NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = Solid

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

Lopenator wrote:Are most of the people here with issues from the most recent batch of v4.0? The 2nd batch?
It would seem so as we are all posting around the same time with issues after doing the install over the last few weeks. My board says 22.38 if that is the version code.
User avatar
Lopenator
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:40 pm

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Lopenator »

I ask because I was in the first batch and these issue were present. I remember reading the new boards would be patched.

Mine is 22.31
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1774
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Syntax »

Donttouchthedoor wrote:
Syntax wrote:Tim went thru the trouble of redesigning the NESRGB kit so he could still produce it with available parts during the chip shortage.
Some teething issues are to be expected unfortunately with the new boards and their code.
I'd say he's away at the moment if not returning emails as he is usually very fast with replies.
Would you say Tim could update the firmware and release it for us to flash with a usb blaster?
The update process for these is not that simple. You would have to send it to either Tim or I to be flashed id say.
Depending on the volume sold id do it for nothing, hes helped me out a heap over the years.
Last edited by Syntax on Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

Syntax wrote:
Donttouchthedoor wrote:
Syntax wrote:Tim went thru the trouble of redesigning the NESRGB kit so he could still produce it with available parts during the chip shortage.
Some teething issues are to be expected unfortunately with the new boards and their code.
I'd say he's away at the moment if not returning emails as he is usually very fast with replies.
Would you say Tim could update the firmware and release it for us to flash with a usb blaster?
The update process for these is not that simple. You would have to send it to either Tim or me to be flashed id say.
Depending on the volume sold id do it for nothing, hes helped me out a heap over the years.

That would be really awesome of you to do that.

Something else I've been wondering is the location of j8 to set 75ohm for my ossc but noticed j9 is in its place now.
KPackratt2k
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:02 pm
Location: Seattle, WA, USA

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by KPackratt2k »

Donttouchthedoor wrote:Something else I've been wondering is the location of j8 to set 75ohm for my ossc but noticed j9 is in its place now.
The J8 jumper (for setting sync attenuation) is gone now, as far as I can remember from an email response to Tim, the jumper was removed because too many users were closing the jumper and using an SNES multi-out cable that attenuated the sync, causing the sync to be attenuated twice and therefore not work correctly. This shouldn't be a problem because the CSYNC the NESRGB outputs can work with or without attenuation. Just try it as is and see if it works. If not, it shouldn't be too difficult to add a sync attenuation resistor yourself, either on the multi-out connector of choice inside the NES console or inside your RGB cable.
GeorgeSpinner
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by GeorgeSpinner »

I am from the 2nd batch.

I have not seen the color issues, but I have not looked for them.

Once I finally got a palette to load, I haven't noticed anything else wrong.
GeorgeSpinner
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by GeorgeSpinner »

Syntax wrote:Tim went thru the trouble of redesigning the NESRGB kit so he could still produce it with available parts during the chip shortage.
Some teething issues are to be expected unfortunately with the new boards and their code.
I'd say he's away at the moment if not returning emails as he is usually very fast with replies.
I guess he takes very long trips.

It's crazy how the world has changed. 3 years ago who thought of parts shortages being a thing.
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

Syntax wrote:
GeorgeSpinner wrote:
This is very specific information you are offering.

How do you know this solution?
I did some testing with the v4 proto for Tim. The only issue I found with the top loader Pal unit I was using was the cold boot issue which was fixed with a new .47uf electro cap.
I was told from the start to install the 220pf cap on the PPU. The picture is from my install it may be hard to see the cap in the red circle just above the pin.
I never noticed the attenuator issue but I did not test any of the effected titles it seems.

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/background_fault/nesrgb40/

just tried a 100pf cap on my ppu and no luck so far. should i try 220pf next on pins 13 and 20?
Centauri53
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:56 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Centauri53 »

I'm also having this issue. Second batch of ver 4 on 22.38 with front loader. On power, led 0 = solid and 7 = flashing. 7 flashes fast most of the time though sometimes will flash slow. Any recommendations?
User avatar
Lopenator
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:40 pm

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Lopenator »

I'm a little upset about all the issues with this revision. NES is my favorite and I've waited close to a year to finally get a RGB mod for it due to the parts shortage and the making of rev 4.

