Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I just thought that reviewers (at least back then) knew more about what they were reviewing

And that is exactly where you went wrong, my friend.

I remember only trusting Die Hard Game Fan which gave decent reviews back then with amazing screenshots and layouts. All three of their reviewers gave Raystorm a 90 at the time. They even pointed out the difficulty adjustments made by Working Designs to the US revision.

Sure, Working Designs had released Raystorm under their new PSX "Spaz" gaming label with a special $10,000 usd contest to promote it in October of 1997. I entered the contest and won a WD Raystorm mouse pad as a consolation prize and placed within the Top 10 RS Overall Rankings as well. If the WD default difficulty were lowered or changed, you couldn't submit your RS contest score anyways -- true story. The WD published promotional Raystorm poster was cool as they were being sold at $10.00 a pop brand new. Bought one and received two for the price of one -- how cool was that? Had it professionally framed for posterity (but set me back to the tune of $178.00 usd + tax to get it done -- totally worth the additional expense in the end). Had to break down & buy a Taito FX-1B arcade pcb of RS to play/compare to the PSX console port of the same name.

When WD released Ray Crisis in 2001 for the PSX console, they had another $10,000 usd contest to promote it as well. I entered that one also and didn't hear back from WD whatsoever, contest-wise. WD did not offer nor sell a promotional Ray Crisis poster to the general public -- would've gladly have bought one if they did so.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Randorama]

Sorry, I haven't replied to this because I haven't been able to get an answer for you. I think a Donpachi scoring vet like Plasm0 may be the best one to direct this question to. He's much more familiar with the scoring to the extent he's aware of the Japanese community's fan names for the various chains in each stage to execute, etc.

Thanks, no worries then.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Actually, it occurs to me I can just record footage and then math it out. Kill a specific set of enemies 1 at a time to figure out their base value, then record killing the same enemies with a 5 chain, 10 chain, etc. Because the wiki uses two examples with only 3 hits each, it's sadly not quite as clear as it could be.

[Randorama]

That is why I was wondering if the wikis were correct.

What I recalled for DonPachi is that the first enemy determines the base value of the chain, and that for every hit players would score (base value+enemy value)*(number of hits).

A 10-hit chain (pardon, GP) starting from a power-up carrier worth 1,2k points plus 9 helicopters worth 130 points would thus be worth:

[(1,2k*1)+((1,2k+130)*2)+((1,2k+130)*3)+...+((1,2k+130)*10]=73020 points

I am not sure on how to re-write the sum:

[(Base value)+((base value+enemy value)*(hit=2))+...+((base value+enemy value)*(hit=n))], perhaps?

It looks like gibberish to me, but I am just wild guessing and the forum's tools are not so helpful for math abstractions at 1 am....

I tried to do the math myself with enemies' values from the wiki and using a short chain as an example, but I was not quite sure of my numbers.

I do remember that there is a video tutorial in Japanese on youtube, which might be a faster way to check how the chains in DP work. I agree that starting a chain from a more rewarding enemy is important, because some chains can reach high scores given that they start from enemies worth a lot of points (e.g. on stage 4, stage 5).

...Not that I can pull them off, but I was curious about the precise formula. I also suspect that DDP and further sequels use a simpler formula (i.e. the overall sum of: (enemy value*hit number)).

[Plasmo]

What I recalled for DonPachi is that the first enemy determines the base value of the chain, and that for every hit players would score (base value+enemy value)*(number of hits).

A 10-hit chain (pardon, GP) starting from a power-up carrier worth 1,2k points plus 9 helicopters worth 130 points would thus be worth:

[(1,2k*1)+((1,2k+130)*2)+((1,2k+130)*3)+...+((1,2k+130)*10]=73020 points

That's not quite how it works. DonPachi is a much simpler game than this. In your example, the scoring would look as follows:

(10*1,200)+(9*130)+(8*130)+(7*130)+(6*130)+(5*130)+(4*130)+(3*130)+(2*130)+(1*130) = 17,850

Which can (hopefully!) be abstracted to the formula you find on the wiki:

hit count * A + (hit count - 1) * B + (hit count - 2) * C + ... + 1 * Z

Do you know a better way for an abtract formula to express what is happening?

The actual score progression for each individual hit looks like this. There are no multipliers at work at all, it's all mere addition.

