have any equivalent. The positional audio aspect is still there, but most of the enemy sounds aren't at all charismatic, so it might as well not exist in many cases.

[guigui]

Thank you for the recommendation about deckbuilding games pals.

But does it always have to be roguelike gameplay ? What is the advantage of this in a deckbuilder game ?

Well to be clear, a "deckbuilder" is a card game where you collect and build up your deck during gameplay (usually starting out with an assortment of trash cards) verses Magic the Gathering where building your deck and playing the game are separate activities.

So a deckbuilder is already a game about creating a build from randomly offered upgrades in an ever shifting and unpredictable battlefield. In other words, how can a deckbuilder not be a roguelite?

Well said, I totally understand that. Now two more questions :

* are Slay the Spire / Monster Train / Griftlands / FITS rogue"lite" ? In the sense that during each run you can unlock permanent upgrades that can help the following runs, ala Rogue Legacy or Dead Cells. Or are they rogue"like" where each run completely resets everything.

* do games ala Magic the Gathering exist, where building and playing are separate ?

[Sumez]

Does the roguelike/roguelite term apply at all when you take out every single remnant of the dungeon crawling experience?

Are all arcade games roguelikes? Is roguelike the new hip term to sell "arcade style" to young video game enjoyers?

Are my hot takes old and worn out?

[guigui]

Does the roguelike/roguelite term apply at all when you take out every single remnant of the dungeon crawling experience?

Are all arcade games roguelikes? Is roguelike the new hip term to sell "arcade style" to young video game enjoyers?

Are my hot takes old and worn out?

Damn, I did not want to raise the "rogue" question again... Let's try to clean that word out of the conversation :

- MM just explained to me that those deckbuilders game have random layout, card drops and enemies by their very nature.
- I was asking if every run starts exactly the same, or if each run can have consequences on the following ones.

[Sumez]

Fair, and thanks for clarifying, honestly

[Blinge]

Are all arcade games roguelikes? Is roguelike the new hip term to sell "arcade style" to young video game enjoyers?

Are my hot takes old and worn out?

u a silly.

Also where does Lost Kingdoms fit into the whole deck builder business

[Sumez]

I have no idea, but even asking that question bumps up those games another peg on my "Fromsoft games I still need to acquire" shortlist.

[Stevens]

Runs are stand alone in FITS.

[guigui]

Runs are stand alone in FITS.

Meaning that mainly the "git gud" part of you (along with a little luck on the drops) makes you go farther each time ?

[Stevens]

Yeah. You'll learn what cards you like, figure out which are better, and how the enemies behave.

There are pre made decks or you can draft your own. Sometimes I want a specific cards, other times I'll pick random cards and see what happens.

It's still in early access, not sure what other changes are planned, but it feels close to finished. Maybe some balancing? Some decks are way better late game.

[XoPachi]

I've had Amid Evil in my library for months and am only just now getting around to it. I picked an excellent time since I don't have any single player titles right now to play. This is a perfect time to pick this up and it's magical. But it also makes me wonder how the old men I know constantly screeching about "nu-eff pee ess" games always seem to miss on these. I swear, it's like a new damn good classic experience every year. And they tend to be really authentic.
This game is so much fun with some really cool level design. I'm just always happy to get a straight forward single player action game that isn't procedurally generated in some aspect.

[Vanguard]

Are all arcade games roguelikes? Is roguelike the new hip term to sell "arcade style" to young video game enjoyers?

Yes, these days roguelike means an arcade-style game with at least a bit of randomization, usually one where if you die you get better stats for your next try. I don't like it but that's how it is. The word roguelite is kind of sort of catching on for those types of games, and I would prefer that happens so the word roguelike doesn't get diluted into oblivion.

[Mischief Maker]

Does the roguelike/roguelite term apply at all when you take out every single remnant of the dungeon crawling experience?

Are all arcade games roguelikes? Is roguelike the new hip term to sell "arcade style" to young video game enjoyers?

Are my hot takes old and worn out?

Roguelites are games with permadeath, randomized stage layouts, and the accumulation of perks and/or equipment with intent to form specific "builds" to survive the later stages/end boss.

