Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhander?

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Noba
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Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhander?

Post by Noba »

Post title wouldn't let me include more examples, but I also mean shmups such as Alltynex Second, Einhander, Nanostray 1/2 (to a lesser extent, I know people don't like this one) etc.

I also apologise if this is the wrong area, feel free to delete or move if so.

You can skip the next paragraph if you'd like, apologies that the title wasn't descriptive enough.

Some of you might remember when I posted a kinda shoddy shmup with a single boss for Windows, made in GameMaker Studio 2. At the time, it was my first game, and I was really proud of it, yet while looking back on it nowadays I'm... Not as much of a fan.

I've been craving shmups such as Einhander, Alltynex Second, etc lately, shmups where the focus is less on danmaku style patterns (though I still love these games) and more on things like unique mechanics such as Einhanders weapon stealing, Alltynex having your ship turn into a mech with swords, etc, the levels having a physical layout rather than just a background, etc.

I really lack the descriptive capabilities and coherency to really get across what I'm trying to say, but hopefully more skilled people than me will know what I'm talking about.

So, here's this post! I'm currently in university learning C++ and 3D development, and during my 6 month break I'd really like to work on a large scale project like this, and create a couple of stages to gauge interest.

Would anyone be interested in a shmup like this? I'd only really like to make it if there's interest, and I'm not as interested in making shmups like Danmaku Unlimited, Touhou, etc. I'm especially inspired by Einhander as it never got the sequel or remaster it so rightly deserves.
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SolDirix
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by SolDirix »

The big reason you don't see a lot of modern 3D shmups is because even with all the technology we have today, most game engines cannot handle processing 5,000+ 3D bullets moving and performing sphere collision detections without massive amounts of optimization, instanced rendering, and culling. That is a lot of effort for a niche genre that doesn't make big returns in general.

Not to mention, many modern engines prefer to use delta time rather than using a fixed timestep, which is what shmups need to ensure bullet patterns remain consistent. And because delta time is so popular, It's very hard to find game programmers that know how to limit things to 60 fps without turning on vsync or slowing down time whenever a spiral of death happens. It's more involved than you think.

Unreal Engine 4 for example is especially slow and requires a ton of optimizing for making shmups. I know this from experience (Maybe 5 is faster at it? Hell if I know). Most modern game engines like Unreal Engine are made specifically with vanilla FPS games in mind, and not processing all the activity you would find in a shmup.

Making your own 3D game engine nowadays is a monumental waste of time, as you simply cannot catch up with all the modern ones in terms of tech. It's good for learning and honing your skills though.
Doing things is important.
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Noba
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by Noba »

SolDirix wrote:Gonna quote and snip this because I'm not sure if there's a tag feature
While I know what you mean and see what you're trying to say, I'm not sure what this entirely has to do with what the topic is specifically asking for - From what I remember, shmups like Alltynex and Einhander did not have a ton of bullets. While they could on the later levels, the focus in these games was not about bullet hell style patterns.

I really can't see them being hard to program in modern engines, and there was no talk about me wanting to make my own engine, really. Unity or Unreal will work just fine.

I think you're reading this as me asking about the tech behind it and why they're no longer around, while I'm simply asking if a game made in the style of an old shmup like Einhander rather than the new ones that are more popular like Do Don Pachi (which has a bigger focus on score, crazy bullet patterns and no collidable level terrain) would be popular if it was released today, with that sort of gameplay, that's all.

To be honest, while I'm sure you were trying to help your reply came off as a little patronising.
Last edited by Noba on Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ark
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by Ark »

Yes,
there would be some person interested in a shmup like what you are describing. Einhander is one of the few recognized shmups made during the Ps1 days.
Mechs are still some what popular, maybe not as much as they use to be, and there have been games such as Zero Ranger that have used swords and mixed genres such as
Nier Automata and Astebreed and Strania -The Stella Machina . What it really comes down to is execution, trends come and go, if your idea has enough familiarity to some the games you mention
there will always be an audience. There are people who want to see another Zone of Enders game, ArmorCore game, and even a Virtual On, so yeah there is an audience of that genre style.
An old classic game that was more sword based was Lords of Thunder.

As for colliding backgrounds R type Final 2 did well for itself with modern software update, just look at their Kickstarter, of course name recognition helps.

How big is the audience? We won't know till somebody tries. I think it comes back to making something that is fun, you already mention the games as templates.
The question is can a person make a masterpiece (Einhander) from a masterpiece and market it well. Even Streets of Rage made a comeback after 20 plus years, and Hydorah is a Gradius style game that
did well. So yeah, in any genre whats old can be new again. Not everybody likes the same style of game, and even if they do it's not the only style they like.

