Time to give up CRT's for me?

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Issac Zachary
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Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

I need space! That pretty much sums it up. 12ft x 12ft living space that is both a living room and a dining room for a family of four, youngest is 14. Our bedroom will be 6ft x 6ft, so no room in there unless I can convince my wife to sleep standing up.

The problem is I've played on friends' flat screens and have noticed that the controls were terribly "sticky." There are a lot of other reasons I like CRT's. Duck Hunt, for an example. But maybe all of those panel TV's had bad input lag, as I have no idea if they were even set to game mode or not. But I still have yet to play my favorite 8 bit games on a flat panel screen that doesn't feel weird and make me die like crazy. It's time for me to venture out of my confort zone.

So I have a 30" Sony Trinitron and a VGA monitor. I also have a 48" Sony Plasma. But it all has to go. We just don't have the room anymore.

We're downsizing clear down to one computer monitor, and that's that for the family entertainment center. We have a tiny living room anyway now.

We have a Wii, a Mister, a PS1, PS2 and a Fat PS3 and someone is supposed to give me a N64 in trade for another Wii but hasn't yet. The boys are somewhat interested in a Switch but haven't really said so... so that could be a future console.

The screen is pretty much decided... An HP ENVY 23 Beats Audio all-in-one with an HDMI input. Let's hope it doesn't have terrible input lag.

So I guess the question is, what is the best way to hook stuff up? Play all my PS1, 2 and 3 games on the PS3? What about controller lag on the PS3? I've never played a PS2 or PS1 game on the PS3 actually as it was given to me and I never have gotten around to playing it. I'm thinking of getting a Retro Tink for the Wii and potentially the N64, so I could play the PS1 and PS2 with it if I get one.

We will be keeping most stuff in storage, so hopefully I can keep a CRT or both and pull one out in the future for special ocasssions or if we move or something. I'll probably only have one console out at a time so no need for an HDMI switch. I guess I better get the Retro Tink and just start testing everything to see what works the best.

I know that videogames and CRT's aren't the most important things in the world. Having a place to live as rent triples and quadruples is much more important. But it's hard to imagine me playing some videogames with the wife and kids without a good old fashioned CRT.
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Kez
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Kez »

CRTs are obviously the gold standard for input lag, but plenty of modern displays are comparable. Gaming monitors in particular can be extremely low latency, but monitors in general will perform better than TVs in my experience. That said, even TVs are usually fine except for the most insanely precise reaction based games, good TVs are around 8-12ms lag which is rarely enought to impact gaming. Many times I have been to a friend's house, a "technical" person who has been playing games for decades, only to find that they hadn't enabled game mode on their TV, so I wouldn't be surprised if your experiences are similar. Also if you were playing on an emulator, that may have introduced additional latency.

It sounds like your display is already settled - I don't know much about it. As it's an AiO PC that just has an HDMI input, I would be concerned that it may be lacking in monitor-only configuration options or general signal compatibility as its primary function is to just act as a display for the PC. I have no actual knowledge or experience with the device though!

As far as hooking stuff up, the MiSTer is easy and low lag. HDMI, set to the display's native resolution (likely 1080p) should be just fine. PS3 should also be okay. PS1/2 and Wii are a bit tougher. You will need a device like an OSSC or RetroTink to act as a DAC and scale the signal. RT5x would work great with all your analogue devices, OSSC is a bit more trouble, here's a quick rundown:

PS1/N64: OSSC should work pretty well here as long as the TV accepts the signal.
Wii: Mostly 480p, OSSC can convert this to digital 480p or 960p - should look okay but your monitor again may struggle with the signal, or do a poor job of scaling it.
PS2: The most troublesome, as most games are 480i. OSSC can't do much in terms of deinterlacing, just pass through (which your monitor is unlikely to handle well/at all) or bob deinterlacing (which doesn't look great and may cause image retention on your display).

Again, the RetroTINK5x will work great with all these and should produce a nice 1080p image that pretty much any modern display will love. It also has a bunch of great CRT filters which may appeal to you!

