GUNVIXEN

[rtw]

Including the diagonal speed compensation that is in all cave games, which I was surprised to discover.

Could you describe what the diagonal speed compensation is in a bit more detail ?

[trap15]

Yeah, do you mean you're using "additive" diagonals?

[jandrogo]

WoW, looks really great!

[colour_thief]

I think he just means using 1 / 2^(1/2) the additive distance to keep the speed constant.

[pixelcorps]

Including the diagonal speed compensation that is in all cave games, which I was surprised to discover.

Could you describe what the diagonal speed compensation is in a bit more detail ?

Basically, I discovered that when I was using the same variable for X,Y and diagonal movement, the diagonal angle was completely wrong in comparison to your average cave STG.

a lot of STG devs would instantly assume that, if a player object moving at 1 pixel per tick for example pressing down right on the controller would logically be +1 on the X and Y position. this would logically be a 45 degree angle

This is actually not the case on cave games, (it may be the same with other games too) diagonal movement is actually a different variable that allows for more vertical travel upwards which is closer to around 30 degrees or less.

I don`t have the exact variables to hand as I am in the office at present, but basically its kinda like this.. interesting huh?

[pixelcorps]

Robo girls <3

And yeah, I don't see anything wrong with the movement at all.

Wow though, quality music, art, and programming? You're seriously talented.

Lol, wow, cheers! ,I`ve just had a LOT of experience in game dev (since `89) and have a slightly OCD obsession for doing things "right" - I actually had a producer at a major RPG devco give me some rather disparaging "ORLY" type comments about me being multidisciplined only a few days ago..like basically calling me a liar in a not very nuanced way..

[trap15]

Which games are you referencing for the angles? The PGM games (Ketsui, DOJ, Espgaluda) have a pixel aspect of 1:2, and the games do no aspect correction. So the odd behavior is due to that.

[pixelcorps]

well, they all seem to do it, I've been looking at esprade initially, I guess I would need to compare at contrast with others, but I don't have time at present.. no biggie really, its just variables that can be changed on a whim as I say..

[n0rtygames]

just multiply by (1/sqrt(2))



Done properly and you'll get the same effect as per cave games where holding diagonal against a screen edge will cause you to move slower.

Sounds like you might be overthinking this issue a bit. Assuming you're working 1:1 there's no reason to mess with or question Mr Pythagoras.

[n0rtygames]

Also, just to add - don't feel obligated to emulate Cave. If you must, I would strongly urge you to look at some of their less popular/less played stuff. Esprade, mushi original modes, guwange etc etc. Cave -- love 'em or hate 'em -- operate on the same principles as any other good stg developer.

- Good satisfying explosions
- Lots of shooting

Then they basically whack a zillion bullets in your face with lots of pretty mathematical patterns.

Basically, I discovered that when I was using the same variable for X,Y and diagonal movement, the diagonal angle was completely wrong in comparison to your average cave STG.

Most won't make this assumption btw. It's pretty standard knowledge, it really comes down to personal preference. A lot of non-cave games just do +1 to each axis when the switch is hit.

This discussion actually came up when xyx was released - there was quite a long chat about how unwieldy the ship was. I guess if you're going to be zipping around the screen at lightning speeds then that 1:1 movement on the diagonals can feel pretty bizarre.

But, there are some very reputable shmups (Such as -that- one rated #1 shmup of all time several years running on this very forum) that don't do it the "cave way".

Personally I like those adjusted diagonals though.

List of stupid requests that you will (and probably should) ignore all based on fond memories of playing games or watching others in the community playing games

- powerups
- rank/central value being core to everything (this one is sensible)
- hidden rank value
- destructable parts on enemies
- player explosions that kill enemies
- element of frustration
- hilarious accidents where the player must choose between breaking chain or surviving
- bombs
- bombs that reveal secret things
- fixed extends
- gameplay based on 2 buttons with no 'chords'
- bombs that stall timers
- timers that stall on dying
- cap player lives
- cheesy voice over
- 90s anime
- lots of violence
- best game ever

[Mr Halibut]

He's not talking about just normalizing the diagonal direction vector, he's saying the angle is weighted more towards vertical than horizontal, i.e. more like 30 degrees from vertical, not 45. I certainly never noticed that before, and if it's true then I'm now blaming it for all my deaths in Cave games.

