PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

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Rock Man
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PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Rock Man »

I keep seeing addon cards pop-up on various websites. They never have mine, I wondered if I could take something like a BKM-243HS HD/D1 HDSDI and install it into my PVM M2U20? In other words, are all BKM cards compatible with PVMs? If it's not universal that's fine I will try something different.

If the answer is no, what are some recommended search terms I can use to find what I'm looking for? I ask because I keep hitting dead ends. I considered getting a BVM with Component HD (HD-SDI, Progressive Scan) already in there. But I only really wanna use that input on the OG XBOX and Gamecube for progressive scan. Meanwhile all other sources are SCART RGB and I have about 12 systems connected excluding the above. Would seem like a bit much to purchase a BVM for 2 systems would rather just get the addon if available. Another roadblock is the price is astronomical for me plus I don't have enough room. What should I do?

Edit: An Ebay seller tells me that yes these input adapters or addon cards ARE compatible with all PVMs. Now this makes me even more curious!
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Guspaz
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Guspaz »

No. Ignoring the fact that most PVMs don't even have an option card slot to begin with, the BKM-243HS isn't even the same size/shape as the option cards designed for the CRT PVMs. It's designed for modern OLED and LCD BVMs and LMDs. And even among the cards intended for those modern monitors, not all BKM cards work with all models:

https://pro.sony/s3/cms-static-content/ ... 261347.pdf

Back in the CRT era, you couldn't put something like the BKM-142HD (the HD-SDI card from the CRT era) in a 15 kHz PVM because there's no scalers involved and the BKM-142HD only supports HD resolutions. It was meant for use in BVMs, just barely sneaking its way into the PVM family via the L5 series, which seem to be pretty much PVM-branded BVMs.
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Rock Man
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Rock Man »

Guspaz wrote:No. Ignoring the fact that most PVMs don't even have an option card slot to begin with, the BKM-243HS isn't even the same size/shape as the option cards designed for the CRT PVMs. It's designed for modern OLED and LCD BVMs and LMDs. And even among the cards intended for those modern monitors, not all BKM cards work with all models:

https://pro.sony/s3/cms-static-content/ ... 261347.pdf

Back in the CRT era, you couldn't put something like the BKM-142HD (the HD-SDI card from the CRT era) in a 15 kHz PVM because there's no scalers involved and the BKM-142HD only supports HD resolutions. It was meant for use in BVMs, just barely sneaking its way into the PVM family via the L5 series, which seem to be pretty much PVM-branded BVMs.
Ah glad I didn't buy it then. I'm grateful for the heads-up!

What cards are compatible for the M2U20? If I could just get a name I'll know what to look for. Unless they simply don't make those HD BKM's for 15 kHz PVMs?
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Gara
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Gara »

You typed it as PVM M2U20, but do you mean the 20M2U? I was trying to google it the other way and was coming up empty. From what I can see in the manual for the 20M2U if you want SDI you would need the:
BKM-101C Component SDI Kit (For video)
BKM-102 Component SDI Kit (For audio)

From what I'd understand that would get you SD-SDI and limit you to 480i. SDI won't bypass the limitations of your CRT being 15khz only.

If you do decide to splurge on a 31khz compatible BVM, I would recommend avoiding SDI. If you want to simplify your signal path then why not buy a COMP2RGB and use that to turn the component from your Gamecube and Xbox into RGB Scart. I use one in my own setup to keep everything RGB Scart.


https://archive.org/details/pvm20m4a

https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/comp2rgb
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Rock Man
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Rock Man »

Gara wrote:You typed it as PVM M2U20, but do you mean the 20M2U? I was trying to google it the other way and was coming up empty. From what I can see in the manual for the 20M2U if you want SDI you would need the:
BKM-101C Component SDI Kit (For video)
BKM-102 Component SDI Kit (For audio)

From what I'd understand that would get you SD-SDI and limit you to 480i. SDI won't bypass the limitations of your CRT being 15khz only.

If you do decide to splurge on a 31khz compatible BVM, I would recommend avoiding SDI. If you want to simplify your signal path then why not buy a COMP2RGB and use that to turn the component from your Gamecube and Xbox into RGB Scart. I use one in my own setup to keep everything RGB Scart.


https://archive.org/details/pvm20m4a

https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/comp2rgb
So, when I red that statement the first thing that came to mind was "Xbox and GC already support SCART RGB" but then I realized it SHOULD be an improved SCART signal versus hooking SCART up RAW. Is that what you're getting at? The issue I'm getting when connecting to Component raw are bleeds on red and SCART on GC/XB looks like straight-up S-Video it's so dim. So, a better SCART via the COMP2RGB would be what you're getting at? If we're talking about an overall cleaned up signal I'm in!

Thanks for posting your sources.

EDIT: So I watched a few videos of it in action when playing 2D games like Street Fighter 2. How does it look when playing Smash Brothers or Dead or Alive 3?
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Gara
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Gara »

You can't do 480p over RGB Scart with the Gamecube unless you're using some kind of third party adapter like the Eon mk-ii. I was just assuming you used component with Gamecube and Xbox and that's why you wanted an SDI solution. So an error on my part.

Why do you want to hookup SDI? Be it SD, ED, or HD variants. Just to get 480p+ signals out of your Gamecube and Xbox? You could get 480p+ support over YPbPr (component) or RGB Scart if your monitor supported it. SDI only complicates things.

As for you dim signal and red bleed... I'm not sure what the deal is there. I use the component cables for Gamecube in my own setup and the COMP2RGB to turn that into RGB Scart. It looks great, with or without the Comp2RGB on my monitors. I just use the Comp2RGB for the convenience of having all my systems end in a single RGB Scart output.
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Rock Man
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Rock Man »

Gara wrote:You can't do 480p over RGB Scart with the Gamecube unless you're using some kind of third party adapter like the Eon mk-ii. I was just assuming you used component with Gamecube and Xbox and that's why you wanted an SDI solution. So an error on my part.