If you are a bit more handy, or know someone who is, you could look into putting together a GBS-Control with a VGA->HDMI adapter. This would also do a pretty good job with all these machines and is very cheap if you are prepared to do some DIY.

In terms of PS1/PS2 on PS3 - my preference is original hardware so can't really comment much there but I'm sure there is a recent thread on that very topic which may be worth checking out.
spmbx
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by spmbx »

For me if space would be such an issue that i wouldnt even be able to put a 14" CRT somewhere i'd just switch to handheld gaming altogether. Switch, steam deck, hell even ipad with a controller and geforce now/gamepass or laptop.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by maxtherabbit »

maybe quit playing games for a while and focus on providing a better life for your family
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

Kez wrote:CRTs are obviously the gold standard for input lag, but plenty of modern displays are comparable. Gaming monitors in particular can be extremely low latency, but monitors in general will perform better than TVs in my experience. That said, even TVs are usually fine except for the most insanely precise reaction based games, good TVs are around 8-12ms lag which is rarely enought to impact gaming. Many times I have been to a friend's house, a "technical" person who has been playing games for decades, only to find that they hadn't enabled game mode on their TV, so I wouldn't be surprised if your experiences are similar. Also if you were playing on an emulator, that may have introduced additional latency.
Thanks for the info! That actually helps a lot. I've heard and read that input latencies of a couple frames or less don't impact gaming in anyway unless it's a lightgun game or something similar. But I just haven't had a chance to try this stuff myself.
Kez wrote:It sounds like your display is already settled - I don't know much about it. As it's an AiO PC that just has an HDMI input, I would be concerned that it may be lacking in monitor-only configuration options or general signal compatibility as its primary function is to just act as a display for the PC. I have no actual knowledge or experience with the device though!
Maybe I can make something else work if this doesn't workout. The AIO PC has a separate button and menu when in HDMI input mode and supposedly functions like a stand alone monitor. It also has good built in speakers for an AIO. I think this is the most logical way to go. I do want to test things on it before we're 100% decided on it.
Kez wrote:As far as hooking stuff up, the MiSTer is easy and low lag. HDMI, set to the display's native resolution (likely 1080p) should be just fine. PS3 should also be okay. PS1/2 and Wii are a bit tougher. You will need a device like an OSSC or RetroTink to act as a DAC and scale the signal. RT5x would work great with all your analogue devices, OSSC is a bit more trouble, here's a quick rundown:

PS1/N64: OSSC should work pretty well here as long as the TV accepts the signal.
Wii: Mostly 480p, OSSC can convert this to digital 480p or 960p - should look okay but your monitor again may struggle with the signal, or do a poor job of scaling it.
PS2: The most troublesome, as most games are 480i. OSSC can't do much in terms of deinterlacing, just pass through (which your monitor is unlikely to handle well/at all) or bob deinterlacing (which doesn't look great and may cause image retention on your display).

Again, the RetroTINK5x will work great with all these and should produce a nice 1080p image that pretty much any modern display will love. It also has a bunch of great CRT filters which may appeal to you!

If you are a bit more handy, or know someone who is, you could look into putting together a GBS-Control with a VGA->HDMI adapter. This would also do a pretty good job with all these machines and is very cheap if you are prepared to do some DIY.

In terms of PS1/PS2 on PS3 - my preference is original hardware so can't really comment much there but I'm sure there is a recent thread on that very topic which may be worth checking out.
Thank you! So you think the Tink 5x is the way to go? The 2x is cheaper, but I guess I need to look at the pros and cons here.
spmbx wrote:For me if space would be such an issue that i wouldnt even be able to put a 14" CRT somewhere i'd just switch to handheld gaming altogether. Switch, steam deck, hell even ipad with a controller and geforce now/gamepass or laptop.
Ya, I'm more of a gaming-with-friends gamer. Even single player games we like to take turns and play. It's more like a movie night for us when whe have videogame night.
maxtherabbit wrote:maybe quit playing games for a while and focus on providing a better life for your family
I/we don't play but maybe a couple hours once a week at most. This year I haven't played but maybe once a month. Focus on providing for the family means making some big decisions. We've had to give up a piano, a dining room table and chairs, all our TV's a couch and several other things. I'm almost to the point that maybe we don't even have room for a videogame console. But death and inflation have taken a toll on us durring this pandemic.
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