[BPzeBanshee]

Yeah outside Cave it hasn't always been very consistent. For example I believe in Raiden DX 1P side has greater vertical speed and 2P has greater horizontal speed, or something along those lines.

[n0rtygames]

He's not talking about just normalizing the diagonal direction vector, he's saying the angle is weighted more towards vertical than horizontal, i.e. more like 30 degrees from vertical, not 45. I certainly never noticed that before, and if it's true then I'm now blaming it for all my deaths in Cave games.

No, he isn't. Trap actually explained what it was he was likely talking about and it's gone ignored.



I'm afraid that stuff is being made up.

Basing your movement on something that could very likely be visual weirdness because of non square pixels - when you are in fact going to be working with 1:1 square pixels would be incredibly stupid. Just fix the movement if you need to!

Don't make a Cave game - we've got those. We've got Crimson Clover made by a talented programmer and world record holder on multiple Cave titles. Just make a good solid shooter out of love and take it in your own direction.

Keep in mind bullet hell != Cave.

Possible things:

- A specific ship in a certain game is behaving strangely
- Perhaps when lasering movement is weird
- Banking animation of ship makes it look strange to the eye

[emphatic]

My 2 cents. If you wanna do a CAVE style game, do it. Just don't do a game that misses the mark you aim for.

[pixelcorps]

well, right now it controls exactly like the 1st character in esprade when both windows are run side by side. I dont have any screencapping geaer to post proof.

once I have more stuff in to actually judge the feel of the game I can start playing with control tuning.

I'll be back when I have something more substanial to show.

[n0rtygames]

well, right now it controls exactly like the 1st character in esprade when both windows are run side by side. I dont have any screencapping geaer to post proof.

Just mash screenshot a few times in mame and regardless of how you've got your display set up it'll actually pump it out at the correct size and aspect ratio, then you can overlay a protractor on top in photoshop and put out a simple frame animation.

Like I said, it's mostly the banking animations - because to be perfectly honest when I fired it up right now and I was moving down+diagonally I thought "Huh, maybe he's right". Interesting visual effect because of the angles used in the art and gives a nice feeling, so good work Cave.

However, mathematically speaking - it's exactly the same.

(Haven't checked the other characters but assuming you meant the default dude on the left that got auto selected while I was setting up my buttons)

[n0rtygames]

Also just to add I happen to know from experience that getting a visual focal point on the character if you're not using glowing hitboxes when you are trying to portray a flying humanoid is EXTREMELY hard compared to a ship.

In fact, when doing pixel art its downright frustrating because a lot of time can be sunk in to the art only to realize "shit, this doesn't look right"

Ships often let you get away with a hybrid of top down and angled shots -- but its harder to convey the proper sense of motion when you use humanoids.

You are sane for using renders :0)

[Squire Grooktook]

^^^That's exactly why I asked my artist to draw a dragon for the player character instead of a person for the fantasy shmup we're working on. When done right, humanoids can look great, but it's really hard to get it aestheticly pleasing (most shmups don't IMO, they're either too small, too chibby, or the perspective makes em look like their lying down in mid air or just a little head and shoulders waddling around, both of which look awful IMO) and looking right in terms of movement and gameplay. Didn't want to end up asking him to redraw the same sprite ten thousand times lol.

Back on topic: the player character here looks great, but I'd go with the good old Pythagoras for diagonals. I like Battle Garegga as much as the next guy, but I don't like funky diagonals that don't work the way diagonals should work.

[rfeese]

I agree with what nortygames is saying but I just realized that it is a little more complicated than that. Yes, the ship/player appears to be moving at a 45 degree angle relative to the screen but at the same time, the background (and I believe other objects) are shifting to the side. I am wondering how the math actually works out here in terms of "world" coordinates in the 2-d plane in which the sprites are moving. Anyone know how this is typically done in these games? Does the player typically move at a constant speed relative to the screen coordinates and then other items are just panned the appropriate amount side-to-side based on the player's screen position?

