Best way to put N64 games on my consumer Trinitron in 480i?

[andykara2003]

Hi all,

The N64 is the only console that looks too rough for me on mt 21" consumer Trinitron. I have an NTSC Wii with WiiDual outputting RGB with the N64 VC games but those games have a slightly dark filter that takes the vibrancy out of the image - not as bad as the Wii U but still there.

What's the best alternative way to get a 480i image on the TV? I'd use a Mister, but N64 won't be coming for a good while. And it might be nice to have the ability use a little anti aliasing, so maybe a mini PC with Mupen outputting 480i through a 480i compatible VGA card? I'm very out of date with my knowledge on this stuff.

Cheers!

[Taiyaki]

Out of curiosity why are you trying to output them in 480i? Most N64 games played in 240p as far as I know. Is it because you are trying to run the games off other systems such as the Wii? If so I believe this is a known issue with the virtual console games (being darker).

[andykara2003]

You're right, it's a known issue & I'm trying for an alternative. I want to run in 480i because the N64's 240p image is awful - but looks lovely on CRT in 480i. I prefer 480i on a consumer set to 480p on a pro monitor like my old BVM as the 480p looks too blocky with the N64 to look authentic to me.

480i on a consumer Trinitron still looks authentic and smooth, but much cleaner than the original 240p without looking blocky. Some anti aliasing would make t look even cleaner which would be great.

[neorichieb1971]

I played through svideo in the early days and it blew my mind.

The darkness portraid in RGB is down to the amplifier isn't it? I read eons ago that early AES consoles had better RGB than the later ones, which raised my eyebrow because I thought it was a standard. I think only the wiring and ideology is a standard but the output can differ based on a number of factors. Sega had an extremely good rep for RGB outputs.

Watch where you go with RGB, because its deep pocket rabbit hole.

Back in the late 90's my friend bought a trinitron flat screen and svideo shined really brightly with a bit more blur, but when we put the same console (I think it was a Saturn) the picture got considerably darker with RGB, but was slightly more refined round those rough polygon edges.

The same console on a Panasonic was considerably brighter via RGB. So I think the problem with the darkness is the Trinitron.

[andykara2003]

Been down the rabbit hole and out the other side :)

There was a problem with very early N64 RGB modding where the image was too dark as there was no correct amplification involved. But that was long ago. In fact most of the better earlier mods were a touch too bright, but I'm using Etim's RGB boards, which output correct RGB levels. It's not the brightness that's the problem, it's that it's a first gen 3D console with a blurry output. Look into Phonedork's video on it if you're interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmVE-S8L774

I've tried the UltraHDMI and other solutions, but none have satisfied me, hence wanting to go with 480i on a consumer set. It's a very specific look that looks close enough to the original console without the 2D elements looking awful and sticking out like a sore thumb like they would at higher resolutions.

So yes, more of a tecnical question, probably involving a mini PC with an arcade VGA style board.

[fernan1234]

Yeah emulation will be the way to go. You could also upscale the original console's 240p to 480i with a video processor, especially a Retrotink5X but that'd be an expensive approach unless you happen to have one already. Some people will say this is a sin but I think for a system like the N64 it may not be so bad, though of course it will look much worse than an emulator that renders graphics at 480i.

Don't count on an N64 core on the MiSTer though. This has been said about other systems before that seemed impossible, but N64 is an entirely different beast. Maybe on a future more powerful platform, but not the DE10 for sure.

[andykara2003]

Thanks fernan1234 - appreciate the input :)

Yes you're right, emulation would be the way. So the question would be how to get 480i out of a small PC to a SCART TV via RGB? What card would I need & what small form factor PC would it be compatible with? Might be something I need to dig deep on myself, but maybe someone knows..

[Guspaz]

You need a 15 kHz capable video card, and possibly an old and unsupported version of Windows since I don't think you can do interlaced resolutions anymore. I think you might also be able to do it on Linux with the right setup? I hear that even if you can get it to work, GPUs are really terrible at outputting good 480i signals (as compared to 240p).

Honestly the simpler solution is to run an N64 emulator at 480p on a modern computer and downscale it to 480i in the video chain. 480p+ HDMI output from PC, HDFURY X4 to convert to 480i component, done. An Extron VSC can also make it easy, a DisplayPort to VGA adapter on the PC, going into an Extron VSC, and that will spit out 480i over RGBS, YPbPr, CVBS, or S-Video.

However, an even easier solution may be to run the N64 emulator on something that natively or easily supports analog 480i output. Like a softmodded Wii with VC injection, or a Pi 4 (may have performance issues with some games).