Issac Zachary wrote:
Kez wrote:CRTs are obviously the gold standard for input lag, but plenty of modern displays are comparable. Gaming monitors in particular can be extremely low latency, but monitors in general will perform better than TVs in my experience. That said, even TVs are usually fine except for the most insanely precise reaction based games, good TVs are around 8-12ms lag which is rarely enought to impact gaming. Many times I have been to a friend's house, a "technical" person who has been playing games for decades, only to find that they hadn't enabled game mode on their TV, so I wouldn't be surprised if your experiences are similar. Also if you were playing on an emulator, that may have introduced additional latency.
Thanks for the info! That actually helps a lot. I've heard and read that input latencies of a couple frames or less don't impact gaming in anyway unless it's a lightgun game or something similar. But I just haven't had a chance to try this stuff myself.
Kez wrote:It sounds like your display is already settled - I don't know much about it. As it's an AiO PC that just has an HDMI input, I would be concerned that it may be lacking in monitor-only configuration options or general signal compatibility as its primary function is to just act as a display for the PC. I have no actual knowledge or experience with the device though!
Maybe I can make something else work if this doesn't workout. The AIO PC has a separate button and menu when in HDMI input mode and supposedly functions like a stand alone monitor. It also has good built in speakers for an AIO. I think this is the most logical way to go. I do want to test things on it before we're 100% decided on it.
Kez wrote:As far as hooking stuff up, the MiSTer is easy and low lag. HDMI, set to the display's native resolution (likely 1080p) should be just fine. PS3 should also be okay. PS1/2 and Wii are a bit tougher. You will need a device like an OSSC or RetroTink to act as a DAC and scale the signal. RT5x would work great with all your analogue devices, OSSC is a bit more trouble, here's a quick rundown:

PS1/N64: OSSC should work pretty well here as long as the TV accepts the signal.
Wii: Mostly 480p, OSSC can convert this to digital 480p or 960p - should look okay but your monitor again may struggle with the signal, or do a poor job of scaling it.
PS2: The most troublesome, as most games are 480i. OSSC can't do much in terms of deinterlacing, just pass through (which your monitor is unlikely to handle well/at all) or bob deinterlacing (which doesn't look great and may cause image retention on your display).

Again, the RetroTINK5x will work great with all these and should produce a nice 1080p image that pretty much any modern display will love. It also has a bunch of great CRT filters which may appeal to you!

If you are a bit more handy, or know someone who is, you could look into putting together a GBS-Control with a VGA->HDMI adapter. This would also do a pretty good job with all these machines and is very cheap if you are prepared to do some DIY.

In terms of PS1/PS2 on PS3 - my preference is original hardware so can't really comment much there but I'm sure there is a recent thread on that very topic which may be worth checking out.
Thank you! So you think the Tink 5x is the way to go? The 2x is cheaper, but I guess I need to look at the pros and cons here.

I prefer original equipment too. I was originally planning on getting an Atari 2600, a NES and a SNES, but the Mister seemed to make more sense.
spmbx wrote:For me if space would be such an issue that i wouldnt even be able to put a 14" CRT somewhere i'd just switch to handheld gaming altogether. Switch, steam deck, hell even ipad with a controller and geforce now/gamepass or laptop.
Ya, I'm more of a gaming-with-friends gamer. Even single player games we like to take turns and play. It's more like a movie night for us when whe have videogame night.
maxtherabbit wrote:maybe quit playing games for a while and focus on providing a better life for your family
I/we don't play but maybe a couple hours once a week at most. This year I haven't played but maybe once a month. Focus on providing for the family means making some big decisions. We've had to give up a piano, a dining room table and chairs, all our TV's a couch and several other things. I'm almost to the point that maybe we don't even have room for a videogame console. But death and inflation have taken a toll on us durring this pandemic.
jd213
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by jd213 »

Maybe see if you can store the CRT at a relative's or friend's house for a while. It's just going to get harder and harder to find CRTs worth gaming on, unfortunately. Lag might not be an issue on some flatscreens but I'd really miss having a CRT if I had to give mine up, even if I don't use them as often as I'd like.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

maxtherabbit wrote:maybe quit playing games for a while and focus on providing a better life for your family
I don't like to get into food fights but that was kind of a shitty thing to write, Max, and not called for either.

