RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

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orange808
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by orange808 »

ZellSF wrote: Probably should've quoted the entire post so people got the context, but I thought it wasn't necessary in a so short topic.

Lag was part of the conversation, the implication was that gamers should care about VRR because VRR modes are lower lag, except VRR isn't inherently lower lag. That's just specific to one line of TVs, not all TVs with VRR support.

Gamers should care about VRR, just not for fixed refresh rate content.
Back again? Okay. Here we go:

What context? The "context" where you ignored my post, cherry picked one thing, and made a nonsensical point to start an argument??

You willfully omitted mysterious tearing and complete incompatibility with some sources due to "off spec" refresh. That's still a thing and a lot of people are still fighting it.

That was the other part of my post that you ignored when you decided to pick a fight about nothing.. And, the fact that the "go to" gaming consumer LG OLED's **are** "inherently" low lag with VRR. :-)

You're just arguing to argue. You didn't have anything to add. In fact, you probably haven't explored a lot of different hardware (displays, home computers, PCB's, and consoles) to even get a proper impression of the frustrations that are out there. I have. And, I have a stack of video gear that I maintain to deal with a variety of use cases.

Why are you chiming in, again?

Case and point: You can't rattle off ways to tate with personal experience and identity what works with what. You don't know.

Hooray, you've got your one cheap tv and an opinion. Great. :-)
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ZellSF
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by ZellSF »

I was just saying the lag part of your post wasn't accurate. Not sure why that bothers you so much.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by bobrocks95 »

Quickly checked rtings and found a TCL, a Hisense, and a Samsung that had notably lower input lag with VRR, so you're wrong anyway.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by ZellSF »

bobrocks95 wrote:Quickly checked rtings and found a TCL, a Hisense, and a Samsung that had notably lower input lag with VRR, so you're wrong anyway.
These experts?:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag
rtings.com wrote:Enabling VRR could potentially add lag, so that's why we measure it
I mean there we have a pretty clear statement by someone who has tested more TVs than you or me, but rtings.com allows you to actually make lists pretty quickly so I made a list to compare all the TVs they tested (using their latest test methodology), not just three random ones. For 4K VRR lost pretty consistently, but not by many microseconds while 1080p was more of a mixed bag, with VRR losing in most cases (again not with many microseconds). I checked only 120hz (because to compare 60hz modes you would not to make sure the VRR comparison isn't running at 120hz).

VRR doesn't seem to reduce input lag most of the time, which makes sense because that's not what it's for.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by orange808 »

I can't figure out what the 4k 120Hz has to do with a video scaler for legacy consoles. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by ZellSF »

1080p60 doesn't look good for VRR either. Unless you're complaining the discussion itself is off topic, but you were talking about turtles earlier.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by bobrocks95 »

ZellSF wrote:1080p60 doesn't look good for VRR either. Unless you're complaining the discussion itself is off topic, but you were talking about turtles earlier.
Spoiler
Image
Significantly improved on 19 displays from LG, Hisense, Samsung, and Vizio.
About the same and within margin of error on 9 displays.
Significantly worse on one 2020 Vizio.

Keep digging buddy.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by ZellSF »

You haven't filtered out native 120hz displays. They're laggier at 60hz because VRR runs at 120hz. You're not seeing a input lag benefit of VRR, but of high refresh rate. Filter by native 60hz displays to get the result I got.

Edit: also yeah the 2020 Vizio does indeed have significantly worse input lag with VRR, but that's the opposite of the point you're trying to make?
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by bobrocks95 »

Not seeing it. Same results with 60Hz panels- very similar or much better lag with VRR enabled. TCL 5 Series/S546 2021 QLED, Hisense U9DG. Why are you only looking at 60Hz panels anyways.

Whole point of VRR is you can feed it any refresh rate you want. Those lag numbers are going to be the same with a 60Hz signal from a potential future RetroTink.