1st Hit: 1,200
2nd Hit: 130+1,200
3rd Hit: 130+130+1,200
4th Hit: 130+130+130+1,200
5th Hit 130+130+130+130+1,200
6th Hit: 130+130+130+130+130+1,200
7th Hit: 130+130+130+130+130+130+1,200
8th Hit: 130+130+130+130+130+130+130+1,200
9th Hit: 130+130+130+130+130+130+130+130+1,200
10th Hit: 130+130+130130++130+130+130+130+130+1,200

You are quite right that having high-value enemies early on in your chain (the chain doesn't necessarily have to start with them) is more lucrative for score. This happens when the item carrier is destroyed last:

(10*130)+(9*130)+(8*130)+(7*130)+(6*130)+(5*130)+(4*130)+(3*130)+(2*130)+(1*1,200) = 8,220

But having the item carrier as the second or third target in your chain is still pretty good.

For what it's worth, the basic chain system for all succeeding titles in the series stayed the same I think. For Dodonpachi I'm certain, for Daioujou it's hard to say as the game gives less information on screen.

[Randorama]

Thanks, Plasmo.

I don't doubt the formula you propose per se, but I was getting perplexed by the scores that can be obtained by chaining. My understanding is that chains increase the points obtained from enemies' destruction, according to the number of hits/GPs the player can obtain. I tried to analyse some videos in a step-by-step manner, but I was not sure that I was understanding the scores displayed in the GP counter correctly. The numbers I was reading did not allow me to interpolate the formula correctly (i.e. reconstruct the formula from the scores displayed, hit after hit. If this is not possible, then you know where my mistake may have laid).

Perhaps using the wiki formula may be useful to see if I am just getting confused in matching "the math" with the video. In my understanding, if a player completes a 10-hit chain that starts from a power-up carrier (1,200 points, and that includes nine helicopters (130 points), then the player should in theory obtain this amount of points (vertical order may be better, for readability purposes):

hit count=10 * 1200 (carrier) +
(hit count - 1)=9 * 130 (helicopter) +
(hit count - 2)=8 * 130 (helicopter) +
(hit count - 3)=7 * 130 (helicopter) +
(hit count - 4)=6 * 130 (helicopter) +
(hit count - 5)=5 * 130 (helicopter) +
(hit count - 6)=4 * 130 (helicopter) +
(hit count - 7)=3* 130 (helicopter) +
2 * (hit count - 9)=2 (helicopter) +
(hit count - 9)=1 * 130 (helicopter)=
17,850 points.

If I am reading the formula correctly, then having a higher GP/chain that starts from a valuable enemy would result in a considerable "basic" score, plus the points obtained from destroying the other enemies in the GP/chain. For instance, a 20 GP starting from a brown tank (from stage 1: 4,400 points?) and including 19 helicopters would correspond to 4,400*20+...+130*1=112,700 points (I calculated the score by hand). My subjective impression is that these values are closer to the scores that appear in the GP count, in-game. The values also seem entirely consistent with the formula, if I understand it correctly.

At this point, I am understanding that the formula is accurate, but also that I was getting quite confused by the information that the game displays during a chain/GP. From the formula, it is also relatively clear that including more valuable enemies at the beginning of a chain/GP is the optimal score choice, since the longer the GP, the higher the multiplier for these enemies would be.

Said this, I wouldn't modify the formula. Maybe the wiki(s) could also include slightly longer examples involving different enemies and values, and perhaps a comment on scores on display: my confusion may simply stem from this aspect of the game. In my experience, a simple and short example can quickly illustrate a rule, and a less simple/slightly longer example can dispel doubts about the soundness of the rule. Ultimately, I believe that readers of the wiki decide what will be clearer for them to understand.

[Plasmo]

Said this, I wouldn't modify the formula. Maybe the wiki(s) could also include slightly longer examples involving different enemies and values, and perhaps a comment on scores on display: my confusion may simply stem from this aspect of the game. In my experience, a simple and short example can quickly illustrate a rule, and a less simple/slightly longer example can dispel doubts about the soundness of the rule. Ultimately, I believe that readers of the wiki decide what will be clearer for them to understand.

Thanks so much for the feedback! I agree that a more complex example will better illustrate how chaining works. I will also address the in-game display. Expect a new edit over the weekend or so.

And good luck on the 2-All!