@ Issac:

Is the HP Envy 23 something that you just have around? Unless you have got a seriously good deal I would not even bother buying one, not even for $100. It's a 9-year-old PC with quite a lousy screen by modern standards and I bet even a cheapo $100 Walmart 4K TV will give you a better experience. Of course, a small form factor PC + a standalone screen will be a bit more expensive, but also more future-proof. Depending on whether you're needing something with a 23" form factor or need something larger you have different options available. With some luck, maybe you can do a swap with somebody in your area looking for a 30" Sony screen.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by maxtherabbit »

Ed Oscuro wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:maybe quit playing games for a while and focus on providing a better life for your family
I don't like to get into food fights but that was kind of a shitty thing to write, Max, and not called for either.
I really wasn't intending to attack the guy, just trying to inject some perspective

If I found myself living in a 12x12 room I'd have a single minded focus on improving my situation
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buttersoft
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by buttersoft »

maxtherabbit wrote:If I found myself living in a 12x12 room I'd have a single minded focus on improving my situation
I presumed Isaac was moving to somewhere like Japan or New York. Could be he's providing an amazing opportunity for his family :)
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

jd213 wrote:Maybe see if you can store the CRT at a relative's or friend's house for a while. It's just going to get harder and harder to find CRTs worth gaming on, unfortunately. Lag might not be an issue on some flatscreens but I'd really miss having a CRT if I had to give mine up, even if I don't use them as often as I'd like.
Good point! And I do hope we get into a bigger place some time in the future, so you're right on keeping a CRT (or two) stored somewhere, maybe at a friend's house.
Ed Oscuro wrote:Is the HP Envy 23 something that you just have around? Unless you have got a seriously good deal I would not even bother buying one, not even for $100. It's a 9-year-old PC with quite a lousy screen by modern standards and I bet even a cheapo $100 Walmart 4K TV will give you a better experience. Of course, a small form factor PC + a standalone screen will be a bit more expensive, but also more future-proof. Depending on whether you're needing something with a 23" form factor or need something larger you have different options available. With some luck, maybe you can do a swap with somebody in your area looking for a 30" Sony screen.
Yes, I have a few old computers "just laying around." The Envy is one of them. It's either that or an even older desktop with a second gen Core i7 and a 2 Samsung Syncmaster T-260 Monitors that someone was throwing in the trash and I asked if I could just take it instead. I do have my own Surface GO and the wife has a somewhat newer laptop, none of which are Windows 11 compatible, even the Surface I bought brand new from Microsoft 2 years ago.

We've never owned a smart TV. We bought a newer 42" flatscreen on a Black Friday a few years back and did not like it at all. I didn't try to game on it, but the colors were terribly washed out with it glowing pretty badly and the worst speakers ever. We did have a sound bar, but one day the sound bar just stopped working. So my wife actually begged me to do something different, so I found the free plasma TV and had been using that.
maxtherabbit wrote:I really wasn't intending to attack the guy, just trying to inject some perspective

If I found myself living in a 12x12 room I'd have a single minded focus on improving my situation
buttersoft wrote:I presumed Isaac was moving to somewhere like Japan or New York. Could be he's providing an amazing opportunity for his family :)

You did come across as blunt, not to tone police you.
Attacked! OH no! :lol:

No worries! It does sound like my only goal in life is to game at the cost of my wife and kids! It's complicated story, one that I'm not even really allowed to explain entirely online.
Last edited by Issac Zachary on Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Washed-out colors may be due to a number of things - including the ambient lighting around the display, the signal fed in, and familiarity with over-saturated content seeming normal. Glow makes it sound like an IPS model, possibly defective. I'm used to IPS screen glow and it's gotten better in recent years, but some indvidual sets have this worse than others, and some models feature weird color casts. Of course, if you've got that spare grand lying around an OLED will take care of all of these problems :lol:

