XRGB-3

RocketKnight · Post by **RocketKnight** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:40 pm

Hi!

I'm new to the forum and would be glad if someone could help me with my questions regarding 15 kHz processing. Although I already read several forum entries and Fudoh's excellent website, I still have some questions left.

I recently switched to an LCD TV because there isn't enough space for my additional CRT in my new living room. While the HDMI input is very fast, the SCART input unfortunately seems a bit laggy to me. Also the scaling of 15 kHz signals is plain ugly. 31 kHz signals however are being scaled quite alright.

Since I'm relatively sensitive in regard to input lag, I currently consider buying an XRGB-3 which should function as linedoubler and scanline generator in B1 mode. My TV doesn't have a VGA input, so I would be in need of an RGBHV to HDMI converter. While an additional scaler like a DVDO would be nice, it would surely exceed my budget.

My equipment is as follows:
- Sony KDL-55W905A
- PAL NES (will probably be equipped with an NES-RGB board shortly)
- Turbo Duo with RGBs mod and cable amp (apparently pure sync, no Composite video)
- Japanese Mega Drive 1 with 50/60 Hz switch
- North American Super NES 'senior'
- PlayStation 1 with PAL and NTSC games
- PAL GameCube with Game Boy Player
- mechanical SCART switches

I would like to know whether there is a recommendable RGBHV to HDMI converter at a low price that can handle the XRGB's 480p60 and 576p50 output resolutions.

Would I need a separate device for fixing the sync signal, when there was already an RGBHV to HDMI converter at the end of the processing chain?

Do I need a sync stripper for the inputs? If so, does any sync stripper work?

Which kind of signal amplifier should be used with the Turbo Duo to achieve the best possible picture quality?

I would be very glad, if someone could help me with that. And if there is any other problem I could run into with the setup described above, I would certainly appreciate any help.

Laughingman.s9 · Post by **Laughingman.s9** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:03 am

Does anyone know if it's possible for the xrgb 3 itself to somehow burn out the output on consoles themselves? Maybe by plugging in the scart while both the console and xrgb are active?

I posted before how my this is cool sega Saturn no longer outputs an image, I turn the Saturn on, the screen jumps like its getting a signal, the extron lights up even as if it's getting something but nothing is shown.

Now I get another Saturn from eBay, a victor Saturn model 2 and same exact thing, no image right out of the gate. The jp21 port isn't the problem, I swap out the cables and my dreamcast and ps1 work fine no problem, both display an image.

I find it hard to believe that 2 saturns both in working order before now crap out in the same time frame. Anyone know what's going on?

Is it possible to fix my consoles?

kel · Post by **kel** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:29 am

I've never personally damaged a console by plugging it into the XRGB-3 but I have blown the video selector IC inside the XRGB-3 three times now by plugging consoles into the GAME IN port.

There's definitely some kind of ESD problem going on with the GAME IN port or maybe all inputs in general although the GAME IN port is more susceptible than the others due to the fact that Scart sockets generally have a loose fit compared to other connectors.

I don't have a clue if it could actually cause damage on the console side or not though. I suppose it would depend on whether the console has any ESD protection on the output.

RocketKnight · Post by **RocketKnight** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:08 am

As mentioned before, I recently read a lot about 15 kHz processing and just remembered a site about the unusual ground wiring of the Saturn causing problems sometimes.

I couldn't find that site anymore but there's already a discussion about it here on the board:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30640

I'm not sure whether it applies to your concrete problem but didn't want to leave it unmentioned.

Xyga · Post by **Xyga** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:31 am

@Rocketknight: with an excellent Sony 'W' you don't need a DVDO in the chain, it will not improve picture quality and will add about 6~8ms of lag for nothing.

You only need either a VGA to HDMI as you said, or VGA to Component transcoder, nothing else.
The latter is better in some aspects but good models can be hard to find and expensive.
For HDMI I remember Fudoh mentioned the Manhattan VGA to HDMI Converter...