It's more of a genre adjective than its own separate form. So a game like Dead Cells is an "Action-roguelite," Darkest Dungeon is a "Roguelite-RPG," and Bad North is a "Tactics-roguelite."

As someone with limited time, I appreciate the roguelite descriptor because it lets me know that I can get the experience of what's often a time-consuming genre in a short period of time along with copious replayability.

I do not consider them equivalent to Arcade games because the skill you need to learn to master a roguelite has more to do with learning how to create a better build than the action twitch mechanics.

I don't consider unlock cancer to be a necessary part of the genre, games like Spelunky or Infinite Space III: Sea of Stars are roguelites but either have none, or zero-gameplay-impact unlocking.

[Gamer707b]

Just finished Fight N Rage. It was amazing and I'm glad it matched the hype . A game is special when I immediatley want to start a new game right after finishing it. Much better than River City Girls. I hope this guy does a sequel or even something different.

[To Far Away Times]

I started playing Hollow Knight.

Not as hard as I was expecting in the moment to moment combat and exploration so far, but it's one of those games where it's just oppressive and everything is tilted against you. Like the map system, it adds difficulty and makes the game obtuse just for the sake of it. Why not just have a satisfying map like every other castleroid style game? This was perfected decades ago. Or having to get your souls back when you die? There are some real asshole game design decisions in this game.

Despite this, I am enjoying it and there's some good spots for sure, but I'm not sure this one lives up to the hype where I'd see people casually tossing it's name around with the genre heavyweights.

[Blinge]

It's a slow burn at the beginning. Once I hit Greenpath my tune changed.

Also the map thing is interesting in that your whole objective in a new area is tentatively searching for the vendor - Your whole purpose there is immediately changed when you find him and the game goes back to your regular metroidvania mentality of " I'm exploring, nothing can really threaten me."

Then later when it comes to updating the map, you may be deep into a new area and faced with the risk/reward of press on? or retreat to use a bench and bank all that map progress. Although i think if you die it all gets updated anyway as you respawn on a bench..

I assume you bought the quill, so the lil knight can add to the map, right?

Having to get your geo back when you die is still less harsh than Sotn or smet where a death kills all your progress and sends you back to the last save?

[WelshMegalodon]

Am I just terrible, or is Garou Densetsu Special home to some of the most frustrating single-player AI known to man?

[BIL]

I never made a serious 1CC run at it, but I recall Special being pretty ornery. Ryo's one of the big Nightmare Bosses of that era too, though AFAIK, he didn't get any of the devs fired like General from Kaiser Knuckle did.

[Blinge]

Haha, i sometimes think " Man i'm gonna go back and clear the arcade modes of all them classic fighters. "
Then I remember SNK bosses exist, and I give that dream up.

Recently finished my boss killin' on my single player Valheim world

https://youtu.be/rPNnHKCmp9w

Here's the video, it's mainly aimed at Drauch I guess.
The reward reaped from those hours of iron mining.
Come to think of it I should've filmed my chaotic raids on the lil' goblin camps cause those are way more dangerous..

I can't quite put my finger on why I enjoyed the game so much. Maybe it's because it's the first " survival " game that clicked with me. Or first game in the genre I've seen in which knowhow + skill, preparation, farming + gathering actually come together in the final product.
There's something to be said for all your gear/effectiveness having been pulled out of the ground by none other than yourself.

[Stevens]

90's SNK knew how to syphon quarters out of pockets of gullible kids.

[Randorama]

Ryo in Garou Densetsu Special is not easy to trigger, though. You need to defeat each enemy with 2-0 scores, before you can fight him.

And yes, the AI in this and other early SNK games is a #"¤! nightmare. I like to play this gem from time to time (G. Howard, of course), and I can do 1-CC it or lose at the first stage depending on whether I can religiously abuse the specific tricks for each enemy or not (e.g. Axel Hawk with G. Howard is "wait one second after the round starts, use the strong seppuken, Hawk will jump back but get knocked down by the hit, repeat").