Going to remind you that your original point was "it's only lower on LG OLEDs" which has already been proven wrong.
ZellSF wrote:Edit: also yeah the 2020 Vizio does indeed have significantly worse input lag with VRR, but that's the opposite of the point you're trying to make?
1/29 = 3.45%
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by ZellSF »

bobrocks95 wrote:Whole point of VRR is you can feed it any refresh rate you want. Those lag numbers are going to be the same with a 60Hz signal from a potential future RetroTink.
No? If you're updating at 60hz, you can't get lower than 8ms input lag (rtings.com measures in the middle of the screen). The numbers for VRR are literally impossible if you're feeding it a 60hz signal. VRR is not magic.
bobrocks95 wrote:Not seeing it. Same results with 60Hz panels- very similar or much better lag with VRR enabled. TCL 5 Series/S546 2021 QLED, Hisense U9DG. Why are you only looking at 60Hz panels anyways.
Hisense U9DG is 120hz native (and the other display was what, 1ms apart? What savings!). Do you not understand how to use the site you brought up?

And I did look at 120hz panels earlier. And as I said, the VRR results are worse.
bobrocks95 wrote: Going to remind you that your original point was "it's only lower on LG OLEDs" which has already been proven wrong.
Ok, I was wrong when I wrote that, let me correct myself: VRR is only perceptible more low lag on a very small minority of TVs and can equally often be higher lag.
bobrocks95 wrote:
ZellSF wrote:Edit: also yeah the 2020 Vizio does indeed have significantly worse input lag with VRR, but that's the opposite of the point you're trying to make?
1/29 = 3.45%
Not sure what you're saying here.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by bobrocks95 »

Hisense didn't show up as 120Hz on my filters because it doesn't properly handle any 120Hz input.
The TCL was 5ms faster in 4K with VRR.
A random 2020 Vizio remains the only display on there with worse lag in VRR. Every other one is about the same or better with VRR.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by ZellSF »

bobrocks95 wrote:Hisense didn't show up as 120Hz on my filters because it doesn't properly handle any 120Hz input.
It has less than 8ms input lag. That's only possible if it accepts a 120hz input.
bobrocks95 wrote:A random 2020 Vizio remains the only display on there with worse lag in VRR. Every other one is about the same or better with VRR.
Where there? On the list you had a screenshot of comparing 60hz with 120hz? That still says nothing about VRR lag.
bobrocks95 wrote:The TCL was 5ms faster in 4K with VRR.
I corrected my statement and said that only a small minority of TVs are perceptibly faster at VRR. That's part of the (very) small minority.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by zarkFR »

Mike shared on twitter his current plan for the Retrotink 4K (or should I say the Retrotin4k ?)

https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 9390606337

9 inputs, that's a lot of inputs for people already owning switchers, but hey why not !

And while I like the HD15 connectors, a lot of us will have to buy adapters or build ones (maybe we will be able to transfer sound on unused pins ?).
Also HD15 is reliable, cheap and available, but I can't help but think : if we have to buy adapters anyway, why not going further and even go for a smaller connector, like DIN ? So he could fit like 12 connectors on the back ? or make a separate switch were the scaler can identify the input and apply the right settings ? (Hello PixelFx)

HDMI input: for me, it makes it an instant-buy, this could be very nice for consoles like PS3, Xbox360, Wii U, even for the Nintendo Switch. We can dream of a good AA filter for 720p=>4K !

Front connectors: can be useful for some people (even if I think it's not sexy and got bashed on twitter for saying this :cry: )

So for me, first I didn't like it, but now I realize that the only thing that bother me are the 3.5mm jack, I like the RCA more :P (but it takes more place on the pcb).