[n0rtygames]

I agree with what nortygames is saying but I just realized that it is a little more complicated than that. Yes, the ship/player appears to be moving at a 45 degree angle relative to the screen but at the same time, the background (and I believe other objects) are shifting to the side. I am wondering how the math actually works out here in terms of "world" coordinates in the 2-d plane in which the sprites are moving. Anyone know how this is typically done in these games? Does the player typically move at a constant speed relative to the screen coordinates and then other items are just panned the appropriate amount side-to-side based on the player's screen position?

It's not that complex. But some games do it differently. A bit of simple math will allow you to convert screen space to world space and vice versa. The main thing is to separate what you see on screen and what happens in terms of game physics/logic.

First, have a camera of sorts. Your camera only needs to consist of a 2d vector. Since you asked about the math, if your objects in game all have a world position coordinate then rendering on to the screen is as simple as:

screenpos = worldpos - camerapos;

The player ship is one of those things that can quite easily live in screen space actually, also all my calculations for collision happen in screen space. Everything else is based in worldspace coordinates.

The items themselves are not panned, the 'camera' just moves - the player is not coupled to it. Rendering position changes.

For achieving certain effects there is a bit of mixing between screen space/world space for the sake of simple code (e.g repeating tiling far parallax layer may only ever need to live in screen space but rendered behind everything else) and sometimes it might make sense to work with screen space for your collisions.

The only difference using a camera is that you end up with your coordinates being slightly different (usually) for reasons that will become immediately obvious when you actually start working with this approach.

[pixelcorps]

Almost there with stage 1 background, wanna get it done before christmas so I can start flattening up the layers and getting stuff chopped up to go in the game.. Full size image is 9000 pixels high, 720p, PSD is getting brutally heavy and will break 4GB before its finished...



Also the whole compensated direction thing?? Yes, I'm an idiot, my scrolling camera and character positioning relative to the camera was reducing the Y movement so I was stupidly compensating for it, and made my assumptions from there.. sorry..

Also, Title has been announced, and I now have a twitter account, mostly tweeting in japanese to build up interest on this side of the world first..

plz follow on twitter!!
https://twitter.com/gunvixen

And here's a logo with a preliminary colourway, subject to change depending on how the UI ends up..



The name was thought up ages ago, but wasn't giving it out til the logo was done, and I adapted the name of the exo armour the character use to VXN (Vehicular Exoskeleton Neuronet) to try and keep it cohesive, and slightly Janglish..

[emphatic]

Nice logo!

[rtw]

Thanks for the update pixelcorps, this game is getting better by the minute

The logo looks really good as well, and I can't wait to play the first stage!

[Stevens]

Love the name. Love the logo.

Keep up the great work.

[pixelcorps]

1st background and infinite boss loop scroll is finally done.. broke the engine doing it with too many tiles, and had to break the entire PSD down again differently and rebuild from scratch.

also testing in tate mode, framerate is a bit choppy at present..

Time to get the multidirectional scroll pathing a bit smoother next, then it's time for a bit of code housekeeping...

multicolour bars are debug gfx..

http://i.imgur.com/LUSIOoj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/LpOiJkh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lm2whZH.jpg

[BeardTaffy]

The game looks good so far. Awesome logo and I am really liking the background art, It's so crisp and nice!
Is there any ETA on when the game will be done? I'm just curious.

[pixelcorps]

I am doing everything myself, so it is gonna take a while.. could be 1-2 years???

[suny]

Looking better and better!
S.

[MythicalWings]

Ship fx looks good and music setup too, but a few things I notice:
* environments look very clean, a bit sterile as if the city had just been built
* laser is a lot like dodonpachi, maybe a bit too much ?
* the synth in the music is too light, I cannot hear the bassline, drums are good

[pixelcorps]

The game , graphics and music are still in development. I already mentioned the music is a beta mix, and GFX will recieve numerous beautification sweeps over time.