Still, I absolutely adore this and the other early Neo Geo titles (yes, even Robo Army). I blame Ryuichi Sakamoto for this!

[Marc]

Ryo in Garou Densetsu Special is not easy to trigger, though. You need to defeat each enemy with 2-0 scores, before you can fight him.

And yes, the AI in this and other early SNK games is a #"¤! nightmare. I like to play this gem from time to time (G. Howard, of course), and I can do 1-CC it or lose at the first stage depending on whether I can religiously abuse the specific tricks for each enemy or not (e.g. Axel Hawk with G. Howard is "wait one second after the round starts, use the strong seppuken, Hawk will jump back but get knocked down by the hit, repeat").

Still, I absolutely adore this and the other early Neo Geo titles (yes, even Robo Army). I blame Ryuichi Sakamoto for this!

I didn't even know Ryo was in it! You learn something every day.
When I had my own Neo, I became decidedly obsessed with Art of Fighting 2 for a while, managed to get to a point where I could cheese my way to the last boss on a regular basis, but I remember that being a right cheap asshole. Not the smoothest of games, but damn it has style.

[drauch]

Here's the video, it's mainly aimed at Drauch I guess.
The reward reaped from those hours of iron mining.
Come to think of it I should've filmed my chaotic raids on the lil' goblin camps cause those are way more dangerous..

I would definitely watch that! Have there been any additions to the game or changes in gameplay? I still haven't touched it since we discussed it last.

[Mischief Maker]

I just got my first 5-star in Slipways:

Spoiler

Slipways is a serious contender for my 2021 GOTY.

It's a puzzle/strategy hybrid about a multi-species federation peacefully colonizing a practically infinite universe together. You have a 25-year term to build colonies and a network of FTL gates between them to fulfill resource needs and increase their prosperity levels, while also burning excess resources to learn new techs, and also fulfilling missions for your 3 alien partners to level up their diplomatic bonuses.

If you ever played the old indie game Defense of the Oasis, this is kinda like a massively expanded version of that.

[Blinge]

I would definitely watch that! Have there been any additions to the game or changes in gameplay? I still haven't touched it since we discussed it last.

Mostly cosmetic.. although it now costs only TWO stone to raise ground instead of 4

[Blinge]

Well I finally took Big Sumez' advice and restarted DQXI with Super Strong monsters on.

It feels like i'm playing Dragon Quest now.
(tho it must be said i've only played 1 and 2)

I've died already!

.. then i decided fuck grinding and ran to Heliodor, and have done the escape sequence. I think I will play without level-grinding as long as I can until the game forces me to, just to see.

[Sumez]

You can go all the way to the final boss without needing to grind. The game is much more about proper tactics than higher stats.
I also enabled the draconian option that effectively prevents grinding, and it makes enemy EXP drop off super fast.
It's kinda weirdly balanced though, I probably wouldn't recommend it.

[Blinge]

I dunno bro I rushed to Tricky Devil and he tore me a new one.
I could've beaten him if i'd plowed through my entire stock of healing herbs but I didn't feel like doing that.
I grinded like two levels and used the forge a lot and nothing's bothered me since (i'm at door of departure)

I'm just gonna take a fight now and then, i guess?

Turning on the tough monsters thing has.. made it feel like a video game again

[Randorama]

I didn't even know Ryo was in it! You learn something every day.
When I had my own Neo, I became decidedly obsessed with Art of Fighting 2 for a while, managed to get to a point where I could cheese my way to the last boss on a regular basis, but I remember that being a right cheap asshole. Not the smoothest of games, but damn it has style.

Ah-ah, then you must know that in AOF2, if you also deliver a 2-0 to all the adversaries, you fly to a mysterious tower after defeating Mr. Big and fight against a much younger Geese Howard. The "true final boss & ending" in this case explains that AOF2 is a prequel to FF and KOF, as it presents events taking place 10 years or so before FF (i.e. Jeff Bogard is still alive, Takuma Sakazaki is working to frame a younger Howard who is already a highly corrupt bastard, and so on).

Geese in AOF2 is also an absurdly cheap bastard, of course, but then again all early SNK fighting games were like that.