PS: that's very nice of Mike sharing his design !
Last edited by zarkFR on Mon May 09, 2022 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by strayan »

zarkFR wrote:And while I like the HD15 connectors, a lot of us will have to buy adapters or build ones (maybe we will be able to transfer sound on unused pins ?). Also HD15 is reliable, cheap and available, but I can't help but think : if we have to buy adapters anyway, why not going further and even go for a smaller connector, like DIN ?
I feel like you understand the benefits of HD15 and then… you suggest mini-DIN as a suitable alternative :shock:
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by zarkFR »

strayan wrote:I feel like you understand the benefits of HD15 and then… you suggest DIN as a suitable alternative
Yeah I know, I was searching for a smaller connector than HD15 to express my idea (but my english is not very good).
Do you think HD15 is the best connector we could go for ? (I'm really asking).
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by Fudoh »

Do you think HD15 is the best connector we could go for ?
hardly. People (or those people within the target audience = those who are buying a $500 processor) with lot of scart sources do have scart switches already and the number of true VGA sources these days are really limited. For the wide majority of users the only need for RGBHV is a Dreamcast and with DC component cables available (or sync combiners for the scart switch), it's getting less and less requested anyway.

One set of physical component connections (along with RCA audio) is a must in my opinion. It should be a given that any buyer should be able to connect their source of choice without any additional adapters. I see this for composite, s-video, scart, VGA and HDMI, but to exclude component right here makes no sense.

I would suggest to get rid of two of the HD15 ports on the back and replace them with a row of five RCA connectors for component plus dedicated audio and if that space is not enough, I really wouldn't mind eving reducing to one HD15 on the back.

When Mike points to a HD15 to RCA breakout on twitter and says those are super cheap, then I understand his point, but it's neglecting the fact that it can be hard to find good ones with the right gender on both sides. Mike's pointing at a female HD15 (bad) to male RCAs (bad) and when google brings in the first "right" one at above $20 with limited local availability, then it makes HD15 a bad choice. I also want to point out that HD15 without the screws tightened is far less secure fit than component via RCA and tightening the screws down makes it a total pain to handle for any non-permanent setups.

For me a processor, that I like to use everyday, has to deliver a certain aesthetic as well, especially when connected. The X5 nails that perfectly with the HDMI and a full set of RCA ports going out to the back. And it lets me directly connect all my relevant sources without adapters. Just thinking of connecting a RCA component source to the back of the board shown here on Twitter makes me cringe. Makes me think of some Lumagens 15 years ago that used DVI-I for combined digital and analogue inputs.

Just my 2 cents....
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by fernan1234 »

Mike is a proven gigabrain so it's not surprising that he can see the superiority of HD-15 as the connector of choice that can do it all in the most optimal way. All other common connector types are available on that prototype except the usual 3 RCA connector for YPbPr (and RGsB technically).

I guess Mike could appease component users by bulk buying a bunch of appropriate adapter dongles and offering them as a cheap add-in at least for the first 4K order rounds, just like the composite-to-SCART adapter was an option for the 5X, s-video cables for the 2X, etc.

In regard to audio lines, stop feeding your audio into your scalers and your TV, and use external audio receivers/amps and speakers if at all possible instead.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by orange808 »

Adding an HD15/DE15 connector to the package wouldn't add much cost to a $500 machine. Just put one in the box. I assume most users can operate a pair of screws on the sides.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by Ed Oscuro »

mikechi2 wrote:A big challenge with rotation is inefficient memory access compared to regular readout. I'm not going to say rotation is off the table. There's probably enough memory bandwidth to do rotation for 240p sources, but it probably won't be slated for the initial release. Again, don't want to overpromise and under-deliver :)
Have you done any latency testing? I'm just curious - despite my earlier comments I don't really want to see a useful feature deep-sixed for no good reason =)
orange808 wrote:Here's the thing: with a zero lag sample and hold display that refreshes instantly, I get the frame on screen without display lag or raster/scanout latency. In this case, that means one total frame of latency from video processing and the display. The display still finishes "drawing" each frame at the same time a CRT would, because the "scanout" takes microseconds instead of ~17ms (faster than electron gun scanout).
TL;DR of my take - VRR doesn't seem to add much outside of specialized retrogaming contexts except a lot of cost for no benefit.