I did a fair number of highscore submissions to Shmups Forum events with a screen that old and older - bad submissions to be sure, but the player can be blamed for that, not the screen. For reference I think a pretty top-of-the-line gaming screen can be found on sale these days around $250-ish at the 27" size or even 32". If you're willing to do with something a few years older, $100-$150 seems to be the going rate for slightly older but still serviceable models. Worth mentioning that you get diminishing returns on 60fps blur with these gaming screens' tech improvements. The newer models seem best, but they might not be that much better than slightly older ones.
Issac Zachary wrote:It does sound like my only goal in life is to game at the cost of my wife and kids!
I've learned that it's always a good idea to keep family stuff off the 'net. And also that intentionally-seeming unsolicited advice ends up going over poorly. You sounded pretty reasonable to me, really!
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

Ed Oscuro wrote:For reference I think a pretty top-of-the-line gaming screen can be found on sale these days around $250-ish at the 27" size or even 32". If you're willing to do with something a few years older, $100-$150 seems to be the going rate for slightly older but still serviceable models. Worth mentioning that you get diminishing returns on 60fps blur with these gaming screens' tech improvements. The newer models seem best, but they might not be that much better than slightly older ones.
Good advice! I think those prices may work too.

60fps blur makes me think of something I heard called BFI, but I have no experience with it other than CRT's natural BFI.

We could use the 2nd gen Core i7 desktop with such a monitor, although it only has DVI ports and also at some point we will probably need a new computer since none of these are Windows 11 compatible.

Unless we keep these old computers. I've been dabling in running Linux on them with fairly good results. And as far as gaming goes, the only PC games we've played are the Portal games, and those will run on Linux. They even run pretty well on my Surface GO with it's 6W CPU.
Ed Oscuro wrote:I've learned that it's always a good idea to keep family stuff off the 'net. And also that intentionally-seeming unsolicited advice ends up going over poorly. You sounded pretty reasonable to me, really!
Also a good point!

I take unsolicited advice as being well intentioned even if it sounds harsh. After all, it's not bad advice even if it sounds judgemental.

But yes, there's no need to explain the whole back story, just what the gaming problem is and if there's any solution or support for it.
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Kez
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Kez »

Issac Zachary wrote:So you think the Tink 5x is the way to go? The 2x is cheaper, but I guess I need to look at the pros and cons here.
It's a tough one, as you don't have all that many systems to hook up. The RT5x really becomes a great value proposition I think the more consoles you have. It definitely does the PS2 more justice than most of the other options. You've got the MiSTer, that covers a huge number of games (PS1 is also shaping up surprisingly well on there). My personal preference is the make the best of what I have, and then if I really notice what I am missing then I upgrade, so maybe just be aware of what the RT5x offers and see how you get on without it. Try PS2 on PS3, see how PS1 shapes up on MiSTer.

The RT2x is a great device, but it is only 2x, meaning if your display does a bad job with 480p then you're out of luck. It also doesn't have motion adaptive deinterlacing, so you would still have issues with PS2. The RT5x is an easy one to recommend because it will pretty much work with every console, and can produce a nice standardised signal that works with the vast majority of displays - but it is expensive!
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

Thanks for the info on the RetroTink 5x and 2x! I do need to do some research, but being here helps too.

A crazy idea just popped up in my head but might not pass with the wife. What if I got a swamp cooler type box, cut out the side that faces the house and put the CRT in it and hung it outside a window... :mrgreen:
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by fernan1234 »

Kez wrote:The RT2x is a great device, but it is only 2x, meaning if your display does a bad job with 480p then you're out of luck. It also doesn't have motion adaptive deinterlacing, so you would still have issues with PS2. The RT5x is an easy one to recommend because it will pretty much work with every console, and can produce a nice standardised signal that works with the vast majority of displays - but it is expensive!
Just want to add something to this, if you go for a 2X and use its bob deinterlace combined with scanlines you'll get a picture that looks a lot like 480i on a CRT, though darkened by the scanlines. Since you're used to CRT all these years you may actually prefer this over adaptive deinterlacing (I do). However, this kind of bob deinterlace and filter with alternating lines can cause temporary image retention specifically on IPS panels, so if you go with one of those you'd want to keep that in mind.