It all comes back to how well a person makes his or hers game.
Good luck
Noba
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by Noba »

Ark wrote:Yes,
there would be some person interested in a shmup like what you are describing. Einhander is one of the few recognized shmups made during the Ps1 days.
Mechs are still some what popular, maybe not as much as they use to be, and there have been games such as Zero Ranger that have used swords and mixed genres such as
Nier Automata and Astebreed and Strania -The Stella Machina . What it really comes down to is execution, trends come and go, if your idea has enough familiarity to some the games you mention
there will always be an audience. There are people who want to see another Zone of Enders game, ArmorCore game, and even a Virtual On, so yeah there is an audience of that genre style.
An old classic game that was more sword based was Lords of Thunder.
Thank you so much for the in depth reply!! I can't believe I forgot about Astebreed and Zeroranger. Those are other great examples. Another game that comes to mind is Ether Vapor Remaster.
ark wrote: As for colliding backgrounds R type Final 2 did well for itself with modern software update, just look at their Kickstarter, of course name recognition helps.
Rtype Final 2 is again another great example. I love how it handled this - terrain could still kill you, but you don't tiptoe around with a fear of walls. A nice middle ground might be to have easier difficulties handle like Rtype, and harder difficulties handle like Einhander, where running into a wall for too long kills you.

The goal here is absolutely to make something new while echoing back to them with my own unique mechanics and gameplay, etc. I'll just have to brainstorm some ideas and see what comes up, but that's the idea behind sharing some stages here.

Newer bullet hells seem to be so abundant nowadays (which isn't a bad thing) that I was scared a shmup with this style of gameplay would have had no place, but if games like Rtype can do it, I guess anything is possible if you know what you're doing.

Is there a name for these specific types of shmups by the way? Maybe that would have helped my explanation more.
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heli
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by heli »

You asked in the right forum : i think we all want it 100% agree.
Good you learn C++ keep up the good work.
Dont expect to sell any einhander games.

Unreal and Unity engines change with updates, and you can not change the engine,
you load a whole 3D all inclusive engine, while 2D is not so complex.
If you compile a C++ program : unused code is not included.
Further i agree with Soldirix post.

If you get stuck maybe someone can help you here, keep posting progression.
Ark
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by Ark »

I don't know if there is a specific name, but there are different series of games.

Horizontal Shooters tend to have a lot of the elements you mention.
Gradius series/ Darius series / Thunderforce series / R-Type series/
Old school style shooters also have these elements.

EuroShmups have some of these elements, but they tend to add a little too
much or too little of others things (my opinion).

These guys have a strong passion for shmups and can give you an idea
on what games they enjoy from there perspectives/ Electric Underground and Shmup Junkie
and the reviews from Bullet Heaven. You may also get a better idea just from the comments below
some of their presentations on persons thoughts and interests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oILqoTQzXIU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSIckuBTfZc

What ever you work on, scope and time will be a factor on anything, as you are aware Einhander was made by Square Enix.
You just have to prototype to get an idea on what you are willing and capable to do for the short term and the long term.
Then multiply the time and effort your willing to work by 2 or 3 and also factors in life. I think the most important thing is
to care about what you want to make and use the resources you feel comfortable to get the job done. Its a mental game.

Good Luck
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o.pwuaioc
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by o.pwuaioc »

Some of us do in fact prefer classic shooter styles to modern danmaku/bullet hell games. The latter aren't for everyone.

That said, 3D shmups are actually. Pixel art is king for shooters. Dunno if that's too far out of your purview.
Noba
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by Noba »

o.pwuaioc wrote:Some of us do in fact prefer classic shooter styles to modern danmaku/bullet hell games. The latter aren't for everyone.

That said, 3D shmups are actually. Pixel art is king for shooters. Dunno if that's too far out of your purview.
I know what you mean! Pixel art definitely looks nicer more often, I mainly want to try 3D for 2 reasons:

I've never made a 3D game to completion. I've made enough that I'm comfortable developing it, but never completed one.

I'm really bad at pixel art spaceships. Trust me, I've tried plenty of times. :(

I was thinking of trying for a style like a PS1 game, but not sure if that'll be too cliché.
Johngalindo
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Re: Is there interest in modern takes of shmups like Einhand

Post by Johngalindo »

Yes, there would be some person interested in a shmup like what you are describing. Einhander is one of the few recognized shmups made during the Ps1 days. there will always be an audience.
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