Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

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shmupsrocks
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Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by shmupsrocks »

I'm super sensitive to input lag and I've been reading that the Switch has at least 5-6 frames of lag. Is the OLED any better? Can't find any info on it.
Last edited by shmupsrocks on Sat May 21, 2022 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Guspaz
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED lower lag

Post by Guspaz »

The Switch does not inherently have 5-6 frames of lag. Nintendo Switch Online's N64 emulation had 5-6 frames of lag when it launched, before a later update reduced that by 1-2 frames, but when used wired, many games go lower than that.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED lower lag

Post by Konsolkongen »

Guspaz wrote:The Switch does not inherently have 5-6 frames of lag. Nintendo Switch Online's N64 emulation had 5-6 frames of lag when it launched, before a later update reduced that by 1-2 frames, but when used wired, many games go lower than that.
Wired controlleres? I've read that the Switch has almost an entire frame of additional lag when using wired controllers.

I had to sell and repurchase a bunch of games when I found out just how much better they played on PS4. Of course this didn't always come down to USB lag alone. Some games also have additional lag probably caused by the weaker hardware, noticeable when comparing Pro Controller with Dualshock 4 in wireless mode. It was very noticeable in Capcom Belt Action Collection and Sega Mega Drive Collection, and to a lesser extend Street Fighter 30th when I compared against the PS4 versions.

For anything I want to play with an arcade stick I avoid the Switch whenever possible.
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Shmup Junkie seemed to come up with 5-6 frames of lag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3GKfvuMTpM
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Konsolkongen
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by Konsolkongen »

Yeah for that specific game. Some will be lower, some will be higher.

Electric Underground shows similar results for Strikers II:
https://youtu.be/3_kkVV_wBd8?t=243

Mind you that's with arcade stick, but then again he is using a CRT which will negate a lot of the USB lag compared to using an LCD.
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Gunbird 2 and Strikers were measured at 5-6 frames which is way too much for me. This begs the questions:

Has input lag been measured reliably on any Switch games besides these two? Is it only that high on ports?

USB is said to add ~1 frame but otherwise how much of this lag is inherent to the Switch? How low can it go?

Is the OLED any better?

I'm ready to dive into shmups on the Switch but 5-6 frames would prevent me from playing.
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orange808
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by orange808 »

Looks like a lazy software developer problem to me. If it's lousy, you have to hold the devs accountable. The Switch is not "inherently" five or six frames of latency. That's a development problem.

I also desperately hope the packaged emulator is in compliance with its license. It's possible the emulation is so slow because their solution is in compliance.

Maybe it's high time we started adding rom files and emulators as separate downloads. Maybe get some competition going. I believe an emulator should always be included in the download, but users should have the option to buy and use a different emu--and support for that should be built into the digital store.

Won't happen on Switch, though.

Complaints about the store aside, those games look like a cash grab to me. The Switch is plenty powerful enough to deliver better emulation.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by bobrocks95 »

It can get as low as 3 frames wireless from what I've seen: https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectricUnderg ... _database/

As a whole, unless you desire portability, I'd stick with PS4 for most of these titles. I don't think there are any big switch exclusive shmup releases?
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by Konsolkongen »

Mushihimesama is console exclusive on the Switch, but luckily it has pretty low lag :)
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by shmupsrocks »

bobrocks95, thanks for the link to that spreadsheet. Pretty awful IMO. 3 frames is as low as it gets and that's only for 2 of 14 tested. 9 of 14 games at 6 or 7 frames which is supremely unplayable. +1 frame for using a joystick in either case.

I wonder if the OLED is better but even if it shaves off 2 frames we're at 4-5 frames (or 5-6 with a joystick) for most of the shmups.
Maybe this is a platform for people who don't mind input lag (which for shmups I don't understand at all).
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by Guspaz »

Is that actually worse than other consoles? Most games on the PS4 and XB1 are in the 6-7 frames of lag category, for example. The PS4 has ~5 frames of lag in its dashboard alone.
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by bobrocks95 »

shmupsrocks wrote:bobrocks95, thanks for the link to that spreadsheet. Pretty awful IMO. 3 frames is as low as it gets and that's only for 2 of 14 tested. 9 of 14 games at 6 or 7 frames which is supremely unplayable. +1 frame for using a joystick in either case.

I wonder if the OLED is better but even if it shaves off 2 frames we're at 4-5 frames (or 5-6 with a joystick) for most of the shmups.
Maybe this is a platform for people who don't mind input lag (which for shmups I don't understand at all).
Guspaz wrote:Is that actually worse than other consoles? Most games on the PS4 and XB1 are in the 6-7 frames of lag category, for example. The PS4 has ~5 frames of lag in its dashboard alone.
To give some examples of Cave games I've been researching- Switch is *generally* 1 frame worse lag than PS4 versions. But really ports of any of these games can vary wildly in the lag department.

M2's release of ESP Ra. De. PSI has 4 frames on Switch, presumably 3 on PS4. EOJ at Cave-stg said they returned their Switch copy and only play the PS4 version.
Mushihimesama is at a great 3 frames, tied with the PC and 360 versions.
Espgaluda II has 4 frames on Switch, 3 on 360.
Deathsmiles is 4 on I believe both Switch and PS4, 3 on 360 and PC.

Keep in mind Cave 1000 boards (Mushi on, except Deathsmiles II) have 2 frames of lag, and you've got some stinkers on their old 360 ports too. Pink sweets/Muchi Muchi Pork have 5 frames of lag on 360. Akai Katana has 4-5 variable.