Another advantage of the 2X is that it's as lagless as it gets.
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by kitty666cats »

GBS Control w/ a VGA to HDMI is probably the most economical bet for the non-MiSTER stuff. I’d say it’s a close call between RetroTink 5X or that one. Maybe consider how often you use the consoles that don’t already have MiSTER cores. Could be worth selling them & just retro-gaming on the MiSTER / using emulation from a computer when you get the urge for some N64 or PS2. Depends on what games you like! People worry a bit excessively about lag, it’s important for games of this forum’s namesake genre and fighters, if you’re really into those. But if you just casually play platformers, RPGs, etc… could downsize your collection of consoles altogether 8)
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

Thanks fernan1234 and kitty666cats!

Personally I'm mostly into retro 2D platformers, Mario, Sonic, etc but am also a fan of PS1 games like Crash Bandacoot and racing games like Gran Turismo series and arcade style driving games like Crazy Taxi. I want to get the Cruisn' games and similar for the N64 if I can get my hands on one. The wife loves Tetris type games.

My experience with LCD hasn't been great. For some reason even playing a friend's switch with NES and SNES games like SMB1 and Super Metroid felt off on the Switch's own screen. But maybe it was more of the akward controls that were bothering me. However, my Gameboy Advance doesn't bother me even with platformers like SMB Delux and Super Mario Advance.
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by fernan1234 »

What felt off on the Switch is likely the lag, since after all those are all running on software emulators, and not very good ones in fact.

People like us who have been using CRTs all of our lives can be very sensitive to added lag even in small amounts. I can't stand it on any kind of games, even with RPGs and such I hate navigating menus that feel sluggish. There's also some RPGs that include timed button press mechanics.

After picking a retro scaler with the lowest lag possible what you'll want to make sure of is that the monitor/TV can display the given input (either 480p or 1080p or both) without any processing. Most displays don't process inputs labeled as "PC" and such.
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

I've seen where the Switch has bad emulation for N64 games on Youtube. I didn't know that it was laggy on 2D games too.

Something else I found very laggrivating was hooking a console up directly to a flat screen TV.
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by fernan1234 »

Issac Zachary wrote:Something else I found very laggrivating was hooking a console up directly to a flat screen TV.

Oh yeah, this is one of the worst things you can do, sadly it feels intuitive to do so and probably one of the things that have turned off many people from retro games the past decade. This is particularly bad because most flat screen TVs treat these signals as interlaced video which is the laggiest for those TVs to process.

The NES and SNES emulators on Switch may not be as bad as the N64 in terms of obvious inaccuracies, but they're still behind free and open source emulators available for PC, but setting accuracy aside they will always have added lag compared to hardware emulation and of course original hardware.
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kitty666cats
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by kitty666cats »

It’s weird, I have never had issues beating games like Contra and Double Dragon II via an NES’s composite plugged directly into a crappy LCD TV. I think that experience has made me overly-critical of the community’s obsession with avoiding lag, haha. I’m of the opinion that it’s really not a issue that people couldn’t adapt to within minutes, save for the fastest & most hectic of games. But yeah, I’m just going on a dumb tangent haha. OP, does your flat screen TV have component inputs? If so, a HDMI converter after a GBS-C unit probably wouldn’t even be needed. Meanwhile, RetroTink 5x would be a purchase that has more longevity since Mike has been releasing so many cool firmware updates.
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

The wifey and I spent an hour or so rearranging the living room. It looks like there might be a chance to keep the CRT. It's in a cabinet with wheels and when we turn it around the Plasma TV is on the other side.
kitty666cats wrote:It’s weird, I have never had issues beating games like Contra and Double Dragon II via an NES’s composite plugged directly into a crappy LCD TV. I think that experience has made me overly-critical of the community’s obsession with avoiding lag, haha. I’m of the opinion that it’s really not a issue that people couldn’t adapt to within minutes, save for the fastest & most hectic of games. But yeah, I’m just going on a dumb tangent haha.
I don't know if it was lag or what was bothering me. I got through Super Metroid and finished of Kraid, much more than just a few minutes, but sure had a hard time doing it on the Switch's screen. I fired up the Super Nintendo on the CRT and and everything went buttery smooth. I don't know why, maybe it was more of the weird buttons.

