shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:05 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:29 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 27 May 2016
Posts: 29
I'm done. Peace.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 5662
Peace out froggy ^_^

I'll be taking my leave too

Image
_________________
RegalSin wrote:
Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.

Aeon Zenith - My STG.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 21
@masterfrog

The game's ok, it's pretty competent for the most part. I have a personal hatred for graphical infidelity (rotating, scaling, transparency) graphics, but besides, it looked ok for a retro-styled meteor defense remake.

If I had to point out some things I didn't like, then uh.

Gameplay could use more things to do. For an experimental shmup it's both an idea that is really old (Missile Command) and also less fun to play when it really only requires paying attention to one dimension of movement, with a total of 2 directions and a firing button that is best always held down and faded into subconsciousness. Enemies don't do much, even bosses. As long as you're trailing under one, you're good. That and some enemies aren't really possible to hit. It feels like it's a crapshoot whether the default angled bullets will hit an asteroid or if it will slip through and at times you have to rely on the fact that it must.

Also back to graphics, when playing it, I thought it'd be nice if it had more going on. Maybe the background could have parallax scrolling to convey more motion feedback? Maybe it could actually progress horizontally to convey a sense of progress. With the screen remaining so static, for so long, it was really losing a lot of energy very quickly, in what was already relatively uninvolved play.

Overall, I think it's an ok little game, better suited for quiet passage of time, I think it could work well as a handheld app.
_________________
AN AWESOME PRAYER IS IN CONFLICT WITH US.

KEEP YOUR DIGNITY.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:37 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2011
Posts: 2231
Skipping perfectly valid points and questions from the opposing side just because of an insult here or there, is the opposite of intelligent or constructive discussion. It might make the discussion hurtful to your feelings, it might make it more entertaining to others, but it in no way discredits the arguments that come with them.

This happens quite often, but I'm sure that in your case too it's just an escape ladder away from difficulty.
_________________
I miss the hype-days of saidaioujou.


Last edited by Cagar on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:44 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Posts: 973
"im not gonna respond to you if you hurt my feelings!!!"

*has a dozen posts in a thread dedicated to belittling everyone*
_________________
ImageImage
my blog mostly about stgs, progress etc.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 7:28 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 4618
Location: Finland
I pity the guy. Had he come to the forums asking earnestly "Hey guys, why do you like this genre that's apparently so outdated?" rather than stating "Shmups are shit, here's why" he might have learned something. As it is, it was just time spent in an unconstructive way for all parties involved.
_________________
No matter how good a game is, somebody will always hate it. No matter how bad a game is, somebody will always love it.

My videos
Rolling Start!! - Arcade Racing Game Forum


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 7:47 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2011
Posts: 2231
Yeah.
Cagar wrote:
Things would've gone better if you approached this from an angle like 'The problem with shmups as a genre for mass audience', not from 'Guys what you like is wrong and problematic, I don't like current shmups'.

but I got the feeling that this might not have been a matter of approach after all, since he seemed to be stuck with the latter option.
_________________
I miss the hype-days of saidaioujou.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:15 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 354
Location: South Florida
WE NEED UBER BUT FOR SHMUPS

#DISRUPT SHMUPS

FREEK EVIN


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Oct 2014
Posts: 1283
No love for moomins?
_________________
Kill the Past / Suda 51 fansite and more | Favorite artwork selection from manuals | My music


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:32 am 


User avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2009
Posts: 918
Location: Southeast USA
Swinging this back to the dev side -

Being very generous and assuming the OP is actually being genuine here, this is the kind of bile you USE to craft the game you want out of a mass of ones you dislike. That's the magic of negative inspiration. Put it to work, just bitching doesn't do you any good (especially in this peculiarly aggressive and confrontational manner.)

You can even prove your criticisms' validity by actually utilizing them to make something excellent - then it definitely doesn't matter whether you perfectly measure up to established genre dogma or whatever. :P
_________________
Fire Arrow Plus is out on Steam!
Itch.io page - Gamedev blog


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:07 pm 



Joined: 26 Dec 2014
Posts: 73
Hey,

Shmup genre is not dead.
I have been with Vortex Attack to so many fairs (about 20) and people really really enjoy these games, they just are not used to the genre anymore. I don't want to spam at all so I will not post any videos of lots of people having great time with Vortex Attack in fairs, but you can google it if you like :)

So... if they enjoy them ... what's the problem?
They are all arcade, and arcade games can be finished in just about 1h if you are good enough, and nowadays sales are based in the gameplay hours.
Have you ever wondered why darius cs has over a hundred levels? Doesn't matter if they are all extremelly similar, the fact is that it is feeding gameplay hours, again, that's all it matters now.
But guess what? Indies passionate about shmups will keep making new ones, regardles if they are sellable or not. :wink:

Cheers!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 01 Oct 2014
Posts: 7
Location: Portugal
i don’t know if i arrived here too late, as i'm seeing some people leaving and etc.

what i think is that we really need to ask developers to surprise us, asking them to be like Oohara Yuuma, Kenta Cho, Tetsuya Mizuguchi, etc., perhaps asking them to surprise us more than these ones did.

and as developers, perhaps we might ask ourselves exactly the same thing, we really need to think totally out of the box, there is still a lot to be done in the shmup genre - i'm seeing that, even after some decades, the shmups history is still in the very beginning


