XRGB-3

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Xyga
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Xyga »

slk486 wrote:Is there a generally recommended transcoder for that? I suspect some cheaper ones may degrade quality.
Fudoh mentioned some that don't convert the signal (just the color space);

http://www.kramerelectronics.com/produc ... name=fc-14

http://www.crescendo-systems.com/transcoder.html

http://www.audioauthority.com/product_details/9A60A

I couldn't find a Kramer, but I just got an used AA for $50 shipped.
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slk486
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by slk486 »

Thanks, expensive stuff, it seems. Where'd you source an AA for $50? eBay?
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Xyga
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Xyga »

Yup, eBay.
Fudoh pointed at a couple AA used units and I bought one.
Search for 'Audio Authority 9A60'.

The 9A60A is the newer model but I don't know if it's significantly different. Both should be good anyway.

EDIT: this one's affordable: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Authority ... 27e62c9509
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slk486
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by slk486 »

Thanks! I only got >$100 units, but results sometimes differ when searching worldwide from co.uk.
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Xyga
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Xyga »

Indeed. Just connect, search (worldwide search), and purchase straight from eBay.com
You'll find it.
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Fudoh
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

The 9A60A is the newer model but I don't know if it's significantly different.
from what I've read it doesn't matter for 480p. The A might perform better for higher bandwidth signals like 720p or 1080i.
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SGGG2
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by SGGG2 »

Uh, so I received an Extron RGB 201rxi for use with my XRGB-3 setup and I'm completely shocked, the difference in image quality's astounding! Color's more vibrant and accurate, the image is sharper, brighter, more detailed and there's a hugeeee difference when chaining the XRGB-3 into another processor.

240p (4:3) XRGB-3 > Gefen Scaler Plus looks better now than the Optoma! Don't get me wrong. The Optoma looks great, when you examine the picture it's clearly a few steps ahead in terms of clarity, sharpness and detail. So much, in fact, that it looks closer to a raw emulator image than a traditonal XRGB. Some stuff (CPS1 titles for instance) just looks harsh. The Gefen tends blur more of the lines together for a softer and thicker look which works in it's favor here.

PS2 480i (16:9) XRGB-3 > the Gefen looks really good, but the extra detail from Optoma easily outclasses it. These games used to look great on my 23" Asus IPS monitor and okay on my 37" LCD, which I attributed mostly due to size. It looks great even on the big set now, never thought I say that about 480i titles.

480p 3D titles (4:3) on the Wii actually look damned good!! After I made sure I wasn't hallucinating I checked out 16:9. Yup, still looks terrible. I'm confused about the jump in quality, I can't recall anyone here reporting something similar.

Some images (XRGB-3 > Extron RGB > Box1020 VGA to component trancoder > Optoma HD3000): http://imgur.com/a/oK8hG :)
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by brownvim »

So the Extron helps you centre the image and the Optoma/Gefen does scaling?

I completed Dino Crisis the other day, 480p on the dreamcast, I noticed some of the text was squashed sometimes, is that bad scaling and would I need an Extron to sort it?
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

is that bad scaling
Possibly, have you tried the 240p test suite?

I always run my XRGB3 through an Extron interface but I didn't think it really affected picture quality. I may have to dig out my Gefen scaler and do some with and without captures.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by brownvim »

I will grab the test suite and see if i can sort it, will post a pic of what the problem looks like too.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by brownvim »

the test suite helped me fix it 95%, I used the Checkboard pattern and Color Bleed check to get my horizontal positioning sorted.

I had to change the pixel clock to get the checkboard pattern looking right, but I end up losing 3 pixels on the right side of the image as my monitor cant shift the image left anymore than I already have.

Losing 3 pixels isnt as bad as having blurry vertical lines though, so i'm happy.

Im guessing this could be fixed by transcoding from VGA to Component then HDMI? My monitor doesnt have Component input. I think its to do with the 640x480/720x480 problem
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

Im guessing this could be fixed by transcoding from VGA to Component then HDMI? My monitor doesnt have Component input. I think its to do with the 640x480/720x480 problem
most likely, yes.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

Possibly, no guarantees with the XRGB3! A lot of hoops to jump through for 3 pixels.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by brownvim »

Fudoh wrote:
most likely, yes.
is there a device that does VGA to HDMI straight? Or do those things add lag?
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

there are dozens of convertes for VGA to HDMI and the simpler ones are lag-free, but they will all apply the wrong A/D sampling to your signal - just like your monitor. So you end up with 640x480p on HDMI instead of 720x480p.