[wiNteR]

There is one thing that isn't fully clear to me from the 10-hit chain example in last 2 or 3 posts. Suppose one's score was "0" before the beginning of this chain. What will be the "total" score after the 10-hit chain?
(i) Is the total score going to be 17,850?
(ii) Or is the total score going to be:
17850+2370=20220

===========

At any rate, it is fairly easy to write the "chain score" using summation notation. For example, suppose we have a N-hit chain. For any positive (natural) number 1<= i <=N, let s_i denote the "base scoring value" for the i-th enemy destroyed in the chain.

Taking the example of 17,850 chain score described in last two or three posts we will have:
N=10
s_1=1200
s_2 = s_3 = s_4 = s_5 = s_6 = s_7 = s_8 = s_9 = s_10 = 130

On the other hand, if we take 8220 chain score example given by plasmo then we will have:
N=10
s_1 = s_2 = s_3 = s_4 = s_5 = s_6 = s_7 = s_8 = s_9 = 130
s_10=1200


Now the "chain score" is given by the following sum:
sum(i=1 to N) [ (N+1-i) * s_i ]

===========

Now if the answer to question I asked at the beginning of this post is (i) then the above summation also gives the total score. If it is (ii) then the total score is just:
sum(i=1 to N) [ s_i + (N+1-i) * s_i ]

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Thanks for taking the time to come and clarify things, Plasmo.

[Randorama]

Plasmo: no worries, and no hurry for the edits. The guide is perfect but the advantage of wikis is that documents can be made better any time, unlike "classic" publications. The 2-ALL's will come along nicely, version by version (OK, no HK): having time to play actually makes things easier.

WiNteR:

Thank you very much. I admit having no idea on how to write summation notation without symbols, so your clarification avoided me a few headaches (I also never really use summations, to be honest ). I guess that the answer to your question would be (i) at first glance, though I am sure which score (ii) stands for: I am probably getting confused in re-reading the messages so far.

[Randorama]

My understanding is that the display below the GP counter only shows the total value of the chain updated to the last enemy in the chain. I will try to write the values down and underline them to make them easily identifiable. I am updating the chain with the information about the multiplier made explicit.

Please imagine a player that starts from 1,000,000 (1 million) points and performs the following chain without scoring in any other manner whatsoever.

Start of the chain:

1st hit: 1,200*1=1,200 points
2nd hit: 1,200* 2 + 130*1=1330 points
3rd hit: 1,200*3+130*2+130*1=3990 points
4th hit: 1200*4+130*3+130*2+130*1=5580 points
5th hit: 1200*5+130*4+130*3+130*2+130=7300 points
6th hit: 1200*6+130*5+130*4+130*3+130*2+130=8890 points
7th hit: 1200*7+130*6+130*5+130*4+130*3+130*2+130=11130 points
8th hit: 1200*8+130*7+130*6+130*5+130*4+130*3+130*2+130=12980 points
9th hit: 1200*9+130*8+130*7+130*6+130*5+130*4+130*3+130*2+130=15480 points
10th hit: 1200*10+130*9+130*8+130*7+130*6+130*5+130*4=130*3+130*2+130=17850 points

End of the chain.

The score that will appear (below the "1player" mark) will be "1,000,000", then "1,001,200" (after the 1st hit), then "1,001,330" (after the 2nd hit),..., then 1,017,850 after the chain is over.

The display below the GP counter should show the scores underlined in the "tableau", so that players should have a rough guess of the points that a chain is worth. My central problem was that I was trying to double-check the formula by looking at the scores in the display, but without tabulating the single steps in the summation. So, I had the impression that the formula on the wiki was partially incorrect.

[wiNteR]

I guess that the answer to your question would be (i) at first glance, though I am sure which score (ii) stands for: I am probably getting confused in re-reading the messages so far.

Nevermind about option (ii). For calculating the score in the "GP" bar option (i) is how it goes.

Edit:
I read your post and the (very) small experiment I did below seems to agree with what you wrote.

One thing though. Apparently it seems that, in the actual score indicator, in addition to "GP score" some other score is added too [which is perhaps based on enemy type and just a simple addition, but this is just a rather unchecked guess on my part].