It's just a little let down for me is all. Wish I could've gotten an earlier revision but it is what it is. I suppose. It seems the 1st batch of v4 has separate issues from the 2nd batch.

I know it's only a small population of boards with the errors because I see people doing v4 installs on Twitter all the time without any mention of any errors. What the difference in the boards?
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

Lopenator wrote:I'm a little upset about all the issues with this revision. NES is my favorite and I've waited close to a year to finally get a RGB mod for it due to the parts shortage and the making of rev 4.

It's just a little let down for me is all. Wish I could've gotten an earlier revision but it is what it is. I suppose. It seems the 1st batch of v4 has separate issues from the 2nd batch.

I know it's only a small population of boards with the errors because I see people doing v4 installs on Twitter all the time without any mention of any errors. What the difference in the boards?

In the same boat, I've dreamed of a rgb modded nes for quite some time now. Been on a quest to get rgb picture out of all my consoles. But the nes was a real favorite of mine. I have a long list of games I have yet to play still and was saving it for the rgb mod. It sucks that only some of us are being effected and still nothing from Tim....
viletim
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:44 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by viletim »

There are two batches of NESRGB V4. You can tell them apart from the date code that the manufacturer puts on the silkscreen. First batch is 2231, second is 2238.

The second batch has newer FPGA firmware and one of the changes is the PLL is now enabled, to make the board more resistant to noise on the clock signal. This adds to the start up time as the PLL needs time to stabilise and the FPGA sits idle while in this state. The device datasheet doesn't characterize the PLL startup speed, so I measured a couple of them and and used that as my reference. It turns out that some chips take much longer than others to stabilise the PLL. I mean about 50 times longer! When this happens, the FPGA is not ready to accept the palette change command from the microcontroller and it just stays in its default state (off, LED 0).

It can be fixed by a microcontroller firmware update. This requires a USB to TTL serial adapter. I'll have some new firmware and update instructions ready on Monday.

I also have had a modification board made to fix problems with the first batch. I don't have time to write about that now, it will have to wait till Monday. Sorry it's taken so long.
User avatar
Lopenator
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:40 pm

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Lopenator »

viletim wrote:There are two batches of NESRGB V4. You can tell them apart from the date code that the manufacturer puts on the silkscreen. First batch is 2231, second is 2238.

The second batch has newer FPGA firmware and one of the changes is the PLL is now enabled, to make the board more resistant to noise on the clock signal. This adds to the start up time as the PLL needs time to stabilise and the FPGA sits idle while in this state. The device datasheet doesn't characterize the PLL startup speed, so I measured a couple of them and and used that as my reference. It turns out that some chips take much longer than others to stabilise the PLL. I mean about 50 times longer! When this happens, the FPGA is not ready to accept the palette change command from the microcontroller and it just stays in its default state (off, LED 0).

It can be fixed by a microcontroller firmware update. This requires a USB to TTL serial adapter. I'll have some new firmware and update instructions ready on Monday.

I also have had a modification board made to fix problems with the first batch. I don't have time to write about that now, it will have to wait till Monday. Sorry it's taken so long.
I have the first batch. Super excited to hear about a modification board! Thanks for the update!
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

viletim wrote:There are two batches of NESRGB V4. You can tell them apart from the date code that the manufacturer puts on the silkscreen. First batch is 2231, second is 2238.

The second batch has newer FPGA firmware and one of the changes is the PLL is now enabled, to make the board more resistant to noise on the clock signal. This adds to the start up time as the PLL needs time to stabilise and the FPGA sits idle while in this state. The device datasheet doesn't characterize the PLL startup speed, so I measured a couple of them and and used that as my reference. It turns out that some chips take much longer than others to stabilise the PLL. I mean about 50 times longer! When this happens, the FPGA is not ready to accept the palette change command from the microcontroller and it just stays in its default state (off, LED 0).

