XRGB-3

[BuckoA51]

The PC in is supposed to be a pure pass-through, that is it doesn't affect the signal at all (although it did for me). The Dsub15 on the back works the same as the game in, i.e it up converts your old consoles to 31khz RGBHV VGA.

Having established that you want a VGA switch in order to route your Dreamcast and your DVD player around the XRGB, surely the output from said VGA switch goes directly to your TV. How then can you then attach another games console (PC Engine or Saturn) to said VGA switch that you want to route to your XRGB3?! Or do you propose a matrix switch that connects either output to TV or XRGB3? Sounds needlessly complicated.

[Rock Man]

The PC in is supposed to be a pure pass-through, that is it doesn't affect the signal at all (although it did for me). The Dsub15 on the back works the same as the game in, i.e it up converts your old consoles to 31khz RGBHV VGA.

The blue VGA port is way too sensitive to noise interference or at least this is what Fudoh told me over a PM. Hence the light-weight static cloud that curses my games. Once again, the PC IN hub does not display this cloud however it causes objects to look jaggy. The bright-ness in that signal is way too high causing a glaring result. I connected VGA both raw through my TV and through the XRGB-3's DSub15 (blue port) and I don't get a glaring picture with jagged graphics, moreover the latter input gives me faint wavy signal with the game picture. I'm going by what my TV projects and it only understands the XRGB in this manner.

That said, Fudoh's comment regarding DSub15 port. Apparently I can at least connect the Saturn without the wavy effect. So I'm thinking three VGA inputs is enough for what I'm trying to do. Which involves connecting the XRGB-3 > DVD Player > Dreamcast all through the switch matrix.

Having established that you want a VGA switch in order to route your Dreamcast and your DVD player around the XRGB, surely the output from said VGA switch goes directly to your TV. How then can you then attach another games console (PC Engine or Saturn) to said VGA switch that you want to route to your XRGB3?! Or do you propose a matrix switch that connects either output to TV or XRGB3? Sounds needlessly complicated.

Dude, I'm only connecting the Saturn through XRGB (RGB IN). XRGB is going input on the switcher, just like the DVD player and DC. I don't see where it gets complicated.

[BuckoA51]

D in 2 (which is what I assume you mean by blue VGA in) is only affected by noise if you use d-terminal/component cables with it.

Get a composite sync cable and attach your Saturn to the Game In, the picture will be perfect then.

Dude, I'm only connecting the Saturn through XRGB (RGB IN). XRGB is going input on the switcher, just like the DVD player and DC. I don't see where it gets complicated.

It's round about here....

I was just gonna chalk it and grab a VGA switch matrix that takes my DVD player which outputs YUV, DC, XRGB-3, while the other few ports are reserved for the 15 khz Saturn and PC Engine because you can use RGB cables on them. Make sense? Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

When you talk about a matrix switch (matrix to TV and XRGB3?!) that takes PC Engine, Saturn, and outputs XRGB-3, DC, DVD player.

Never mind, let's get back on topic

[Fudoh]

When you talk about a matrix switch

using a VGA matrix switch is cool, because you can put the SLG3000 into one loop of the matrix, so you can go XRGB > Switch > SLG3000 > Switch > TV without the need for multiple machines.

[fagin]

Off topic for the XRGB-3 but on topic of the XRGB-2+.

For XRGB-2+ owners....
Taking DSUB out from the 2+ via a DSUB->RGBHV phono lead in to the DVDO EDGE, does help to clean up the "wavy" output of the 2+ at the cost of taking away a minor amount of sharpness to the image.

[Rock Man]

D in 2 (which is what I assume you mean by blue VGA in) is only affected by noise if you use d-terminal/component cables with it.

Get a composite sync cable and attach your Saturn to the Game In, the picture will be perfect then.