In your setup you may encounter problems with the scart switch or consoles individually, but that won't be the Sony's or the XRGB's fault, and rarely the converter.
In most cases just make sure your Scart signals are alright for the XRGB and that'll be it.

Consoles -> Scart Switch -> XRGB-3 -> HDMI or Component converter -> Sony W series TV.
Can't think of anything better, only different if arcade boards are in the game.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:34 am

@Laughingman.s9: and you tried your Saturn units on a different display using different cables? As RocketKnight mentioned the original Sega RGB cables have poor grounding.

@RocketKnight:

I would like to know whether there is a recommendable RGBHV to HDMI converter at a low price that can handle the XRGB's 480p60 and 576p50 output resolutions.

there's none. 480p60 isn't a problem, butr 576p50 is which isn't a proper VESA timing, so none of the cheap converters will support it. As Xyga just stated a VGA to YUV transcoder is a better choice.

Do I need a sync stripper for the inputs? If so, does any sync stripper work?

MD1 might require one. I needed to a LM1881 on my MD1 to run smoothly on the XRGB-3. PCE can be problematic, but this might depend on the RGB mod.

Xyga · Post by **Xyga** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:45 am

Forgot about 576p50 lol, I never play PAL stuff. ^^

FinalBaton · Post by **FinalBaton** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:57 pm

@RocketKnight
For a good VGA to component transcoder : Audio Authority's 9a60a is available from them direct at the best price around ($116) but ships to the US only. CableSolutions has them at the same price and also ships internationally at the lowest price I found ($32).

Don't know if that's over your budget or not

Laughingman.s9 · Post by **Laughingman.s9** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:12 pm

Fudoh wrote:@Laughingman.s9: and you tried your Saturn units on a different display using different cables? As RocketKnight mentioned the original Sega RGB cables have poor grounding.

Yes, on both consoles I've swapped out the scart cable for s video plugged into the xrgb 3 and get no image. I no longer have a CRT to test them on so this was the best I could do

RocketKnight · Post by **RocketKnight** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:55 pm

Thank you for your fast and helpful replies.

@ FinalBaton: The Audio Authority 9A60 is also the only pure RGB to YUV transcoder with 576p50 support I could find after several hours of search. I found one further device supporting this PAL resolution, the StarTech VGA2TV2Way2, but this one has also a scaler function and is at least double the price of the 9A60.

Actually I wouldn't have even expected the 100 € (plus custom fees) for the 9A60 for a simple color transcoder but it seems there isn't a proper alternative at all. So I will go for this one.

By the way, did you see CableSolutions' offer on ebay or do they have an own web shop? (I couldn't find one.) Because I get shipping costs of at least $ 49.20. They're probably already displayed for the particular location, in my case Germany.

One more thing: If necessary, I would like to connect the 'Sync Strike' to the DE-15 input on the back. Does it have the same quality as the SCART input on the front?

@ Laughingman.s9: Doesn't your LCD TV or a friend's one accept any of the old video formats (analog RF, Composite Video, S-Video)? If it would accept at least one of these signals, you could get an appropriate cable for a few dollars and connect the console directly to the TV just to check the Saturn's output.

Xyga · Post by **Xyga** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:27 pm

The 9A60 is expensive but worth it, especially because you own a Sony W and an older XRGB.
You will like how well those three 'click' together.

The only thing that will most certainly beat that 'chain' is marq's DIY video digitizer & scandoubler project.

RocketKnight · Post by **RocketKnight** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:51 am

Xyga wrote: The only thing that will most certainly beat that 'chain' is marq's DIY video digitizer & scandoubler project.

Thank you for mentioning this project in time.

I just read marqs' thread here and have to agree, his project seems incredibly promising. The videos showing the linedoubling/linetripling results look absolutely gorgeous! According to his last entry he is planning to release his device in the near future. Therefore I just decided to still wait. Maybe I will get an even better solution for less money.

FinalBaton · Post by **FinalBaton** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:15 pm

RocketKnight wrote: By the way, did you see CableSolutions' offer on ebay or do they have an own web shop? (I couldn't find one.) Because I get shipping costs of at least $ 49.20. They're probably already displayed for the particular location, in my case Germany.