========

I haven't played donpachi in last number of years. However, there is something that is confusing me a bit. For example, At the beginning of 1-1 I tested the following:
---- destroy 1 heli in a chain (GP is updated to 130 and score goes to 140)
---- destroy 2 heli in a chain (GP is updated to 390 and score goes to 410)
---- destroy 3 heli in a chain (GP is updated to 780 and score goes to 810)

The above is fine. However, when I destroy 3 helis in a chain the GP is updated 130, 390 and 780 after 1,2,3 helis are destroyed respectively. That seems to imply that the game calculates the current "hit number" and takes it as a tentative value for final chain and updates the GP.

Further, the score is also updated to 140, 410, 810 upon destroying 1,2,3 helis respectively in a 3-chain.

It isn't clear to me as to how this is consistent with what Plasmo wrote about the updating of GP (or perhaps score) below while explaining the 17,850 chain. Sorry if I have misunderstood something here.

The actual score progression for each individual hit looks like this. There are no multipliers at work at all, it's all mere addition.

1st Hit: 1,200
2nd Hit: 130+1,200
3rd Hit: 130+130+1,200
4th Hit: 130+130+130+1,200
5th Hit 130+130+130+130+1,200
6th Hit: 130+130+130+130+130+1,200
7th Hit: 130+130+130+130+130+130+1,200
8th Hit: 130+130+130+130+130+130+130+1,200
9th Hit: 130+130+130+130+130+130+130+130+1,200
10th Hit: 130+130+130130++130+130+130+130+130+1,200

[Randorama]

The "Plasmo tableau" should not include the multipliers, so something should be missing, I guess.

This is why I re-wrote the tableau, in order to be sure that we had all the factors for the points coming from the chains. However, your report shows that something else is added: 10 points per helicopter, I guess. I admit that I never noticed those points (!). More in general, after a player starts a chain, more sources of score are computed in the score value. The GP value only shows points assigned via chains.

Regarding the current "hit number": the engine starts computing the number of hits any time that the ship hits and destroys an "object" (e.g. a tank's turret, worth 60 points). As long as the ship hits another object within 0.5 seconds, then the hit number and the GP are updated, and updates occur again as long as the player can keep the chain going (e.g. tank turret (0.3 seconds)==>tank core (0.2 seconds)==>2nd tank turret (0.2 seconds) ==> 2nd tank core (0.6 seconds, chain breaks) ==X 3rd tank turret (new chain starts).

Once the chain is broken, the last computed value becomes "final", at least until a new chain starts (is the part above clear?). Stars can be used to extend chains: hit some apparent "open space", reveal a star on the ground, extend the hit number. How stars contribute points is something that the wiki explains well, so I'd prefer not to mention it in this post just to keep it short.

[Plasmo]

The above is fine. However, when I destroy 3 helis in a chain the GP is updated 130, 390 and 780 after 1,2,3 helis are destroyed respectively. That seems to imply that the game calculates the current "hit number" and takes it as a tentative value for final chain and updates the GP.

Further, the score is also updated to 140, 410, 810 upon destroying 1,2,3 helis respectively in a 3-chain.

The extra 10 points each have nothing to do with the chain (hence these points are not displayed in the in-game GP window) but are merely due to tickpoints. If you are interested in the score you get from the chain alone, never look at your actual score counter, only look at the GP display.

The GP display only shows the total gain of the entire chain you have earned up to this point.

[Jack Emerson]

Is DoDonPachi (not resurrection or DOJ) currently available for any modern platform, either sold individually or as a bundle? Are our only real options SAT/PS1 and emulation?

[BulletMagnet]

Unless I'm forgetting an old mobile phone port or something, the only other option I'm aware of is the unlockable version from Instant Brain on the 360, so not exactly ideal either.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Emulation is the only real option to play DDP, unless you're fortunate to have access to the arcade release. The PS1 and Saturn ports are not considered arcade perfect, and the Instant Brain port is behind a visual novel and apparently a very barebones port. Why it's not included as a full featured Instant Brain + DDP dual release port or something is beyond me.

Before emulation existed the ports were probably a fine way to scratch your itch when you couldn't get the real deal in the arcade but apparently have issues with lacking slowdown and so forth.

[Unlucky7]

Is Strikers 1945 Plus worth playing over Strikers 1945 II? I heard that the former was an enhanced version of the latter.

[BulletMagnet]

I'm not a series expert, but if memory serves Plus is considered one of the weaker Strikers games (and IIRC is its own game, not an "enhanced" version, though I could be wrong), while II is a common top pick, so off the cuff I'd be inclined to recommend trying II first, if you can only play one.