Why do you want to hookup SDI? Be it SD, ED, or HD variants. Just to get 480p+ signals out of your Gamecube and Xbox? You could get 480p+ support over YPbPr (component) or RGB Scart if your monitor supported it. SDI only complicates things.

As for you dim signal and red bleed... I'm not sure what the deal is there. I use the component cables for Gamecube in my own setup and the COMP2RGB to turn that into RGB Scart. It looks great, with or without the Comp2RGB on my monitors. I just use the Comp2RGB for the convenience of having all my systems end in a single RGB Scart output.
Huh? I might've got something mixed up. Yes I am trying to do Component through the GameCube and Xbox on my 15 kHz PVM.

I simply want better quality out of these systems than I would get connecting them both with SCART RGB raw with no transcoder. Dont care if it's not 480p on my PVM anymore after you guys revealed my unit can't do progressive scan even with a BKM addon adapter. So now the solution is to get these Component systems to look cleaner than they would on SCART by itself.

I assumed you meant the COMP2RGB will do just that or am I mistaken? I want this mostly for 3D games.

As for the bleed my pvm will make reds too damn leaky in Component. Games are still playable but I do not wish to settle for playable. I need that thing to look like a banger. It doesn't get bleed or dim in regular RGB just when I use Component on that TV.

Edit: The dimness comes from the GC, it doesn't get dark on other TVs in Component. The TV has bleed issues too when connected to my MVS however no darkness with the latter system. It's just the TV doing that.
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Guspaz
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Guspaz »

SDI is chroma subsampled (and it's digital component video), so if you're having chroma bleed issues, SDI isn't going to solve that. You can get SD-SDI (480i) from the BKM-101C for the PVM-20M2U. But it seems to be a card relatively specific to that PVM sub-family so I'd bet it's a lot more rare than something like the BKM-120D, which provided SD-SDI to a bunch of other PVMs like the L2 and L5. The brochure for your monitor including the list of supported add-ons can be found here: https://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/mode ... /pvm20.pdf

If your component input to your PVM is problematic (mine for example oversharpens unless I disable the LPF in the service menu, which is one of the settings that can't be saved to NVRAM), then you can use a COMP2RGB to work around that, or just get native RGB output form whatever console. The GameCube, you're not getting component out of that with either one of the digital-port component video cables or HDRV RGB-to-component cables on a PAL gamecube. It shouldn't be particularly dim? If you're using a PAL gamecube with HDRV cables and it's too dim, flip the switch on the side of the cable's converter module.
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Rock Man
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Rock Man »

I see. That sucks your LPF setting won't save to the RAM! I tried native RGB the picture is too blurry. I would ask if using COMP2RGB would improve the quality over native RGB however I recently spoke with a content creator who fucks with retro gaming and they said no. Guess I'll need to find another solution. Are there any devices for CRTs that improves SCART input?

All my consoles are NTSC. Thank u for that documentation!
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Gara
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Gara »

Ah! I was just misunderstanding you. Your problems are a bit odd and I was making assumptions when trying to figure out what you wanted.

Comp2rgb will not improve your image. It may come through better if your monitor has some kind of problem with YPbPr or is otherwise not calibrated as carefully as your RGB input.

There is no way to improve on RGB Scart other than using high quality cables built to the right specifications and using high quality switchers. Poor quality cables and equipment can screw with the image and brightness.

Your monitor may also need adjustment of the convergence if you're seeing a blurry image. Your monitor is pretty sharp at 600tvl when in optimal conditions. I'm just guessing though. It's hard to know what you're seeing.
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Rock Man
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Re: PVM Addon Cards, are they universal?

Post by Rock Man »

Gara wrote:Ah! I was just misunderstanding you. Your problems are a bit odd and I was making assumptions when trying to figure out what you wanted.

Comp2rgb will not improve your image. It may come through better if your monitor has some kind of problem with YPbPr or is otherwise not calibrated as carefully as your RGB input.

There is no way to improve on RGB Scart other than using high quality cables built to the right specifications and using high quality switchers. Poor quality cables and equipment can screw with the image and brightness.

Your monitor may also need adjustment of the convergence if you're seeing a blurry image. Your monitor is pretty sharp at 600tvl when in optimal conditions. I'm just guessing though. It's hard to know what you're seeing.
Sorry for late response.

I am using high quality cables from Retro Gaming Cables and Retro Access. I used quality switchers like the Shinybow and the Otaku switchers. All other consoles look great except for Gamecube and Xbox although to be fair with Xbox I only tested once, I tested a while back. I just remember not liking the results. Granted those were all 15 kHz consoles.

Btw I have an HDTV and scored a Retrotink 5x Pro recently. You'd think all my prayers there would be answered except my TV is shit when it comes to 480p sources and the Tink. Xbox and GC the colors are crisp the downside is everything looks like a pixelated nightmare! The text is a jagged mess! If I'm lucky perhaps Mike Chi makes a firmware update that addresses problems found in the shittier VIZIO sets out there but it's a long shot I know and he's under no obligation to do so. His device still kicks major ass for every other system on my HD set including the NeoGeo and the Saturn. XB and GC forget about it my TV just won't give an inch.

I'll look for the convergence adjustment on my CRT and report back. Although I think I tried that before, didn't know what option to look for. I won't be tuning (opening the back of the monitor and wearing rubber gloves) my CRT anytime soon, I want to but I gotta work up to it and mentally prepare. But if there's any improvements that can be made for the Component signal in service menu or TV menu let me know. I just want to get rid of that red bleed.
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