Making a spinner?

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ulfrinn
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Making a spinner?

Post by ulfrinn »

I have been thinking about spinner controllers the past week or so to play some of the games that used them, and probably the upcoming Arkanoid game. But, I need to understand them more (and I also need to wait till that Arkanoid game comes out so I'll know all the buttons I'm going to need). My understanding from what I have seen is that spinners kind of work like a mouse or a trackball in that some kind of sensor detects the rotations. Did the Atari spinner controller work this way too? Were any of them based on a potentiometer with a minimum and maximum axis or did it use some kind of archaic mouse like sensor as well? Also, what do you think about having a spinner installed into a panel of an arcade cabinet or a desktop controller vs a handheld one like the Atari?
neorichieb1971
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Why don't you buy one and modify it?

Arkanoid on the Famicom in Japan came with one. I wish more official spinners were made but they are far and few between. The latest spinner that came out was for the Egret mini in Japan.

In the arcades I Believe they just spun round and round but I might be wrong, which would indicate a mouse roller type rather than a potentiometer design with a locked gate at each end.

Its been so long since I used one.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by bobrocks95 »

I've only had the privilege to play Tempest with a genuine arcade spinner, but if you think about it they definitely spin freely with no min or max because that game would be unplayable otherwise.
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jd213
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by jd213 »

Was thinking about getting the Egret spinner/trackball controller but wasn't sure if it was going to be good quality for the price (looks like it's not easy to find without buying the whole set anyway).

There's arcade spinners made for the 1-up machines, but they need to be mounted on something. Might get one and put it in a project box if it can be used with a MiSTer.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P5WJ7BC
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Syntax
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by Syntax »

These are pricey but a very solid product.
https://ultimatemister.com/product/ulti ... inner-pro/
ulfrinn
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by ulfrinn »

Well, if a potentiometer with limit range was mapped to a joystick axis, and that joystick axis was set to something like a "mouse region" mode so the position of the dial directly translated to the position of the mouse on screen, that'd be quite playable. But, I'll go the more traditional/proper route using a sensor. Besides, so long as the sensitivity is set correctly, I can still reasonably achieve any ratio of rotation to mouse movement I want anyway.

So this tells me I'm going to need to find a decent mouse sensor module that is up to the task, and find some spec sheets on that sensor so I can make sure I find a micro controller that can handle it, and however many buttons I'm going to need. I'll probably use an RP2040 for the brains and USB connectivity, and I'm hoping to pack it into something the size of a Vectrex controller. I'm going to go for a desktop setup rather than something hand held since I'm probably going to need more than one fire button for newer games, so I'll need a hand free for that.
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DoomsDave
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by DoomsDave »

This isn't my video but I bought the same spinner from BD Retro Mods and really like it. Quality is very high - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP_At4dI_0M
Nugs
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by Nugs »

jd213 wrote:Was thinking about getting the Egret spinner/trackball controller but wasn't sure if it was going to be good quality for the price (looks like it's not easy to find without buying the whole set anyway).
If you plug the Taito controller into a Windows computer the track ball is recognised as a mouse, and the spinner as a mouse scroll wheel.
ulfrinn
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by ulfrinn »

Alright, I think I will actually go with a spinner and track ball controller together since those cover a lot of the same type of games and it would be easy enough to have those two controls beside each other, with a few buttons to the right of them. But, I'm still going to make it myself, so I need to find some kind of a drop-in spinner module. I see these when I look around online https://www.amazon.com/Fosiya-Spinner-A ... 0895QF3MS/ but I'm not sure if those are a good solution.

Since I want to add a trackball too, I had the idea of just buying a cheap gaming mouse, probably one with enough buttons on it, mounting the PCB under the trackball, wiring the spinner to the scroll wheel, and wire arcade buttons to where the micro switches were on the mouse. But my concern with this idea is if there are new PC versions of these games coming out, that there won't be a way to use what would be detected as a scroll wheel to control the character in-game.
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Sumez
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by Sumez »

neorichieb1971 wrote:Why don't you buy one and modify it?
Arkanoid on the Famicom in Japan came with one. I wish more official spinners were made but they are far and few between.
Weren't those controllers just a potmeter?
A good potmeter can still be used to control an arkanoid-style game, but I'd say it's a very different experience from a spinner
viletim
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by viletim »

Rotary controllers are traditionally divided into two categories by the tech they used. Paddle controllers are made from potentiometers and have 180-270 degrees of rotation. That's what the Atari consoles, Sega Master System, Playstation (Namco Volume Controller) used. Spinner controllers are pretty much only found on arcade machines. They use optical serrated discs and spin 360 degrees with no end stop.

