PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collections

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Restart_Point
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PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collections

Post by Restart_Point »

Hi
I was just wondering if anyone has experimented with decreasing lag in PSP shmups played on a hacked PSTV - especially the Gradius and Salamander collections (I really want the best way to play these on a TV as they have ports & features unique to these collections)
I also have a PSP-3001 but no TV output cable yet. I want to explore the best options with PSTV first.

So far I have tried playing Gradius Collection via Adrenaline, and Adrenaline Bubble Manager, but they seem to cause additional input lag which makes these particular games unplayable imo.

Has anybody with some experience of these things got any tips?
Thanks!
Last edited by Restart_Point on Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:19 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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WobblingPixels
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by WobblingPixels »

That the main reason I don't use PSTV for PSP and PS1 games. The inputlag destroys all my enjoyment to play any game.
My recommendation would be to buy a PSP Go, add micro sd adapter, component cable and use PS3 controller.
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Rulumi
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

As far as I remember Adrenaline actually adds some input lag over what the "PSPEMU" stock games actually have.
Try using ARK (if on a compatible version) or chovy-sign, as these should have less input delay than Adrenaline at the same point of actual PSP downloads from the PS Store, you'll need a base PSP game for these methods.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by bobrocks95 »

Rulumi wrote:As far as I remember Adrenaline actually adds some input lag over what the "PSPEMU" stock games actually have.
Try using ARK (if on a compatible version) or chovy-sign, as these should have less input delay than Adrenaline at the same point of actual PSP downloads from the PS Store, you'll need a base PSP game for these methods.
Do either of those options (ark and chovy-sign) allow for Adrenaline's bilinear filtering removal? That's the only way most PSP games look decent on a TV to me, default PSTV output with PSP games is super blurry from what would be I guess potentially a quadruple upscale (PSP res -> Vita res (this part can be nearest-neighbor in Adrenaline but pretty sure it's bilinear by default) -> 720p PSTV output -> TV res).

A shame because I didn't realize there was additional lag with Adrenaline, but I've spent very little time with it.
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Rulumi
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

Use "Sharpscale" and you'll be able to get the scale you selected from it on official downloads as well as Ark and chovy-sign.
I think the reason PSP by default may look so blurred, is because the PS TV default upscaling seems to upscale with bilinear the 2x scale of the Vita with the bilinear filter applied to the 2x base.
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Restart_Point
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Restart_Point »

Rulumi wrote:As far as I remember Adrenaline actually adds some input lag over what the "PSPEMU" stock games actually have.
Try using ARK (if on a compatible version) or chovy-sign, as these should have less input delay than Adrenaline at the same point of actual PSP downloads from the PS Store, you'll need a base PSP game for these methods.
Just got around to trying Chovy-Sign and Ark, spent all evening getting them working as they are quite involved to set up, they made no significant improvements unfortunately.

I'm starting to think there is no answer to this. I'd like to try a wired or 2.4GHz controller to get around bluetooth, but this is a whole new can of worms and I don't have any hardware at hand try this.

I have noticed that controller response isn't that great even in native Vita games using my DS3 (fully charged, very near-by). I don't think input lag or controller support were priorities in Sony's PSTV design or firmware.
Last edited by Restart_Point on Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:34 am, edited 7 times in total.
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BazookaBen
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by BazookaBen »

Man I played tons of Wipeout Pure and Pulse through Adrenaline and didn't notice input lag. Maybe it's because PSTV runs those games at 60fps as opposed to the 30fps on an actual PSP?

Also, have you tried different output modes for the PSTV? Maybe your TV has more lag at either 720p or 1080i. Also, with sharpscale, you can also get actual 540p output (though not a CRT-friendly 540p because of large blanking intervals). I think 540p might require a patch for sharpscale though
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by bobrocks95 »

BazookaBen wrote:Man I played tons of Wipeout Pure and Pulse through Adrenaline and didn't notice input lag. Maybe it's because PSTV runs those games at 60fps as opposed to the 30fps on an actual PSP?