I've also played SMB3 on a friend's flat screen on a Switch and had a terrible time, especially world 8. I got home and on the Super Nintendo had no problem finishing the game in the All-Stars version in a fraction of the time. (the SNES became a gift for a friend when I got the Mister). Why? The controls felt weird. Was it lag? Was it the joycons? I really don't know.

I can play either game on my old Plasma via S-Video and they feel better than on the Switch, but not as good as on the CRT. So maybe it's the Joycons that mess me up and not the lag. I really don't know.
kitty666cats wrote: OP, does your flat screen TV have component inputs? If so, a HDMI converter after a GBS-C unit probably wouldn’t even be needed. Meanwhile, RetroTink 5x would be a purchase that has more longevity since Mike has been releasing so many cool firmware updates.
The screen I was planning on using in the first post has only an HDMI input. The Plasma has composite, S-Video, component and HDMI. The CRT has composite, S-Video and RGB. The other CRT has VGA.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

The Switch has a bit of inherent lag in some applications, and the joycons are generally mediocre at best as far as controls go compared to other current console controllers... really there's a few sources where your "lag" could be coming from:

a) The joycons themselves. They're decent, but not instant as far as I know.

b) The program on the Switch itself. I don't know how good the Switch's emulation is; I've messed with the NES offerings briefly, but not enough to really be knowledgeable here.

c) The TV settings could be laggy. Modern TVs have a LOT of stuff you want to turn off which helps reduce input lag. Some have a Game Mode option you can find which turns off any processing stuff which adds lag, so make sure if you're playing on a flat screen that you've optimized the options.

d) Maybe you just had a bad night on SMB3 / Super Metroid? Who knows.

In my experience, flatscreens nowadays aren't too bad at all with classic consoles, but you want to make sure you've turned off any of the processing options that are there, and have enabled Game Mode if your TV has it. I'd blame the Switch for input lag sooner than I'd blame a properly configured TV or monitor.
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote:The Switch has a bit of inherent lag in some applications, and the joycons are generally mediocre at best as far as controls go compared to other current console controllers... really there's a few sources where your "lag" could be coming from:

a) The joycons themselves. They're decent, but not instant as far as I know.

b) The program on the Switch itself. I don't know how good the Switch's emulation is; I've messed with the NES offerings briefly, but not enough to really be knowledgeable here.

c) The TV settings could be laggy. Modern TVs have a LOT of stuff you want to turn off which helps reduce input lag. Some have a Game Mode option you can find which turns off any processing stuff which adds lag, so make sure if you're playing on a flat screen that you've optimized the options.

d) Maybe you just had a bad night on SMB3 / Super Metroid? Who knows.

In my experience, flatscreens nowadays aren't too bad at all with classic consoles, but you want to make sure you've turned off any of the processing options that are there, and have enabled Game Mode if your TV has it. I'd blame the Switch for input lag sooner than I'd blame a properly configured TV or monitor.
With the SMB3 on Switch episode, I told my buddy that maybe his TV was laggy as he was the other player and was also having a difficult time. He swore that his TV was set up for low lag, but we didn't get into it anymore than that as he seemed kind of offended that I would even mention his TV wasn't set up propperly.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Weird that he'd get offended about it; it'd have taken a couple minutes to confirm the settings were set to whatever Game / low latency mode if available, and it's just as possible that the TV might have reset itself without him knowing if it's an internet connected TV and did a firmware update or who knows what... wouldn't have hurt to check. :(
gray117
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by gray117 »

TBH I'm a pretty large proponent of NOT pushing the crt solutions anymore. Unless you have some or you are prepared for (and kind of enjoy) the hassles involved it's a bit like recommending someone buy a classic car instead of a new one or even anything you can find at a regular used dealer... And the worst thing is; you're prone to making someone feel like they're 'doing it wrong' or missing out.