If you want to make a new rotary controller, probably not using potentiometer tech (so no end stop to worry about) you still have to decide whether you want to optimise for Tempest or Arkanoid. An optimal Tempest spinner has low resolution, is capable of high speed, has some weight to it, and spins freely when released. An optimal Arkanoid spinner has high resolution, low weight, and stops dead when you release it.

The trouble is that most arcade style spinners that you can buy are optimised for Tempest, but the vast majority games that support paddles/spinners (or games that support single axis mouse control and would benefit from a rotary controller), whether for arcade, console, or PC play more like Arkanoid.

To decide on whether a rotary controller is suitable for Tempest, you need to find the maximum RPM you need and find out if the controller is reliable at that speed. For the Arkanoid controller the resolution is the important spec. The paddle (Vaus) in original arcade Arkanoid has a movement of about 200 pixels form one end of the screen the the other. You need to be able to traverse the screen an about a quarter turn (depends on the knob size too) so 200 * 4 = 800 pulses per turn minimum. Games which run at higher graphics resolutions need rotary controller with a proportionally high pulses per turn.
ulfrinn wrote:Well, if a potentiometer with limit range was mapped to a joystick axis, and that joystick axis was set to something like a "mouse region" mode so the position of the dial directly translated to the position of the mouse on screen, that'd be quite playable. But, I'll go the more traditional/proper route using a sensor. Besides, so long as the sensitivity is set correctly, I can still reasonably achieve any ratio of rotation to mouse movement I want anyway.

So this tells me I'm going to need to find a decent mouse sensor module that is up to the task, and find some spec sheets on that sensor so I can make sure I find a micro controller that can handle it, and however many buttons I'm going to need. I'll probably use an RP2040 for the brains and USB connectivity, and I'm hoping to pack it into something the size of a Vectrex controller. I'm going to go for a desktop setup rather than something hand held since I'm probably going to need more than one fire button for newer games, so I'll need a hand free for that.
I made a rotary controller with a gaming mouse sensor, a little handheld one, only slightly larger that the Master System paddle.

Image
Image

It's just a potentiometer with the shell off (so no end stop) and a disc stuck to the shaft that the mouse sensor reads. It has the feel of a pot, but I can get over 10k pulses per turn from it.
ulfrinn
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by ulfrinn »

All good questions/information for sure.

Here's the way I see it though. This is for gameplay primarily in games that have a maximum distance to either side of the screen. In order to be precise, you can't have too small of a rotation to span that distance. In order to have responsiveness and quick reflexes, you can't sit there spinning and spinning it to move. You're probably going to want to be able to move from full left to full right of the screen without taking your hand off of it. Whether that ends up being a potentiometer mapped to an X joystick axis, or an optical spinner mapped to a mouses X axis, does it really matter if it's free spinning or a pot? It probably doesn't. The potentiometer would probably be the cheapest, easiest, solution, achieving basically the same end result for games like Breakout, Arkanoid, and Pong.

As you said though, Tempest is where things become different because in Tempest there is no maximum left, maximum right level of movement. You can keep spinning around and around the center. In this case no, a potentiometer wouldn't work because you would reach the maximum rotation of the pot, and being unable to move just a bit further, you would have to rotate completely around the opposite direction to reach that point... This is also true for Asteroids. But this is mostly going to be for Arkanoid, Breakout, and Pong.

So, free spinning works for everything depending on how you fine tune the sensitivity, but will cost more, and be more complicated to build unless you use a pre-assembled product like I posted above. Potentiometer only works in games with a limit to how far you can move in either direction, but is significantly cheaper and simpler to set up. That's what I am understanding.
ulfrinn
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Re: Making a spinner?

Post by ulfrinn »

I've been thinking of this project more and decided I am going to go the potentiometer route. It's very inexpensive, very simple, and it works flawlessly in the one or two games I have an interest in using it in. I'll probably rebuild a 2600 paddle controller with a new pot, or maybe just 3D print something, but for Breakout and Arkanoid, and maybe even Pong, all with a minimum and maximum position on screen, there's nothing simpler than a pot.

If I decide to get into some other stuff that used a spinner, it seems a lot of those cabinets used rotary encoders which would send a signal based on the position and movement of the knob. I think turning a knob one full revolution would also move the cursor in something like Tempest one full revolution as well. If I am wrong about this let me know, but if not, I would like to go the more authentic route so if rotary encoders are used, and do work this way, I will want to go this route over an optical sensor when I build a free spinning device.
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