Remember I ran out of slots on the SCART matrix (do you propose I swap my SCART switch for just the Saturn SCART cable, which translates to continuous cable swapping?), though I will take your advice on the Composite Sync SCART lead. I'll just have to grab another SCART switcher, which is dirt cheap anyways. I thought about the d-terminal notion and checked back there, I discovered the d-terminal converter which came with the XRGB-3 was still plugged in albeit nothing was plugged behind it, so I unplugged the DT adapter. Problem still persists. I wonder if there is a setting other than A/D I can adjust that will kill interference.

Either way, trust me when I say it's easier to just work the Dreamcast around the XRGB.

Dude, I'm only connecting the Saturn through XRGB (RGB IN). XRGB is going input on the switcher, just like the DVD player and DC. I don't see where it gets complicated.

It's round about here....

Well I've given up trying to connect the Saturn through D in 2 port so that's out the way. Now what's so confusing about my wanting to hook-up DVD/XRGB-3/Dreamcast to a VGA selector? The DC-to-XRGB is giving me problems so I'm connecting it away from the XRGB-3.

I was just gonna chalk it and grab a VGA switch matrix that takes my DVD player which outputs YUV, DC, XRGB-3, while the other few ports are reserved for the 15 khz Saturn and PC Engine because you can use RGB cables on them. Make sense? Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

When you talk about a matrix switch (matrix to TV and XRGB3?!) that takes PC Engine, Saturn, and outputs XRGB-3, DC, DVD player.

Huh!? I wasn't implying a matrix switch that takes PC Engine and Saturn and outputs what you said. I said my DVD Player outputs a YUV display. But I never said anything about those two old ass systems outputting an XRGB-3/DC/DVD combo. Although if you can find a way to make it happen let me know cause I want in on that!! Just kidding.

I only have one VGA IN part on the television. I only considered connecting the Saturn through D in 2 input because Fudoh had me under the impression 15 khz platforms like the Saturn will take the D in 2 input and show a clear signal (he explained this to me over a PM) unlike 31 khz sources like the DC where there is a cloud following the signal. If this was the case, I was ready to invest in a Saturn RGB cable for the purpose of attaching it to my XRGB. But being some how I feel like SCART is a little more convieniant since I already have sources which can bring me a Composite Sync leads, no doubt thanks to you. Granted I did consider just throwing Saturn/Duo to a VGA switcher IF interference problems continues on the XRGB, despite their being 15 khz hardware. But I think I'd rather just grab another SCART switch and hook them up as Composite Sync anyway. The thing is before I was just worried about my current SCART matrix as it's maxed out. So finding another connection with equal quality (logical alternative would've been VGA connect at 15K) or buy another SCART switcher were my only choices. I'm going with the latter.

Though I'm still interested in a VGA switch matrix, if only to handle the DC/XRGB-3/DVD Player for reasons explained above.

Never mind, let's get back on topic

Gosh, I don't think we were getting off-topic, the XRGB-3 is the source to all my Dreamcast troubles lol. I thought we were discussing why it was so problematic when connecting a simple VGA cable. But no worries as I'm pretty sure I know what needs to be done now.

[BuckoA51]

You keep saying "switch matrix" or "matrix switch" this usually refers to a switch that has multiple inputs AND outputs, hence adding to the confusion!

You can daisy-chain SCART switches too, btw.

[Rock Man]

You keep saying "switch matrix" or "matrix switch" this usually refers to a switch that has multiple inputs AND outputs, hence adding to the confusion!

Yeah, didn't mean to throw you off. I was told matrix is just a regular switcher (meaning there can be a multitude of inputs but only ONE out) but okay, I'll take your word for it. I'm not sure the rest of it is that complicated, I thought was pretty straight-forward.

Meh, it's not important really. Just a minor miscommunication is all.

You can daisy-chain SCART switches too, btw.

That's the idea, I had to do this with my current two switchers. Being I have at least twelve systems and together they only let me hook-up ten. I wonder if they make manual switchers for SCART cables that takes more than five inputs.