I have not (yet) found a straight VGA to HDMI converter (without scaling or processing) that does it right. Also you don't get to adjust phase/clock on those converters, so you end up with what you get. Most likely like close your monitor in auto mode...
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by brownvim »

I already have a component to hdmi converter that you recommended me that's lag free.

Could you recommend a VGA to Component device?
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Fudoh »

Could you recommend a VGA to Component device?
whatever you can find. Affordable ones don't come by easy.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by brownvim »

They don't add lag do they?
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

Not unless you get one that scales.

It's interesting, I checked the linearity on my Dreamcast (hooked up to the XRGB3 and DVDO combo) with a tape measure. In 480p mode it's at least 3cm out. Switching over to 240p mode and it is spot on (though I am missing a row of pixels at the very top of the circle). Checking the Megadrive (also through the XRGB3+DVDO combo, but linedoubled of course) its linearity is also spot on.

Is this just because I'm using 240p test suite in 480p mode or what?
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by Xyga »

None of the following apply any scaling or whatever so no, there's no additional lag.

Kramer FC-14
Crescendo Systems TC1500 or TC1600
Audio Authority Model 9A60 or 9A60A
RCA VHDC300 (cheap, but not sure it's good/non-scaling, don't know if someone has tested it ?)

Following Fudoh's recommendations I have recently acquired an used 9A60 and it's great, the picture is not absolutely 'perfect' but for several of my VGA/RGBHV-only devices (console/scaler) it solved many issues (scaling artifacts).
With the 9A60 you may see a bit of vertical ringing (very faint though) and some color bleed (depends on which colors but really it doesn't get in the way).
Still a big improvement, really worth the investment!
However keep in mind that you'll get the raw picture resolution from your source device, meaning some will appear squashed instead of 'perfect' 4:3 ratio (E.G Dreamcast in VGA).
No issues with something like an XRGB with a megadrive though.
Also the picture might not be perfectly centered on the screen, there's a potentiometer inside to adjust H-position but where it becomes stable may depend on your TV's sensitivity. Not a problem in most cases.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by pcb_revival »

Fudoh wrote:there are dozens of convertes for VGA to HDMI and the simpler ones are lag-free, but they will all apply the wrong A/D sampling to your signal - just like your monitor. So you end up with 640x480p on HDMI instead of 720x480p.

I have not (yet) found a straight VGA to HDMI converter (without scaling or processing) that does it right. Also you don't get to adjust phase/clock on those converters, so you end up with what you get. Most likely like close your monitor in auto mode...
Whats the Gefen VGAAUD 2 HDMIS unit like as theres a number on ebay UK (£30 BIN) albiet lacking a power supply.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by brownvim »

Thanks for the list Xyga, they don't come cheap.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by SGGG2 »

brownvim wrote:So the Extron helps you centre the image and the Optoma/Gefen does scaling?
Correct. The Extron boosts the signal, allows for image centering (a big help, I'm unable to get full screen on 16:9 240p/480i titles without it, the ends of the image and where the Optoma 'sees' them are misaligned for some reason) and then the image is sent to one of the scalers for better scaling and connectivity then the monitors provide.

What really neat is that in addition to the BNC outputs the Extrons also have a 'monitor' or 'buffered monitor' DB9 or VGA connector which is a second output. Both scalers are connected the to XRGB-3 without a VGA matrix or splitter.

Both devices have perfect scaling for 240p from Wii and PS2, but my 'Ain't it Cool' Saturn is isn't seen accurately. The image itself looks fine, but the adjustment menus are uneven with shaky vsync. Enabling DDSP on the Extron doesn't help. I haven't tried the SEGA Genesis yet. I currently use Retroarch Wii (240p) for all my pre 32-bit games.

All the images posted are in B1 mode. I rarely use B0. Gradius V @ 1080p still looks amazing with it, though.
I always run my XRGB3 through an Extron interface but I didn't think it really affected picture quality. I may have to dig out my Gefen scaler and do some with and without captures.
Maybe there's something wrong with my XRGB-3 (I don't think so), or there's something different about the Extron 201rxi? (Doubtful). Anyway, the difference was immediately obvious on the 37" monitor.
Last edited by SGGG2 on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by brownvim »

It would be awesome if we found a VGA to HDMI converter that didnt mess up the resolution, sigh. Think i will sit this one out unless i find the 9A60 cheap, $50 is a bargain!
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Re: XRGB-3

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Suppose this could go in the DVDO thread but... played around with the Dreamcast extensively, I think I got it looking pretty good:-

Imagedreamcast-looking-good by videogameperfection, on Flickr

I used a 16:9 aspect ratio and added as much vertical zoom on the DVDO as I could without overscanning everything off to bring the aspect ratio back closer to what it supposedly should be. I think it looks much nicer now than the huge black bars it had before.