It can be fixed by a microcontroller firmware update. This requires a USB to TTL serial adapter. I'll have some new firmware and update instructions ready on Monday.

I also have had a modification board made to fix problems with the first batch. I don't have time to write about that now, it will have to wait till Monday. Sorry it's taken so long.
This is fantastic news I cant wait to get this update applied, will order a usb to ttl asap any recommendations? Glad to hear back on this as bug crunching can be quite time consuming Thank you for the hard work on providing us with a fix and being transparent about what went wrong.
viletim
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:44 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by viletim »

Here is V2.1 MCU firmware and updating instructions.

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/NESRGB4_MCU_firmware
User avatar
Lopenator
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:40 pm

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Lopenator »

Will you be providing information about 2231 modification board?
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

viletim wrote:Here is V2.1 MCU firmware and updating instructions.

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/NESRGB4_MCU_firmware


Will apply the update when home from work, Thank you! :D
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

Donttouchthedoor wrote:
viletim wrote:Here is V2.1 MCU firmware and updating instructions.

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/NESRGB4_MCU_firmware


Will apply the update when home from work, Thank you! :D
Went ahead and applied the update 2.1 to my 22.38 board and still LED 7 blinking and LED 0 Solid... Man my NES must have the weirdest reset timing on the planet.
Last edited by Donttouchthedoor on Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
BambooShadow
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:27 pm
Location: Stuttgart / GER
Contact:

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by BambooShadow »

Donttouchthedoor wrote: Went ahead and applied the update 2.1 to my 22.38 board and still LED 7 blinking... Man my NES must have the weirdest reset timing on the planet.
You are not alone, same problem here (currently on a PAL NES Toaster, 22.38-board-number).

LED 7 blinking isn't bad, but LED 0 flashing is :D. Still the case here.
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

BambooShadow wrote:
Donttouchthedoor wrote: Went ahead and applied the update 2.1 to my 22.38 board and still LED 7 blinking... Man my NES must have the weirdest reset timing on the planet.
You are not alone, same problem here (currently on a PAL NES Toaster, 22.38-board-number).

LED 7 blinking isn't bad, but LED 0 flashing is :D. Still the case here.

Have you applied the 2.1 firmware update to your board?
User avatar
BambooShadow
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:27 pm
Location: Stuttgart / GER
Contact:

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by BambooShadow »

Donttouchthedoor wrote:Have you applied the 2.1 firmware update to your board?
yes
viletim
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:44 am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by viletim »

Donttouchthedoor wrote:
Donttouchthedoor wrote:
viletim wrote:Here is V2.1 MCU firmware and updating instructions.

https://etim.net.au/nesrgb/NESRGB4_MCU_firmware


Will apply the update when home from work, Thank you! :D
Went ahead and applied the update 2.1 to my 22.38 board and still LED 7 blinking and LED 0 Solid... Man my NES must have the weirdest reset timing on the planet.
It seems it didn't work for anybody.

When V4 NESRGB was finished, I modified my test jig to accommodate tests for the extra IO (such as jumpers and reset pad). It starts the NESRGB board up in the off (no palette selected) mode. I changed it to start with palette 1 and retested about 80 boards. I found three that failed the test and still started up in off mode. I tracked down to the MCU communicating with the with the FPGA before it was ready which I described previously. With the new firmware loaded, all three of these boards now work correctly on the test jig. One thing to note is that LED 7 doesn't come on when palette fails to load.

I suppose that the problem that people in this thread are having is something else. Probably related to the front loader specifically, as nobody reported this problem in any other console type. It looks like I'm going to have to borrow somebody's console to instigate.
User avatar
Lopenator
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:40 pm

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Lopenator »

I'm getting noise on the screen when I use the hd retrovision cables. It looks like it might be noise on the 3.3v rail but I've replaced the regulator and did a full recap. Do you think installing the extra voltage regulator Tim gives us for the nesrgb could help? I only notice it with RGB cables.