[Konsolkongen]

Off topic for the XRGB-3 but on topic of the XRGB-2+.

For XRGB-2+ owners....
Taking DSUB out from the 2+ via a DSUB->RGBHV phono lead in to the DVDO EDGE, does help to clean up the "wavy" output of the 2+ at the cost of taking away a minor amount of sharpness to the image.

I'm getting a DVDO Edge tomorrow so I'll test this XRGB2+ > Gefen sure is unstable

What is your CRTSYNC setting?

[fagin]

Off topic for the XRGB-3 but on topic of the XRGB-2+.

For XRGB-2+ owners....
Taking DSUB out from the 2+ via a DSUB->RGBHV phono lead in to the DVDO EDGE, does help to clean up the "wavy" output of the 2+ at the cost of taking away a minor amount of sharpness to the image.

I'm getting a DVDO Edge tomorrow so I'll test this XRGB2+ > Gefen sure is unstable

What is your CRTSYNC setting?

Never saw any difference quality wise, so just leave it as zero.

[Konsolkongen]

Alright. At 0 the Gefen detects the resolution as 640x480, at 1-3 it says 720x480

[fagin]

Alright. At 0 the Gefen detects the resolution as 640x480, at 1-3 it says 720x480

I thought it only output 640x480... Mmmmm.

[Konsolkongen]

The XRGB-3 also outputs in 720x480 in B1

The CRTSYNC moves the wavyness around when using the 2+ in combination with the Gefen, but you don't see any of that with the Edge?

[fagin]

The XRGB-3 also outputs in 720x480 in B1

The CRTSYNC moves the wavyness around when using the 2+ in combination with the Gefen, but you don't see any of that with the Edge?

Yes... Virtually all the waviness goes, but you do lose a bit of sharpness in the process.

[Konsolkongen]

Just got the EDGE. I still see wavyness when connecting the 2+. Can you post your settings for both units? There is a lot of stuff I don't know about the EDGE yet so it's possible I've missed something. I've pretty much only changed the audio input, enabled 1:1 frame rate and Game Mode on the EDGE. Changing CRTSYNC on the 2+ only moves the wavyness around, but it's possible that it's a little bit better than when I used the Gefen.
It could also be the VGA to RCA cable I soldered yesterday, but the image is rock solid when using the XRGB-3, which is passed through the 2+.

Anyway the EDGE seems like a very nice processor. I love the menus and OSD. They are fast and it just looks cool when switching between 4:3 and 16:9

The ringing is a bit much though. It looks horrible when processing the XRGB-3 in Game Mode without scanlines and you are close to the screen. With scanlines it actually looks very nice so another good reason to use scanlines I guess

PS2 in 480i and 480p looks good. I think I can live with the 56ms lag when not using Game Mode. Again the ringing is noticeable, especially in 2D-sprite goodness like Guilty Gear which I have running right now. There is quite a big difference between the EDGE and Optoma here, but considering how retarded the Optoma handles PS2, I can live with what the EDGE does, and it probably does it faster anyway. The ringing on 480i/p is also much better than what my TV does on it's own.

720p and 1080p looks great. Nothing to put a finger on here

[Fudoh]

Looking forward to your MVS and MS findings....

[BuckoA51]

My Edge has developed a fault again These things sure are unreliable.

I didn't think the ringing was bad at all with XRGB3->Edge, you certainly can notice it with 240p material going directly to the Edge though.

[Konsolkongen]

Looking forward to your MVS and MS findings....

Need to solder a RGBs to RCA cable first But I guess there is nothing holding me back going down to the local store and buying the needed parts...

My Edge has developed a fault again These things sure are unreliable.

I didn't think the ringing was bad at all with XRGB3->Edge, you certainly can notice it with 240p material going directly to the Edge though.

Damn What's wrong this time?