Grey-to-grey transition in newer panels is almost nothing, but MPRT measurements are higher. There also is a big impact from resolution and refresh (scanout is still done in CRT order, and it's not instant anyway), as input latency measurements scale with resolution (on average). Rtings in a February review:
Sadly, like most high refresh rate monitors, it has a low native resolution [...]
Rtings is upping their lag measurement methology to a new version coming soon to public articles (from version 1.1 to 1.2). Modern lag isn't dramatic compared to older tech with multi-frame latency, but 1 frame is the floor for rotation - and the panel is going to add its own latency to that, as always, in various ways. See the link to Blurbusters' high framerate captures above.

I'm not sure how VRR snuck into this discussion. When talking about scalers, I think we need to focus mainly on 60Hz modes and 4K resolution to get the best idea of the normal operating margins for retrogaming. Of course, if there's inconsistent frame pacing then it's helpful even for scaling. But if frame pacing is consistent it's not going to do much. And, of course, the inconsistent frame pacing has to be in the video signal - a classic system having slowdown doesn't matter if the actual delivered frame output is still at a consistent rate.

If you compare, say, a 120Hz VRR monitor with a 60Hz monitor, the VRR panel comes out on top for input lag because 120Hz has a faster cadence than 60Hz, not because of VRR. Instead look at the 120Hz numbers versus 60Hz, look at 60Hz numbers all the way across, and also look at 60Hz across different resolutions.

VRR has also been a value-add for the fastest modern panels (and hardware) which obscures that VRR only reduces latency from inconsistent frame pacing. After all it adds some additional communication overhead, although it's almost nothing. Even with VRR in the new HDMI spec I think it is well out of the reach of hobbyists and small shops for a good time to come. But, thankfully, it probably won't affect most retrogamer scaling either.

Not sure where "faster scanout than an electron gun" is coming from either. Doesn't seem plausible or even physically possible. Sure, 120Hz+ modern framerates can transition away from a color faster than some old slow-decay CRT phosphors but once again this doesn't look like much of an apples-to-apples comparison because the CRT probably has a better MPRT.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by orange808 »

Ed Oscuro wrote: Not sure where "faster scanout than an electron gun" is coming from either. Doesn't seem plausible or even physically possible.
I like fucking turtles.

lmao

Edit:

I will answer, since you're just going to push and push the issue. That's what the internet does.

At 60Hz, if you measure a latency number at the top of the screen and the difference between the bottom and top number (bottom number-top number) is less than 16 2/3 ms, the "scanout" happened faster than the physical mechanical scanout process of a CRT at 60Hz.

:-) Perfectly plausible and essentially common knowledge.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by dojima »

Fudoh wrote:One set of physical component connections (along with RCA audio) is a must in my opinion. It should be a given that any buyer should be able to connect their source of choice without any additional adapters.
+1

Though I will admit, this product is likely to be out of my budget anyway. Still very interested to follow where it goes however.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by Josh128 »

orange808 wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote: Not sure where "faster scanout than an electron gun" is coming from either. Doesn't seem plausible or even physically possible.
I like fucking turtles.

lmao

Edit:

I will answer, since you're just going to push and push the issue. That's what the internet does.

At 60Hz, if you measure a latency number at the top of the screen and the difference between the bottom and top number (bottom number-top number) is less than 16 2/3 ms, the "scanout" happened faster than the physical mechanical scanout process of a CRT at 60Hz.

:-) Perfectly plausible and essentially common knowledge.
People are not understanding what you are trying to say here.

My plasmas measure the same lag at any point on the screen so the difference is 0. That means absolutely nothing though because their input lag is still 37ms. If the initial signal source is analog, like all consoles up to X360 gen are, even if a digital display has 0 lag, it cant even begin to display any image at least until it has the complete image in its framebuffer. You will never exceed the speed of analog video direct feeding an analog display because the tail end of the image information always lags the front end by the amount of time corresponding to whatever the refresh rate is.