Edit. Ehh, I just installed the external regulator and its still there. oh well.
Last edited by Lopenator on Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
BambooShadow
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:27 pm
Location: Stuttgart / GER
Contact:

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by BambooShadow »

viletim wrote:I suppose that the problem that people in this thread are having is something else. Probably related to the front loader specifically, as nobody reported this problem in any other console type. It looks like I'm going to have to borrow somebody's console to instigate.
I'd be glad to provide my PAL Frontloader ("european version"), but shipping it around half the globe (from GER to AUS) seems to be a tad inefficient.

Thanks for your efforts. Looking forward for further news.
User avatar
Donttouchthedoor
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:18 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Donttouchthedoor »

viletim wrote: It seems it didn't work for anybody.

When V4 NESRGB was finished, I modified my test jig to accommodate tests for the extra IO (such as jumpers and reset pad). It starts the NESRGB board up in the off (no palette selected) mode. I changed it to start with palette 1 and retested about 80 boards. I found three that failed the test and still started up in off mode. I tracked down to the MCU communicating with the with the FPGA before it was ready which I described previously. With the new firmware loaded, all three of these boards now work correctly on the test jig. One thing to note is that LED 7 doesn't come on when palette fails to load.

I suppose that the problem that people in this thread are having is something else. Probably related to the front loader specifically, as nobody reported this problem in any other console type. It looks like I'm going to have to borrow somebody's console to instigate.
I will try to figure out what shipping costs will be from Canada if I have time this weekend.
Centauri53
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:56 am

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by Centauri53 »

Here's my environment and experienced behavior if it helps - NESRGB 22.38 with ntsc nes-001 front loader, nes-cpu-07
Applied MCU v2.1, same scenario - led 0 always solid and led 7 flashing (two different flash patterns, fast or slow).

0 is always solid regardless of below 7 flash patterns -
On power, 7 flashes very fast about 4 times and then pause, then repeats that pattern a few times before 7 is solid.
On power, 7 flashes slow about 8 times and then is solid.

There have been a rare few times on power that only led 0 is solid and 7 never comes on.
oldskoolconsoles
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:00 pm

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by oldskoolconsoles »

*** This is what I've tried and it seems to work, but I'm not an expert ***

You may find an issue with the frontloader.
If led 0 is on, it means the pallette isn't loading.
Its related to the reset timing.

Remove the cic and add a 0.47u cap, 100k resistor and 2 jumper wires as detailed here:
https://github.com/Redherring32/NullCIC ... ullCIC.jpg

If controller in game reset isn't working properly.
Add a 10 or 100 nf capacitor in series with ppu pin 22.

Another issue is the everdrive won't boot on first power up.
You have to press the reset button on the console for it to boot up, then it should work fine, along with in game reset.
oldskoolconsoles
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:00 pm

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by oldskoolconsoles »

Ignore the above post, apparently bridging PRG and GND going the mcu on the nesrgb solves the no pallette issue. *I think*.
User avatar
BambooShadow
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:27 pm
Location: Stuttgart / GER
Contact:

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by BambooShadow »

oldskoolconsoles wrote:Ignore the above post, apparently bridging PRG and GND going the mcu on the nesrgb solves the no pallette issue. *I think*.
According to Tim's documentation, the microcontroller's serial bootloader would be enabled all the time then. Could this have any negative impact on the NESRGB-board or the NES/Famicom console? If not, then this could be a cool workaround for now.

@oldskoolconsoles / @viletim
User avatar
BambooShadow
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:27 pm
Location: Stuttgart / GER
Contact:

Re: NESRGB v4 on Front Loader - LED 7 = Flashing / LED 0 = S

Post by BambooShadow »

oldskoolconsoles wrote:Ignore the above post, apparently bridging PRG and GND going the mcu on the nesrgb solves the no pallette issue. *I think*.
Didn't work here.
Post Reply