Also, have you tried different output modes for the PSTV? Maybe your TV has more lag at either 720p or 1080i. Also, with sharpscale, you can also get actual 540p output (though not a CRT-friendly 540p because of large blanking intervals). I think 540p might require a patch for sharpscale though
I got sharpscale going yesterday and there's a 544p inside a 720p window option, but no actual 544p output res from what I can tell. Not that it'd be useful outside of an upscaler to go to 1080p and cut off 4 source lines (sharpscale can do this in the 1080i mode!), or polyphase stretch it in a 1440p or 720p mode. Hopefully we can get support for PSTV sharpscale in a future scaler.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by WobblingPixels »

Restart_Point wrote: Just got around to trying Chovy-Sign and Ark, spent all evening getting them working as they are quite involved to set up, they made no perceptible improvements unfortunately.
thanks for the effort and testing. So the input lag is the same as with adrenalin?
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

I can tell ARK and PSN downloads being a bit faster on the input than Adrenaline.
But I use a DualShock 4, maybe the DS4 has a better response than the DS3? Although the DS3 was supposedly faster.
I'll say to try a compatible good control that's wired and see if it's better like that.

If you still have problems with that, maybe try going the PSP route. You may want an upscaler for that method thought.
Also the output could vary between the 2000, 3000 and Go models; but in practice they may not be too different?
Someone should compare the 3 models.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by bobrocks95 »

Rulumi wrote:I can tell ARK and PSN downloads being a bit faster on the input than Adrenaline.
But I use a DualShock 4, maybe the DS4 has a better response than the DS3? Although the DS3 was supposedly faster.
I'll say to try a compatible good control that's wired and see if it's better like that.

If you still have problems with that, maybe try going the PSP route. You may want an upscaler for that method thought.
Also the output could vary between the 2000, 3000 and Go models; but in practice they may not be too different?
Someone should compare the 3 models.
On PS4 a wired Dualshock 4 is actually laggier than using one wirelessly with bluetooth because of the low polling rate on the USB inputs. Worth a try on the PSTV but it could be the same thing.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

The DS4 indeed should have more delay when used wired, but wireless should be fine, which is as I use.
Also the range of the PS Vita/PS (Vita) TV Bluetooth may not be as strong as other things, so one may want to use it in a closer distance if possible.

EDIT: Decided to try to see a bit, DS3 and DS4 wireless didn't really feel different I think, may be ever so slightly more delay than the PSP Go.
Wired DS3 felt the same as the PSP Go for me personally, so maybe try that, although using ARK or PSN downloads.
Adrenaline indeeds has a slight delay in comparision even with the filter settings set to "Original".
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

bobrocks95 wrote: On PS4 a wired Dualshock 4 is actually laggier than using one wirelessly with bluetooth because of the low polling rate on the USB inputs. Worth a try on the PSTV but it could be the same thing.
Internet tells me PS3 USB polling rate is the max 1000 Hz and PSTV has 1000 Hz for USB, a slow 100 Hz for DS3 Bluetooth and 800 Hz for DS4 Bluetooth. From those numbers, wired is faster but I see overwhelming evidence that Bluetooth is faster in reality. DS4v2 Bluetooth slightly faster at 2.8ms than DS4v1 at 4.3ms. The DS4v2 Bluetooth is apparently the fastest controller out there, on PC at least. Other charts in the video showing standard deviation of input lag, which is kind of interesting.