It's not as bad as I made it sound, but it's pretty bad compared to the Gefen. But I'll take this over tearing and stuttering any day

EDIT: SMS Converter > XRGB-3 doesn't work with the EDGE. I don't get a picture. Changing Output Frame Lock doesn't help. Still this shouldn't affect SMS Converter > EDGE but it would have been nice if it worked

[BuckoA51]

Garbled picture when first powered on...Probably going to get it serviced again as I don't want this getting any worse:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2932c4lHYAE

Yes my arms really are that hairy...

[Konsolkongen]

That sucks After reading about all your problems with yours I was holding my breath when I first powered on mine. Luckily it seems to be functioning properly.

Has this happened more than once since you got it back? I read somewhere yesterday that a messed up picture could appear after a firmware upgrade (if I remember correctly) and that unplugging it for a few minutes would resolve this problem.

[BuckoA51]

3 times now!

[Konsolkongen]

[fagin]

Just got the EDGE. I still see wavyness when connecting the 2+. Can you post your settings for both units? There is a lot of stuff I don't know about the EDGE yet so it's possible I've missed something. I've pretty much only changed the audio input, enabled 1:1 frame rate and Game Mode on the EDGE. Changing CRTSYNC on the 2+ only moves the wavyness around, but it's possible that it's a little bit better than when I used the Gefen.
It could also be the VGA to RCA cable I soldered yesterday, but the image is rock solid when using the XRGB-3, which is passed through the 2+.

Anyway the EDGE seems like a very nice processor. I love the menus and OSD. They are fast and it just looks cool when switching between 4:3 and 16:9

The ringing is a bit much though. It looks horrible when processing the XRGB-3 in Game Mode without scanlines and you are close to the screen. With scanlines it actually looks very nice so another good reason to use scanlines I guess

PS2 in 480i and 480p looks good. I think I can live with the 56ms lag when not using Game Mode. Again the ringing is noticeable, especially in 2D-sprite goodness like Guilty Gear which I have running right now. There is quite a big difference between the EDGE and Optoma here, but considering how retarded the Optoma handles PS2, I can live with what the EDGE does, and it probably does it faster anyway. The ringing on 480i/p is also much better than what my TV does on it's own.

720p and 1080p looks great. Nothing to put a finger on here

Like I said you won't get rid of the "wavyness" completely, but I found the EDGE to reduce it to an absolute minimum. No "special" settings on the EDGE, but you do need to play around with the DOT CLOCK settings on the XRGB-2+ to get the best results. Change from NTSC to USER and then adjust the USER settings. I can't remember what I have mine set to but will look tonight.

Just to question something you have posted about the XRGB3 passing through the XRGB2+..... it will look fine mate as you state, as the signal is only being passed through, i.e. the XRGB2+ is not doing anything to the image.

Not sure why you are getting alot of ringing when processing the XRGB signal.... I don't. Yes you get a bit, but the biggest thing is that the extra processing takes sharpness away. You certainly get a load less ringing when dealing with a 240p from XRGB in to the EDGE, than you do with a 240p signal direct to the EDGE.

I suspect your reference to ringing on 480 stuff is for 480i only? 480p input material I found good..... it works well as a transcoder, which you would obviously leave Game Mode ON for.

480p from PS2 to EDGE - Can't see no ringing on that mofo, and that's being passed through a HDFURY3 and then a SLG (turned off) - would be sharper connected LCD direct to EDGE I suspect

[Konsolkongen]

Like I said you won't get rid of the "wavyness" completely, but I found the EDGE to reduce it to an absolute minimum. No "special" settings on the EDGE, but you do need to play around with the DOT CLOCK settings on the XRGB-2+ to get the best results. Change from NTSC to USER and then adjust the USER settings. I can't remember what I have mine set to but will look tonight.

Alright thanks

Just to question something you have posted about the XRGB3 passing through the XRGB2+..... it will look fine mate as you state, as the signal is only being passed through, i.e. the XRGB2+ is not doing anything to the image.