Their own web shop :
http://www.cs1.net/products/audio_authority.htm

it is US $116 if I remember right. I live in Canada and the cheapest delivery option was US $32. Don't know what it will be for Germany.

RocketKnight · Post by **RocketKnight** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:35 am

@ FinalBaton: Thank you for your response, but I think I will wait and see whether marqs' linedoubler will also fit my requirements. Wouldn't be so bad to get a for a quarter of the price of this chain.

By the way, what game is your robotic samurai avatar from? Taito's Ninja Warriors?

FinalBaton · Post by **FinalBaton** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:25 pm

RocketKnight wrote:@ FinalBaton: Thank you for your response, but I think I will wait and see whether marqs' linedoubler will also fit my requirements. Wouldn't be so bad to get a for a quarter of the price of this chain.

By the way, what game is your robotic samurai avatar from? Taito's Ninja Warriors?

That is the great, great Genesis/MegaDrive game Shadow Dancer, part of the Shinobi series.

This is my favorite game of all-time and is the equivalent of comfort food for me, haha. I still play through it every so often. Oh and I do a 1 life/no hit clear of it on the first level difficulty

Second level difficulty I do a 1 continue clear. Third level is ridiculous, lol

Laughingman.s9 · Post by **Laughingman.s9** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:25 pm

I'm having trouble with my setup again, I run my Xselect d4 before my xrgb 3 in the chain to filter noise out of the analog signals I feed into the xrgb and also to bypass the xrgb entirely if I so choose to let my Sony w800 deinterlace instead or if I'm dealing with already progressive signals.

For everything involving d terminal and component signals I couldn't be happier but the rgb jp21 port is another story entirely when fed into the xrgb 3.

Since the Xselect outputs via dsub15 and D terminal to the tv concurrently I can easily A/B the results to troubleshoot, so I know it's not the jp21 port itself that's the problem. Via D terminal out to tv it displays a picture fine without issue (a 240p interlaced to 480i picture but whatever)

Now when I'm feeding that same signal to the xrgb 3 via dsub to dsub connection I get a picture but it's messed up, warping at the top of the picture and the xrgb menu is stretched out and I can only see half of the screen. I tried adjusting the afc but got nothing. I'm stumped.

This sucks, what's the point of having another useable rgb scart/jp21 port if I can't realistically use it?

Help?!

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:05 pm

I used a XRGB-3/XSELECT-D4 combo for quite some time.

Did you try to set the DUB15 input you're using on the XRGB to a different sync type ? I think to remember that actually both, RGBs and RGBHV would work, but depending on your source, possibly one better than the other.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:36 pm

FinalBaton wrote:This is my favorite game of all-time and is the equivalent of comfort food for me, haha.

o/\o

You play with no shuriken mode like a champ, right?

Laughingman.s9 · Post by **Laughingman.s9** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:41 am

Fudoh wrote:I used a XRGB-3/XSELECT-D4 combo for quite some time.

Did you try to set the DUB15 input you're using on the XRGB to a different sync type ? I think to remember that actually both, RGBs and RGBHV would work, but depending on your source, possibly one better than the other.

I've done every combination I could think of under the sun, my first thought was setting both to rgbcs but I get no image this way. Then I thought yuv on both but nothing. I only get an image when I set the Xselect up for rgbcs and the xrgb3 as rgbhv

This works for my xbox, ps2 and psx desr but anything under the jp21 port comes out warped, and not like it is when I hook up my dreamcast under scart where it's just bending on the top left corner and afc tweaking fixes it, this is a combination of that plus noise but flickering

Laughingman.s9 · Post by **Laughingman.s9** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:51 am

I just noticed that when I'm playing ps2 through the Xselect/xrgb 3 it reads 15khz on screen but switching to the jp21 port on input 5 it reads 31khz.