Does anyone know what PlayStation 2 USB polling rate is? Really annoying searching for the answer due to PS/2 port existing. Curious on the lowest input lag option, especially with Bluetooth to USB adapters that work with PS2 still available.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by bobrocks95 »

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote: On PS4 a wired Dualshock 4 is actually laggier than using one wirelessly with bluetooth because of the low polling rate on the USB inputs. Worth a try on the PSTV but it could be the same thing.
Internet tells me PS3 USB polling rate is the max 1000 Hz and PSTV has 1000 Hz for USB, a slow 100 Hz for DS3 Bluetooth and 800 Hz for DS4 Bluetooth. From those numbers, wired is faster but I see overwhelming evidence that Bluetooth is faster in reality. DS4v2 Bluetooth slightly faster at 2.8ms than DS4v1 at 4.3ms. The DS4v2 Bluetooth is apparently the fastest controller out there, on PC at least. Other charts in the video showing standard deviation of input lag, which is kind of interesting.

Does anyone know what PlayStation 2 USB polling rate is? Really annoying searching for the answer due to PS/2 port existing. Curious on the lowest input lag option, especially with Bluetooth to USB adapters that work with PS2 still available.
Hmm I must be wrong on the reason then instead of it being a polling rate issue. Odd scenario either way.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

NewSchoolBoxer wrote: Internet tells me PS3 USB polling rate is the max 1000 Hz and PSTV has 1000 Hz for USB, a slow 100 Hz for DS3 Bluetooth and 800 Hz for DS4 Bluetooth. From those numbers, wired is faster but I see overwhelming evidence that Bluetooth is faster in reality. DS4v2 Bluetooth slightly faster at 2.8ms than DS4v1 at 4.3ms. The DS4v2 Bluetooth is apparently the fastest controller out there, on PC at least. Other charts in the video showing standard deviation of input lag, which is kind of interesting.

Does anyone know what PlayStation 2 USB polling rate is? Really annoying searching for the answer due to PS/2 port existing. Curious on the lowest input lag option, especially with Bluetooth to USB adapters that work with PS2 still available.
Yes, I only have v2 DS4 and I'm pretty happy in it's performance on PC and so.
As for using USB controllers on a PS2, you can directly use a DS3 and DS4 with a PS2 through OPL via USB, although not sure how the game compatibility with using them is.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

Rulumi wrote: Yes, I only have v2 DS4 and I'm pretty happy in it's performance on PC and so.
As for using USB controllers on a PS2, you can directly use a DS3 and DS4 with a PS2 through OPL via USB, although not sure how the game compatibility with using them is.
Sweet, I ordered a DS4v2 controller and will shop around for OPL USB dongle.

It's hard for me to understand why Bluetooth is faster than USB. Bluetooth time has to include encoding onto a packet, modulation onto 2.4 GHz wave, packet loss from interference and demodulation. I've come up with 3 reasons in order of importance: USB and Bluetooth circuitry are different and the controller's UBS path must go through a different chip with many more transistors that add to propagation time. USB can't send button info in single packet so may be splitting up into multiple 1000 Hz polling requests. The electromagnetic wave of Bluetooth travels at essentially the speed of light, compared to 2/3 or so over cable and much less than that over PCB trace.

edit typos
This thread at modding website goes hardcore into DS4. Admin RDC implies input delay would be very slightly different based on which button you press:

D-pad and all face button are active low logic, they go to ground to activate.
L1, R1, L3 and R3 are active high logic, they go to 3.2V to activate.
L2 and R2 each have their own pulse width modulation (PWM) line.

Time delay from high to low logic is not exactly the same as delay from low to high. Maybe L2 and R2 have lowest delay.
Meanwhile, 'DS3 uses a COM line setup that is pretty screwed up' lol.

I dug around to find PS2 uses USB v1.1 protocol, meaning, I think, it has 100 Hz minimum and 250 Hz maximum polling rates available. That sucks but much less significant than if the game is reading the polling once per frame.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Restart_Point »

WobblingPixels wrote:thanks for the effort and testing. So the input lag is the same as with adrenalin?
Indeed. I felt the same amount of lag with ARK and Chovy-Sign as using Adrenaline Bubble Manager with optimal settings.
Tested with Gradius Collection
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Restart_Point »

Rulumi wrote:I'll say to try a compatible good control that's wired and see if it's better like that.
I'm using a DS3 and I am unimpressed by its performance with Vita Games and PSP games. I can plug that in to the PSTV but I think its still using BT to work. This is subjective of course, but i'm unimpressed enough to carry on pursuing other methods.