[pegboy]

1945 plus is a remixed version of 1945 ii released on neogeo. More like a downgrade despite the name and while I still like i1946 plus, 1945 ii is the far superior game.

[Steven]

What are some good games to try no shooting runs other Karous on easy? Hishouzame comes to mind, but I'm not sure about that wall of planes after the last boss, especially because the boss will still be there when they appear if you don't destroy it in time.

[BulletMagnet]

If memory serves Ikaruga can be cleared without shooting, and even gives a "Dot Eater!" message at the end of a stage cleared in "pacifist mode".

[Steven]

Oh yeah, Ikaruga is definitely possible without shooting. Forgot about that one. I don't think I have ever made it past stage 3 even with shooting though.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I'm not a series expert, but if memory serves Plus is considered one of the weaker Strikers games (and IIRC is its own game, not an "enhanced" version, though I could be wrong), while II is a common top pick, so off the cuff I'd be inclined to recommend trying II first, if you can only play one.

The Psikyo jamma pcb of Strikers 1945 II is regarded as an arcade stg classic within the Psikyo arcade pcb collection. Of course, Psikyo did the Neo-Geo MVS port of "Strikers 1945 Plus" themselves with it's 4:3 based verizontal format (a slight departure from it's 4:3 tate cousin with the S-1945 II pcb) but still a fun arcade stg romp, Neo-Geo MVS style, nevertheless.

Tips 'N' Tricks magazine had an arcade strategy guide on how to master "Strikers 1945 Plus" back in the day (which was a rare sight to see, let alone for an arcade stg release in the USA). I saw it one day listed for purchase in the magazine rack aisle at work and bought it. Fascinating read as it is. There was a time when you could buy a barebones geniune MVS cart of "S-1945 P" for about $60-$70 usd back in 2003-2004 timeline -- sadly, those days of getting one "on the cheap" are long gone.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[BulletMagnet]

Oh yeah, Ikaruga is definitely possible without shooting. Forgot about that one. I don't think I have ever made it past stage 3 even with shooting though.

I don't know it for a fact, but if you're looking for other "pacifist-friendly" shooters you might want to look into titles with a heavy focus on some kind of "grazing" mechanic, like Psyvariar or Shikigami no Shiro; I'd be inclined to guess that they might work.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Oh yeah, Ikaruga is definitely possible without shooting. Forgot about that one. I don't think I have ever made it past stage 3 even with shooting though.

I don't know it for a fact, but if you're looking for other "pacifist-friendly" shooters you might want to look into titles with a heavy focus on some kind of "grazing" mechanic, like Psyvariar or Shikigami no Shiro; I'd be inclined to guess that they might work.

The Taito G-Card of Psyvariar Revision (running on the Taito G-Net arcade motherboard pcb) has a game mode that allow you to watch the last superplay video saved to the cart itself for posterity (shown in real time) and then allows you play it/try it yourself. How cool is that? Success Corp. went the "extra mile" to implement the superplay functionality with Psy-R G-Card indeed + limited online ranking that closed at the end of December of 2000 (via personalized passcode issued at the end your gaming run). The Taito G-Card of Psyvariar Medium Unit doesn't have this cool feature/option whatsoever.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Steven]

What video scaling options does City Connection Dragon Blaze have?

[cody]

What video scaling options does City Connection Dragon Blaze have?

The ps4 version doesn't have scaling options.
4 rotations in 90 degrees, 3 screen filter options (pixel, vaseline, scanlines), wallpaper.
Not sure if the steam version is different, but it's $5 right now.

[Steven]

What video scaling options does City Connection Dragon Blaze have?

The ps4 version doesn't have scaling options.
4 rotations in 90 degrees, 3 screen filter options (pixel, vaseline, scanlines), wallpaper.
Not sure if the steam version is different, but it's $5 right now.

Is it at least possible to remove the wallpaper?

[jehu]

What video scaling options does City Connection Dragon Blaze have?

The ps4 version doesn't have scaling options.
4 rotations in 90 degrees, 3 screen filter options (pixel, vaseline, scanlines), wallpaper.
Not sure if the steam version is different, but it's $5 right now.

Is it at least possible to remove the wallpaper?

Hell yeah it's possible.

That's what I like to call 'feature rich.'