[Gunstar]

I think the community found a way to remove the dark filter on Wii VC games iirc? not done it myself though.

I've been using PS1 emulation to output 480i for 3D 240p games to a consumer set for the same taste reasons you have, 480p is quite revealing with assets not being able to hold up to that resolution of scrutiny but with 480i/consumer TVL it looks perfect and very reminiscent of interlaced arcade games (racing games like Ridge Racer Type 4 look like they were made for that res and none of the hud elements look bad). I'm using CRT emudriver software and an AMD 5450 (about to swap in a 260x). Some info about the best cards to get is here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... c=160776.0

[andykara2003]

Not surprising that Guspaz has the answer, thanks very much!

From all your options, it seems like softmodding my NTSC Wii and using a Wii emulator is the easiest answer as I already have it setup outputting 480i RGB via GCVideo. I've heard that the Wii's N64 emulators aren't so good though, which is why I was using the official VC games. I'll look into it.

There is another option where apparently you can remove that dark filter from the N64 VC games:

https://gbatemp.net/threads/remove-dark ... vc.605775/

It looks like they’ve also sussed out how to adjust the deflicker filter in 480i like Swiss can do on Gamecube. Looks complicated and a bit risky though! I don't have much time so maybe I need to find a softmod expert & send my console to them - probably safer too, I'd hate to screw up my GCvideo Wii..

[Bassa-Bassa]

Theoretically, the good thing of going the 15khz emulation PC way is that you get rid of everything that made N64's 240p bad - no RGB output and no actual 320x240 display resolution without blurring, so you may end up liking this over 480i at least for the games originally at 240p. For that you'll need an emulator which is not too picky with the video options, so it's possible that Retroarch is the only interface allowing you to do it. But on paper it's the best possible way of displaying a N64 game, both, interlaced or progressive, disregarding emulation quality, that is.

[Guspaz]

People inject their own roms into the N64 VC. I don't know how good accuracy is, but it's a very easy way to get 480i N64 on a TV. I think those instructions are for modifying the individual game executables?

Softmodding a Wii these days is pretty darned simple, you can find instructions for that here:

https://wii.guide/

Letterbomb is I think what people normally use? It only needs an SD card and a computer and no other special tools.

[andykara2003]

We had a madly busy day today, but it gave me a chance to collect my thoughts on exactly what I'm trying to achieve here & get clearer on my options:

Per your excellent advice, I'll be softmodding my Wii to play N64 games in 480i. But having done some research, the emulators Not64 and Wii64 can be inconsistent with patchy performance whereas Nintendo's official VC N64 games run very well. Reading around the forums, I gather this is because Nintendo made a custom version of their emulator to go with each game to guarantee consistent performance. MVG regards the Wii's N64 emulation to be very good, but taking a dive with subsequent consoles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ounQZv1MFNA&t=2s

So I'll go with the official VC versions - this suits me well as I always prefer to play official versions of Nintendo's games & I've already purchased all the N64 games I wanted. Another advantage with using official VC is that I have the excellent 'Electro modder' Wii-to-N64 controller adapter that adjusts the stick mapping from each of the different VC N64 games so the stick on the connected official N64 controller behaves exactly as it does on the original console.

https://www.electromodder.co.uk/

But that leaves just one problem left - that of the dark filter on the official VC titles. As you say, the instructions are for modifying the individual game executables for each game. I think to get the best possible outcome, I'll need to go this route - softmod the console & modify each game independently to restore full brightness. Although softmodding is simple, the process of modifying the roms seems quite involved, I'll have to do some digging to get my head around it all...

[tongshadow]

Emulation+Extron Emotia converting 480p to 480i to your TV is the way to go.

[Pikkon]

Hi all,

The N64 is the only console that looks too rough for me on mt 21" consumer Trinitron. I have an NTSC Wii with WiiDual outputting RGB with the N64 VC games but those games have a slightly dark filter that takes the vibrancy out of the image - not as bad as the Wii U but still there.

What's the best alternative way to get a 480i image on the TV? I'd use a Mister, but N64 won't be coming for a good while. And it might be nice to have the ability use a little anti aliasing, so maybe a mini PC with Mupen outputting 480i through a 480i compatible VGA card? I'm very out of date with my knowledge on this stuff.

Cheers!

I agree that 480i does look pretty good for n64.

For me I use a PC with a amd card with crt emudriver that outputs rgb to my trinitron.

[fernan1234]

Emulation+Extron Emotia converting 480p to 480i to your TV is the way to go.

A rare and expensive Emotia is among many other easier and much cheaper converters that will also do 480p to 480i. In fact you could use something that outputs 480p via HDMI and then use one of those HDMI to component converters that scales to 480i. This would also free TC from the restriction of using analogue output.