Now I'm totally lost, is there a setting on the Xselect i may have hit accidentally?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:18 am

Now I'm totally lost, is there a setting on the Xselect i may have hit accidentally?

On the XSELECT I can't think of anything that would affect these readings. You can go through all the settings and try them. There are two settings which SLIGHTLY affect the sync signal, but not to the degree to make a major difference.

You should try the XSELECT's RGB output and the XRGB-3 secondary RGB input seperately. Try a RGBs source directly connected to your XRGB's DSub15 input to confirm it's working fine. And try a 15khz display directly connected to the XSELECT's RGB output.

FinalBaton · Post by **FinalBaton** » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:17 pm

Ed Oscuro wrote:
FinalBaton wrote:This is my favorite game of all-time and is the equivalent of comfort food for me, haha.
o/\o

You play with no shuriken mode like a champ, right?

No, no I don't...

But it's so fun to throw shurikens!

RuffNEC · Post by **RuffNEC** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:29 am

can anyone recommend to use a LASERDISC Player with the XRGB-3? Is that the kind of upscaler that would fit?

thank you!

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:34 am

no, certainly not. For a LD player you need a good adaptive video mode along with fast switching between movie cadences and video material. Also a good comb filter would help.

RuffNEC · Post by **RuffNEC** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:41 am

Fudoh wrote:no, certainly not. For a LD player you need a good adaptive video mode along with fast switching between movie cadences and video material. Also a good comb filter would help.

thanks any cheap recomodation ?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:43 am

a vintage Faroudja linedoubler.

Laughingman.s9 · Post by **Laughingman.s9** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:19 pm

On the Xselect d4/xrgb 3 combo, when using a ps2 feeding into the xrgb via dsub, is it still necessary to turn on the low pass filter on the xrgb 3 or is this redundant since the Xselect is already filtering the signal?

mimylovesjapan · Post by **mimylovesjapan** » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:42 pm

Hello everyone !
I read ton of page about XRGB, to try to understand something in this world of upscaling/desentrelacing etc...
In 2 days I managed to understand very very basic things, then don't be so hard with me !
Thank you for all you wrote in http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de. I read everything, but didn't understood maybe half or more ! Sorry !
The fact is :
- I live in Japan, then everything is pure japan material !
- I have 3 screens : my main TV, Sony 46 inch 1080p, an other TV panasonic 32 inch 720p and a normal screen for computer 19 inch 1024x768
For sure I'd prefer play with the main one !
- I want to play Super Famicom, Famicom, Saturn, Megadrive, Neo Geo, N64, Playstation 1 and 2, Master System and PC engine Duo with the best rending.
- I have now the choice to buy a XRGB2 for 15000 yens or XRGB3 for 24000 yens. I want XRGB for the games who switch 240p to 480i sometimes.
- I heard that it is better to couple XRGB wich a V sync (especially RPG ?). Is that right for both ? if yes, whant could I find in japan to do this V Sync with good quality for cheap ?

Now the question is XRGB2 or XRGB3 ?
I wait for your response !

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:32 pm

Does your Sony still have a VGA input ?
Do you prefer 1080p output without scanlines or 480p output with scanlines ?

Xyga · Post by **Xyga** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:56 pm

mimylovesjapan wrote:- I heard that it is better to couple XRGB wich a V sync (especially RPG ?). Is that right for both ? if yes, whant could I find in japan to do this V Sync with good quality for cheap ?

What do you call a 'V sync' ?
In computer video terms this is short for 'vertical synchronization', all XRGB models can do it by themselves but they work just as well even when it's turned off.
To my knowledge there are no devices called 'V sync'...

mimylovesjapan wrote:Now the question is XRGB2 or XRGB3 ?

Since you're only going to play consoles (no arcade boards) then the XRGB3 or the Frame Meister (a.k.a XRGB-Mini) are for you.
Personally I prefer the XRGB3 because it's got a mode with zero lag, but the 'Mini' looks significantly better and has a convenient HDMI output.

Unrelated: has this ever been posted ? XRGB3-tan ?

(note the '3' hairpin)

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