It is impossible to measure less than 16ms of display lag with any scaler, on any display, for the imagery at the bottom of a 60Hz frame sent via an analog signal, just as Unseen stated earlier. If you had a hypothetical 0ms lag scaler, a 0ms lag display, and a 0ms screen draw time, you would equal input lag of a direct feed to a CRT, but that is impossible today and will always be impossible. Im not sure what you are trying to argue about this. Im guessing you are talking about using a digital scaler, then using a DAC, then feeding a CRT vs the same digital scaler feeding a theoretical 0 lag, 0ms total screen refresh digital display. In that case, yes, you would have less lag than the scaler>DAC>CRT.

Who in this thread argued that wouldnt be the case?
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by Ed Oscuro »

orange808 wrote:At 60Hz, if you measure a latency number at the top of the screen and the difference between the bottom and top number (bottom number-top number) is less than 16 2/3 ms, the "scanout" happened faster than the physical mechanical scanout process of a CRT at 60Hz.
I like turtles too!

Why are we talking about top-bottom screen differences? I wasn't, and don't know why I would, since that's not the testing standard. Leo Bodnar says use the middle of the screen, and there the baseline reading is 8.33ms, CRT or LCD no matter.

Rtings has been using their current method of averaging data points since 2017 (correcting whatever I may have said earlier; I thought 1.2 was their latest testing revision). They don't use the Bodnar anymore but they are still reporting the average for the middle of the screen. Illustrating their input lag testing article is a plot of the Sony X940E: at 120Hz, its update cycle starts 10ms after the source, ends a bit after 18ms, and there we get the 8.33ms refresh cycle we'd expect from a 120Hz flat panel, or CRT, or whatever (and the average is 14.2ms). There's no data chunking; the signal is sent serially whether the endpoint is a flat panel or a CRT makes no difference. The panel literally can't start updating the middle of the screen faster than 8.3ms, because the data hasn't arrived yet.

Anyway, where are these mythical faster-than-CRT at 60Hz screens? Looking at Rtings, their fastest 60Hz results are:
Samsung Q80/Q80A QLED: 1080p, 9.0ms
Samsung The Terrace: 4K, 9.0ms.

These are damn fast, but they aren't faster than a CRT. Anyway I know you've done a lot of input latency testing and I am still not sure I understand why you're saying this.

* Minor nitpick: CRT scanout isn't mechanical; it's electromagnetic. Mechanical would be like a Baird televisor, or an earlier set.
Josh128 wrote:People are not understanding what you are trying to say here.
Agreed.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by Josh128 »

I think hes comparing a chain of console>0 lag scaler>0 lag digital display against a chain of console>0 lag scaler>DAC>CRT. I have no idea why hes talking about that, as nobody that I can see said anything about that in this thread. If not that, I have no idea what he's talking about.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by Ed Oscuro »

That doesn't explain the repeated comments about CRT vs flat panel lag which seem to be inaccurate, though.
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by MrRom92 »

Hey everyone, new to the forum here! I heard about Mike’s Tink4K “soft announcement” and figured it would be in my best interests to join here and follow along. Very exciting stuff. This will likely be my first scaler. I was casually following updates on the OSSC Pro as a lurker but it seems that project has stalled, and I was considering going with the 5X instead… but now with a Tink4K on the way at some point in the future, that’s a change of plans I don’t mind making! Consider me stoked
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by aleomark »

nothing about a release date?
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by bobrocks95 »

aleomark wrote:nothing about a release date?
https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 2338788352
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Re: RetroTink 4K All But Officially Announced ....

Post by bobrocks95 »

2023 launch anticipated, start saving up now: https://www.retrotink.com/post/introduc ... trotink-4k
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