Then you've got the Deathsmiles I & II bundle that just came out, where the PS4 version of II has horrible black crush and nearly 0 slowdown compared to the Switch version, which must have been the lead platform for development.

Wish more hard PS4 numbers were available, but compared to Switch it generally seems to come out a frame ahead. But again, all about how good the port is in the first place- clearly devs can get Switch down to 3 frames which is likely the lowest any console can get with vsync enabled.
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Maybe I'm a spoiled PCB guy. Are PCBs generally much lower lag than any console?

Are there particularly low lag consoles or generally all pretty similar in that regard?

I know the Exa is very low lag but it's not a console of course.

How about the MiSTer?
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bobrocks95
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

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shmupsrocks wrote:Maybe I'm a spoiled PCB guy. Are PCBs generally much lower lag than any console?

Are there particularly low lag consoles or generally all pretty similar in that regard?

I know the Exa is very low lag but it's not a console of course.

How about the MiSTer?
That Electric Underground table has Aka & Blue Type-R on the Exa at 5 frames of lag. The ST-V PCB version of Guardian Force has 6-7 frames of lag.

You get the OS overhead on modern consoles that can cause some problems to work around, but really it seems to be on an entirely game-by-game basis. Poll your inputs improperly or at the wrong time and any game can be laggy. If a company throws together a cheap emulated package for a game, rolls their own bare minimum functioning emulator instead of licensing a much better one, and doesn't pay much attention to lag, you get the City Connection Cotton/Guardian Force package or recent Psikyo ports (though I wouldn't want to be stuck working with Guardian Force and starting off with 6 frames off the bat).

It's also a YMMV thing. With a low-lag display and no PCB experience, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't notice 5, 6, even 7 frames of lag on a port. We're like a niche of a niche, it's going to depend on your setup and how sensitive you are to lag. I wouldn't call 4 frames bad at all on most anything, but then you've got EOJ returning ESP Ra De PSI for feeling bad to play. If I owned the PCB and had played it a lot, maybe I'd agree?
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Has anything changed in the last year and a half as far as input lag on the Switch or is everything in the 3-7 frame range with most around 5-6? +1 frame if using USB.
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

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Every time I looked into Switch lag it seems there are just some system level issues. It's not just lazy devs. The HDMI out / dock seems to add a frame of latency and something is messed up about the USB stack since USB controllers are slower than BT ones. These are likely things only Nintendo could fix. Then there's the lower performance of the system. Lag-reducing emulation techniques like run-ahead or frame delay might just not be possible and devs often make choices like tripe buffering that favor performance over latency. Well-optimized games can have 3-4 frames of lag which I consider acceptable, but always check before buying otherwise you might end up with something that is 6-9.
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by shmupsrocks »

Based on other comments in this thread, other modern consoles are only 1 frame better? (More like 3 frames if you first add 2 frames to Switch for USB and HDMI-out.)
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by orange808 »

Where are we getting reliable data about latency on consoles? Please don't share a reddit link where someone with a camera made a 30 second video, took one sample, and guessed when their finger pressed the button.
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

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orange808 wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 2:23 pm Where are we getting reliable data about latency on consoles? Please don't share a reddit link where someone with a camera made a 30 second video, took one sample, and guessed when their finger pressed the button.
Shmup Junkie and MarkMSX / Electric Underground did credible looking tests over the years with various games and controllers. The whole Switch Dock / USB lag issue has also been well-documented. Something I actually don't know anything about is the lag situation on PS5/Series consoles. I remember some talk early on about using better controller polling techniques and of course these consoles have support for VRR/120Hz etc., I wonder if this gen is actually better than PS4 with lag?
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orange808
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by orange808 »

ASDR wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 8:31 pm I remember some talk early on about using better controller polling techniques and of course these consoles have support for VRR/120Hz etc., I wonder if this gen is actually better than PS4 with lag?
Maybe. The inexpensive hardware on consoles is going to eventually create some barriers, though.

I've posted this link before, but it's a good one. It's a good primer on what's happening down on the metal.
https://raphlinus.github.io/ui/graphics ... acing.html

------

Below, I've attached a discussion about the behavior of a GPU using a low latency "double buffer". Nvidia's Ultra Low Latency is essentially a double buffer. You've got one working prerendered frame and the current frame that is being displayed.

The final post also describes what happens if the hardware can't keep up. Users would describe (experience) these issues as "freezes"/"hitches"/"dropped frames"/"slowdowns" etc... etc...

https://community.khronos.org/t/where-i ... n/106486/6

I doubt the PS5 has the raw horsepower to use something like PC Ultra Low Latency with the single working buffer. It's too lean and the machine is going to miss deadlines. It seems unlikely that the PS5 (I don't have a dev kit and I probably couldn't talk about it if I did) would expose driver level settings to game devs in userland. Even if I wanted to reduce the swap chain latency, I bet devs are locked out.
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Sima Tuna
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Re: Nintendo Switch OLED has lower lag?

Post by Sima Tuna »

bobrocks95 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:43 pm It can get as low as 3 frames wireless from what I've seen: https://www.reddit.com/r/ElectricUnderg ... _database/

As a whole, unless you desire portability, I'd stick with PS4 for most of these titles. I don't think there are any big switch exclusive shmup releases?
Yeah, everything I've seen online suggests that the Switch hardware adds a single frame of delay. So if you have a game with a really solid porting job, then the game should have around 2-3 frames of native delay + the single frame of switch delay, which is probably coming from the way the system communicates or something.

So 3-4 frames should be the delay on most Switch games that are ported over well. But games that are ported lazily or with additional inserted lag (such as emulating a game through proprietary Zebra engine or some other shit emulation box) will have more lag.
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