I've tried a wired Rock Candy PS3 controller and another wired multi-support USB controller that works on my PS3, but neither of these register at all with the PSTV. So far I am not convinced that the PSTV firmware is capable of recognising any directly plugged-in wire-only controllers, 1st or 3rd party, and have been unable to find any solid proof that it does.

There is a universal USB adaptor called the CronusMAX Plus which the makers say works with PSTV and looks very versatile (has a USB socket plus BT and 2.4GHz receivers) but that is £60 on Amazon UK. Also an older MayFlash adapter that takes PS2 and USB controllers is reported as working, but these are both expensive to buy, and adaptors are adding another potential cause of lag to the chain.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

If you power off the DS3 and then connect via USB and start it there it should be working by USB, at least with the DS3, not sure about the DS4.

The PS TV does support wired controllers, safe mode actually only works using one wired via USB.
The problem with third party controllers for PS3, is that they usually don't implement things quite well, so you tend to have problems using them outside of a PS3 like on a PSP Go or a Vita.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Shelcoof »

I had no idea the Vita TV added input lag

Then again I've been playing Ultiamte Ghosts N Goblins on it
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Guile »

Restart_Point wrote: There is a universal USB adaptor called the CronusMAX Plus which the makers say works with PSTV and looks very versatile (has a USB socket plus BT and 2.4GHz receivers) but that is £60 on Amazon UK. Also an older MayFlash adapter that takes PS2 and USB controllers is reported as working, but these are both expensive to buy, and adaptors are adding another potential cause of lag to the chain.
I use a CronusMAX plus with a pstv so I can use a Wii U pro controller and it has no input delay that I can notice. I recently used a ps4 controller with a bad battery and noticed extreme delay when it was charging and still noticeable delay when not charging. I've used a ds4 with a better battery wirelessly and the delay feels fine though I think it is still there.

I've also used the ps3 controller that originally came with it wirelessly and did not notice any delay.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Shelcoof »

Restart_Point wrote: There is a universal USB adaptor called the CronusMAX Plus which the makers say works with PSTV and looks very versatile (has a USB socket plus BT and 2.4GHz receivers) but that is £60 on Amazon UK. Also an older MayFlash adapter that takes PS2 and USB controllers is reported as working, but these are both expensive to buy, and adaptors are adding another potential cause of lag to the chain.
I have that Mayflash adapter and it does work with the Vita TV however though not all USB controllers work.
I manage to use my Madcatz SE Xbox 360 stick to work though
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

Restart_Point wrote: I'm using a DS3 and I am unimpressed by its performance with Vita Games and PSP games. I can plug that in to the PSTV but I think its still using BT to work. This is subjective of course, but i'm unimpressed enough to carry on pursuing other methods.
If you still feel it bad with a wired one, then your better choice may be to use a PSP with component, if you use the system controls there shouldn't be any delay.

For that you want a 2000, 3000 or Go model; what you want is the component cables preferibly.
The 2000 can only output PSP games in 480p, the 3000 and Go can output them on interlaced in case you want to use a CRT or use composite or S-Video. The PSP Go can use a DS3 via Bluetooth if you want that.
But note that you may want something that can upscale or so the image, because the output is the PSP resolution centered on the 720x480 frame, so it'll appear tiny and may be blurred by your display.
The OSSC can do a PSP "optimized" mode with some trickery, but that'll require your display to be compatible. The RetroTINK-5X can do the zoom in the latest version to the 1080p resolution and should work fine with any display, so that's a good and better option maybe.