I don't think passing the Dreamcast through the XRGB3 does it any favours when in 480p mode. It's definitely not a pure passthrough of course. Without the low pass filter on I can see some noise in black/near black parts of the image, with it on of course I lose detail. Eventually I want to set it up so that I can bypass the XRGB3 when I'm running a 480p DC game.

I also tried the DVDO in 480p output mode but it didn't seem to make a big difference, suggesting that going the pure transcoding route (XRGB3->VGA to Component->Component to HDMI) wouldn't be any better for me.
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Re: XRGB-3

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Maybe, there's something wrong with my XRGB-3 (I don't think so), or there's something different about the Extron 201rxi? (Doubtful).
I can't actually say for certain but I don't think I ever ran the XRGB3 and the Gefen without my Extron in the chain. I certainty have run the DVDO Edge with and without though and in that case there doesn't seem to be a big difference in picture quality. I recall Fudoh reported that in some cases having the Extron would fix VGA compatibility problems with the XRGB3 and some TVs too (though not all).

For the record my interface is the 203 Rxi.
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Re: XRGB-3

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BuckoA51 wrote:Suppose this could go in the DVDO thread but... played around with the Dreamcast extensively, I think I got it looking pretty good:-

Imagedreamcast-looking-good by videogameperfection, on Flickr

I used a 16:9 aspect ratio and added as much vertical zoom on the DVDO as I could without overscanning everything off to bring the aspect ratio back closer to what it supposedly should be. I think it looks much nicer now than the huge black bars it had before.

I don't think passing the Dreamcast through the XRGB3 does it any favours when in 480p mode. It's definitely not a pure passthrough of course. Without the low pass filter on I can see some noise in black/near black parts of the image, with it on of course I lose detail. Eventually I want to set it up so that I can bypass the XRGB3 when I'm running a 480p DC game.

I also tried the DVDO in 480p output mode but it didn't seem to make a big difference, suggesting that going the pure transcoding route (XRGB3->VGA to Component->Component to HDMI) wouldn't be any better for me.

You just reminded me, Iv never tried my Dreamcast straight into my monitor :oops:

I just tried it with the 240p suite and it looks amazing, so much sharper, the XRGB makes the image softer and i got a wavyness in the background which is gone. AND i don't lose the 3 pixels on the right doing it this way :D

Looks like i just need a VGA switch now.
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Re: XRGB-3

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If it looks sharper have you played with the sharpness control on the XRGB3? This definitely still does something in B1 mode, though it really shouldn't. I think around 7 is where it should sit, but use the sharpness test in 240p suite to be sure.

How's the linearity test when you feed it directly into the display (are the circles perfectly round or a few centimetres out?)
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Re: XRGB-3

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BuckoA51 wrote:If it looks sharper have you played with the sharpness control on the XRGB3? This definitely still does something in B1 mode, though it really shouldn't. I think around 7 is where it should sit, but use the sharpness test in 240p suite to be sure.

How's the linearity test when you feed it directly into the display (are the circles perfectly round or a few centimetres out?)
Yes I have the XRGB3 on Sharpness 7, its a beautiful image fed straight into the monitor though.

Just measured the circles and yes, they are perfectly round.

The checkerboard pattern is great for me, as I am adjusting the pixel clock i can see almost like a jailbar distortion effect on the boxes until i get it right in the middle. when i get it right you can tell, all the boxes that were grey or funny looking turn to pure white and black.

Its in 4:3 too, well happy.
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Re: XRGB-3

Post by BuckoA51 »

Just measured the circles and yes, they are perfectly round.
Very interesting! Are they perfect on your Dreamcast when you go VGA 720x480 in via the XRGB3 (Dreamcast->XRGB3->Monitor) ?

Dreamcast is the only system where I don't get round circles @480p. Wii and Gamecube are both fine regardless of if I transcode to VGA with the XRGB3 or do direct into the DVDO with component.
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