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:35 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 381
It looks like the conversation in this thread is pretty much over. But I'll just add that the original post made me laugh because I thought it was being satirical. I was thinking, "it's refreshing to have someone with a sense of humor." But ya, if the guy was being serious, there is probably a better venue to dismiss shmups as a genre than the shmups forum. Maybe he should try an RPG forum or something? ;-)
_________________
https://soundcloud.com/user-306325657
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0Fwhz ... 4yC3Isd4Lg


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:38 am 



Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 20
Ah damn looks like this is over! I wish I saw this earlier! I actually had exactly the same problem with shmups and that's why I've spent the last few years making a shmup with RPG elements, to add some depth to the basic vertical shooter gameplay. So many shmups have awesome gameplay - it's just the depth they lack. (That's a problem with many genres today actually I guess.) But also, as everyone here points out, that lack of depth is just a problem for some people - each to their own. Some of the best games in the world are super simple. And just slapping on some 'depth' elements (more complex scoring, RPG character progression, non linear game progression, etc) doesn't necessarily improve a game. The whole thing needs to be thought through and designed carefully so that all those different elements integrate. I'm still not sure if I got it right; here's hoping!

Anybody interested in checking out the game, it's called Cosmonator; basically a shmup with lots of RPG elements (spells, special abilities, tons of upgrades etc). I've created a post in this site with some info about the production progress also, but anyway here's a link to the free demo for anyone who's interested in checking it out:

https://bourbontank.itch.io/cosmonator

The full game is on steam, in Early Access. If you're into shmups but you think they could use some added depth, like the frogmaster here - particularly in terms of RPG style player progression - well, you'll probably like it, because that's exactly what it addresses.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:20 am 


User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1118
Location: Gurmany
AgileMaster wrote:
Ah damn looks like this is over! I wish I saw this earlier! I actually had exactly the same problem with shmups and that's why I've spent the last few years making a shmup with RPG elements, to add some depth to the basic vertical shooter gameplay. So many shmups have awesome gameplay - it's just the depth they lack. (That's a problem with many genres today actually I guess.) But also, as everyone here points out, that lack of depth is just a problem for some people - each to their own. Some of the best games in the world are super simple. And just slapping on some 'depth' elements (more complex scoring, RPG character progression, non linear game progression, etc) doesn't necessarily improve a game. The whole thing needs to be thought through and designed carefully so that all those different elements integrate. I'm still not sure if I got it right; here's hoping!

Anybody interested in checking out the game, it's called Cosmonator; basically a shmup with lots of RPG elements (spells, special abilities, tons of upgrades etc). I've created a post in this site with some info about the production progress also, but anyway here's a link to the free demo for anyone who's interested in checking it out:

https://bourbontank.itch.io/cosmonator

The full game is on steam, in Early Access. If you're into shmups but you think they could use some added depth, like the frogmaster here - particularly in terms of RPG style player progression - well, you'll probably like it, because that's exactly what it addresses.


I would say that for most shmups the depth comes from the scoring system. It can get pretty in depth if you are min-maxing stuff like where to use resources and which routes to take etc.

There are some shmups that have some RPG like elements, Radiant Silvergun for example, the way it upgrades the weapons the more you use them.

IMO it all depends what you want to focus on as a game developer. There is a reason why Cave removed power-ups from their last couple of games, and before that removed power-loss at death. It lets them focus on the scoring aspect more as well as go more all out from the get go, since the player is already fully powered up.

The question should always be what any given feature adds to the game, does picking up items that do nothing but power up your shot (as in not switch to different shots like in R-Type) add anything to a bullet-hell style shmup (or other sub-genres too, in Fire Lancer we also don't have power-ups for example) where the focus is on scoring? I would say that in most cases it probably does not.

When it comes to RPG like systems, and even if they are as simple as the weapon selection in Axelay, the question is in which way the different weapons add to the game, and you have to make sure that there is not a combo of weapons that will be the best in most, if not all, cases. Because if that is the case you made extra work for yourself which does add very little to the game. You do not want to add content for the sake of content. Same with depth just for the same of it.

Just my 2 cents.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The problem with shmups as a genre.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:35 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
Ebbo wrote:
While I do agree with some of your sentiments, your mindset comes off being rather shallow and misguided. Pretty much any genre can be reduced to "wiggling between colorful orbs" without a proper understanding. If you really think shoot'em ups haven't evolved at all during the past decades, it just makes me wonder what kind of games you've been playing then?

Slapping RPG elements into a game does not automatically equal more appealing experience and it's not like some shmups haven't tried it with varying levels of success. Actually those hybrid games you mentioned already exist - games such as Enter the Gungeon and Binding of Isaac mix shooter and rogue elements and have find critical and commercial success. But that doesn't mean "pure shmups" should either disappear or assimilate themselves with other genres completely since they offer different experience from their roguelite counterparts.

All that being said I do believe shmups have a lot of room left for improvement and growth as well especially when it comes to accessibility. How to convey concepts such as creditfeeding, 1cc and scoring to new generation of players? I'm sure these kind of amendments can be done without alienating old players altogether.


I agree.

Also, there is something to be said for a simple game which requires skill and maneuvering with a quantifiable score to gauge performance against others. Like Viewpoint, or R-type, or UN squadron etc. A lot of the latest generation of games require less skill and feel more like you are moving something through a bad movie. And once the movie ends, there is little reason to play it again.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group