Having said that, it's not like it's totally hassle free going the modern routes - still worth doing your research on viewing angles and input lag. The good news is that most reputable screens and manufacturers have basically cracked game mode. So, yes, I rarely use my crts, as much as I enjoy doing so, when I do and key to this has been me being prepared to fiddle with an OSSC, and having finally a 4k low input screen on a mount I can rotate.

Tips:
You might have to check the tv stays in game mode ('helpful' tvs, especially samsungs in my experience, seem to try and adjust to what it thinks is connected), and depending on your devices there's often still some messing around if anything isn't hdmi; so a scaler if you've got any old hardware (OSSC can be pot luck, retrotink, a bit more money, but typically more straightforward)... and all of a sudden it's not quite so cheap, you need some more remotes and cables, and an idea of what it is you want to try and do.
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:Weird that he'd get offended about it...
Meanwhile unless you're nerdy like us people will absolutely flip their shit when they're 500-2000 down and the stuff doesn't just work as you want it to when you press on - ESPECIALLY if they don't quite understand what they're doing.
Last edited by gray117 on Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Issac Zachary
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by Issac Zachary »

gray117 wrote:Unless you have some or you are prepared for (and kind of enjoy) the hassles involved it's a bit like recommending someone buy a classic car instead of a new one or even anything you can find at a regular used dealer...
I'm more like the guy that owns a classic car and nothing else.

Right now my TV's are

1. CRT Sony Trinitron NTSC with RGB mod.
2. CRT VGA Monitor, I can't remember exactly the brand.
3. A 40 some inch Sony Plasma with a bit of burn-in along the bottom.

I also love soldering and tinkering. I probably enjoy that more than actually playing the games.

Other than that we don't have another TV except a 40 some inch LCD that we don't like and that's in storage, waiting to go to an extended family member. My wife prefers the burned-in Plasma over that LCD. I've thought about getting a newer TV, maybe even an OLED. Nobody in the family has ever mentioned that we need a new TV though.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by maxtherabbit »

Issac Zachary wrote:
Other than that we don't have another TV except a 40 some inch LCD that we don't like and that's in storage, waiting to go to an extended family member. My wife prefers the burned-in Plasma over that LCD. I've thought about getting a newer TV, maybe even an OLED. Nobody in the family has ever mentioned that we need a new TV though.
ok based
gray117
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Re: Time to give up CRT's for me?

Post by gray117 »

I must admit a certain fascination with the situation.... And yeah I'm thinking there's simply no need for any of the old hardware a lot of us enjoy.

Honestly, a retropie,/mister, a switch, and a laptop would be what I'd go for.

Yes I'm kind of ignoring ps2/ps3/wii, but your kids won't care if you have a switch, there's the retropie for everything up to ps1, and the last thing you want is physical media and more than 2 sets of controllers.

Screen wise I probably would have to say 32 inch 1080p or sharing reasons... Assuming not needed for work there's no point going 4k, and really we're trying to get this as plug and play as possible, which 4k does not help with.

This all reduces the footprint and allows you to separate or combine your interests as your family members may desire; without needing to ask dad if it's OK to unplug or replug something, nothing fragile or tricky to use, no weird settings to use, and minimises any possible clutter.

If you want anything more sophisticated (either new or retro) you can do that via laptop as well as a anything more productive... Depending on taste/budget a 3060 in it and it can run anything contemporary at 1080p. And you can down spec from there depending on your tastes.... If you can still find them a 1060/1660 will do fine for anything up to the latest games, and has been my recommendation for anyone who didn't want to shell out for a 20 or 30 series during the mining/covid era. But certainly I wouldn't go higher than a **60 at any gen for a laptop due to heat/noise/lack of benefit reasons.

But yeah the last thing you need is a crt :)
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