[tongshadow]

Emulation+Extron Emotia converting 480p to 480i to your TV is the way to go.

A rare and expensive Emotia is among many other easier and much cheaper converters that will also do 480p to 480i. In fact you could use something that outputs 480p via HDMI and then use one of those HDMI to component converters that scales to 480i. This would also free TC from the restriction of using analogue output.

A better immediate choice but it's always good to be on the lookout for Extron units, I recently for an Emotia for 20$, PSU included.

[orange808]

Okay. This has gone off the rails into misinformation.

The Extron VSC series units are the absolute best proper NTSC/PAL scan converters ever made.

The old Emotia units were once popular because they output 240p. Their 480i results are not as good as the later VSC units. The Emotia machines are also very old and it's difficult to find power supplies. Emotias will need maintenance and work. For all that effort, you'll never get the same quality the VSC units deliver.

Don't buy an HDFury. Don't waste tons of time and money on an Emotia. If you need a scan converter, the Extron VSC machines the best units ever made--and they aren't expensive

I should know, I have dozens of video processors.

[Guspaz]

If you don't care about cosmetic appearance and don't need component output (without an RGB2COMP anyway), and are in the US, the Extron VSC 100 is currently available on eBay for $50 USD. It can output NTSC/PAL composite, s-video, RGBS, and RGBHV. However, it will need to be paired with a DAC, since it doesn't support digital input, but since we're trying to drive a 15 kHz display here, not an FW900, any DisplayPort-to-VGA adapter should work fine with the VSC.

Just be careful because there are a lot of listings on eBay charging exorbitant prices for the VSC user manual. Like, just the paper manual. The same one you can download for free on Extron's website.

[tongshadow]

This makes me wonder: Why hasnt anyone yet made a cheap FPGA device for downconverting 640x480 or 480p sources into 480i/240p RGBS/Component/Composite?
There are tons of line multipliers but so far no downscaler that could make Extron units obsolete, and there's certainly a demand.

[Bassa-Bassa]

480p into 480i should be trivial and "cheap", but 480 into 240p which works well enough in every case (and not just for unfiltered line doubled graphics), with virtually no latency involved, I don't think that could be cheap design-wise at least. But I'd second that petition.

I wonder, is it that N64 emulation on PC is that bad still in 2023? Because it comes off a bit surprising that so many are suggesting even buying scan converters for OP's needs instead of an old and cheap AMD video card and the corresponding video cable to build a 15khz emulation PC.

[fernan1234]

Emulation for N64 is now supposed to be extremely good for graphics, effects, and overall accuracy.

https://www.libretro.com/index.php/para ... ally-here/


I haven't tried it myself but maybe I should. The only thing that I'm wondering is controller stick mapping. I have an N64 to USB adapter, I wonder how well it would to for analogue stick sensitivity. Controls would be an important consideration for me. Anyone got experience with these ParaLLEl RDP/RSP plugins?

[orange808]

...that so many are suggesting even buying scan converters for OP's needs...

I don't favor any specific route. That's up to OP.

I only chimed in because the scan converter/video processor subject came up. I wouldn't want anyone out there to spend a lot of money (and effort) getting an Emotia for 480i output, only to discover there was something cheaper and better available: Extron VSC machines.

[andykara2003]

I ended up using VC my NTSC Wii with RGB and just turning up the contrast & a little to compensate for the slightly darker image. It looks beautiful, really pleased with it. It’s just enough to clear up the image to the point where it still looks authentic (as Gunstar elucidated so well) - not so sharp as to expose the 2D elements, with just enough pixelation and softness. Basically just like my memories of the console from back in the day. The 480i's interlacing is a non factor with the combination of my relatively small CRT (21" Trinitron), and the Wii's de-flicher filter which I usually tone down with Swiss on GC but in this case adds that touch off N64 softness & helps to further blend 2D and 3D elements.

The N64 has aged the worst of all the consoles I think. And I played in PAL back then and NTSC now which exacerbates the problem even further as I'm now playing in even lower resolution. The Wii route elevates it just enough without going too high a res where the N64 starts looking like a bunch of overly sharp polygons.

Watching that MVG video it seems the N64 was emulated very well with very little lag on the Wii. I love NST, the developer, who had a unique version of the emulator for each game to make sure they run well. The range of games is limited but it has most of my favourites & I can play Banjo on the Rare collection on XBOX one.

Thanks a million for all the help, very interesting to hear of other more esoteric options re. scan converters etc. And privilege to have input from the old time heavy hitters Orange808, Gunstar and Guzpaz as well Fernan1234, good to know the forum still has quality.