That's what I meant. Sorry if that wasn't clear

Not sure why you are getting alot of ringing when processing the XRGB signal.... I don't. Yes you get a bit, but the biggest thing is that the extra processing takes sharpness away. You certainly get a load less ringing when dealing with a 240p from XRGB in to the EDGE, than you do with a 240p signal direct to the EDGE.

Yes maybe it's more a lack of sharpness than actual ringing. It's very easy to see just how much softer the image is if you bring up the XRGB-3 menu. Especially compared to the Gefen where it looked pixelperfect.

I suspect your reference to ringing on 480 stuff is for 480i only? 480p input material I found good..... it works well as a transcoder, which you would obviously leave Game Mode ON for.

I've only tested with Guilty Gear in 480i and 480p. It looks pretty much the same. It's not too bad though.

480p from PS2 to EDGE - Can't see no ringing on that mofo, and that's being passed through a HDFURY3 and then a SLG (turned off) - would be sharper connected LCD direct to EDGE I suspect

I can take a picture of the ringing added on 480p Guilty Gear later. If I can capture it on camera that is, it's really not a big deal

[BuckoA51]

moved this discussion over to the DVDO Edge thread

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 97#p680497

[fagin]

Right since this is XRGB related I will keep the info here (I will post EDGE findings on the other thread in a short while as well):

I have sorted the wavy line issue completely on the XRGB-2+ (without feeding it through another processor).

Let me gather my thoughts and do a bit more testing on another display.

[fagin]

OK... so the wobbling sync issue with the XRGB-2+

It appears to be a timing issue from the OUTPUT of the XRGB-2+. There is a facility to "tune" the clock within the XRGB-2+ menu under DTC_TYPE (DOT CLOCK TYPE) and then USR_DTC (USER DOT CLOCK TYPE). Whilst this "alters" the timing it is no where near enough adjustment or should I say it's harder to adjust. Since I suspect you would need to AUTO re-adjust the LCD/PLASMA on each USR_DTC adjustment. Just changing the USR_DTC will have little effect on it's own imo.

With your LCD/PLASMA you can also adjust phase and pixel clock (same as dot clock) when using the VGA port (it will be within your TV settings menus). Phase seems to make little difference with the "wobble", but adjusting the pixel clock can erradicate it 100%.

BUT......

Based on my testing it only "appears" to totally eradicate the "wobble" using these adjustments on a 1080p native resolution screens. I have tested this on four LCD's and two it works on 100% and the other two you still get the "wobble" but it is greatly reduced. The two screens it works on are 1080p screens (one being a Dell Monitor and the other a Samsung TV)..... whether this is a coincidence I don't know. One of the other screens is a 720p unit (LG TV) and the other one was a 1280x1024 unit (Dell Monitor).

On the two 1080p units the picture is 100% stable after adjustment of their Pixel Clocks. Neither of these two screens are able to AUTO SYNC correctly.... you need to manually alter the Pixel Clock.

For reference my base settings on the XRGB-2+ are:

DTC_TYP: USER
USR_DTC: 802

None of this erradicates the wobble on the XRGB-2+ menus.... but don't worry as the console image is 100% wobble free.

I will get some YouTube videos up soon on the difference it makes with the adjustment etc.

[Fudoh]

But doesn't changing the phase and pixel clock on the TV's side alter the aspect ratio of the picture to an extend where it's no more 4:3 ?? What you're doing is basically forcing the TV into seeing 720x480 instead of 640x480, but on a a square pixel basis...

[fagin]

But doesn't changing the phase and pixel clock on the TV's side alter the aspect ratio of the picture to an extend where it's no more 4:3 ?? What you're doing is basically forcing the TV into seeing 720x480 instead of 640x480, but on a a square pixel basis...

Mmmmm.... you undoubtedly have a point there. But it works!

[TheDark]

Hi,

Someone know where to buy an XRGB 3 ? (with a good price).
If someone sells his XRGB, please send me a private message.

Many Thks.