Even so note that the PSP video out while alright if processed and scaled correctly, it has something that I'm not sure how to describe as some sort of "muddiness" to it, although I only have a Go to compare; someone should compare the 2000, 3000 and Go. Although from what I have seen the 3000 seems to be similar to the Go.
So it won't be as good as the PS TV with Sharpscale, if that's a problem for you.
Here's a small video I made comparing the Go and the PS TV if that helps: https://youtu.be/y5Ad_N-PKhE

If you prefer images, here's the PSP Go:
Spoiler
Image
And here's the PS TV:
Spoiler
Image
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by bobrocks95 »

If you have any scaled pictures from OSSC or RT5X usage that would be nice to see, I haven't seen an actual PSP zoomed on a TV in a long time (and it looked really bad).
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by jd213 »

Would be nice if the PSP had an option to output at 240p by just discarding 16 rows of pixels from the top and bottom.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by bahamutfan64 »

How much lag does PPSSPP have?
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

Shelcoof wrote:I had no idea the Vita TV added input lag
The output image shouldn't have lag.
bobrocks95 wrote:If you have any scaled pictures from OSSC or RT5X usage that would be nice to see, I haven't seen an actual PSP zoomed on a TV in a long time (and it looked really bad).
The PSP Go component screenshot is using the OSSC, but if you need TV images, I took some here of the same scene and game so you can compare to the direct captures screnshots as well.
This is from an slightly old Sony TV with 960p 2x with only a bit of "zoom", which still results in quite some letterbox, I used this TV specifically because it has a nice image quality and colors; and also does a sharp scale for some sources below 1080 like 720p or so for some reason, which may seem weird to do if they were going for TV content, but which is good for this kind of thing.
Spoiler
Image
I wanted to use it for the optimized PSP samping too, but it kept complaining about it not being a recommended signal and not showing the image, so instead I had to use another TV of a small brand and so, that I don't quite really like the image or colors in it for any signal in general; but demonstrates this mode showing the full size if on a compatible display.
Spoiler
Image
I don't have a RetroTINK-5X to show that sadly, if you just want to use an OSSC because of the PSP, maybe it's not a good idea, the optimized PSP mode compatibility can be hit or miss in either not working or showing the image with letterboxing and/or a weird aspect ratio.
The RetroTINK-5X should be better if you just want for the PSP, as it won't only work without problems in almost any display and device, it can also zoom in the image to 1080p instead of just doing 2x for it like the OSSC.
You could wait until other devices releases like the OSSC Pro and so if you'll prefer that as well.
But if you already have an OSSC, it's worth the try I guess, just make sure to be in the latest version to be able to use that optimized PSP sampling.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

jd213 wrote:Would be nice if the PSP had an option to output at 240p by just discarding 16 rows of pixels from the top and bottom.
That will be too many pixels that will affect various games.
That said, if you want 720x240, you can to get the full screen, although it'll look uneven.
Also I don't recommend to try that because it kills games performance, but if you are inclined to do so, try the FuSa SD plugin.
bahamutfan64 wrote:How much lag does PPSSPP have?
Should be fine for most people probably, although you may get slight hiccups on the performance if your hardware isn't strong enough according to your settings.
But I thought the point of using a PS Vita/TV would be to use a form of native hardware (for the most part).
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Restart_Point »

Rulumi wrote:If you still feel it bad with a wired one, then your better choice may be to use a PSP with component
I have a retrotink 5x, I may look at the possibility of getting a PSP Go at some point.

And thanks for the post before that, after reading that I realised I could confirm the DS3 is using USB by checking there were no connected bluetooth devices mentioned in the settings, and there weren't.

Testing again the other day, I think that using Sharpscale (looks good - dont know if it reduces lag), Chovy-Sign and a cabled DS3 marginally gave me the best results, but when going back to playing my hand-held PSP 3001 to compare, there's no competition. Gradius 1 on the PSP feels perfect, but there is definitely lag on the PSTV, and enough to cause unfair collisions etc. I don't think it's my TV or any of my equipment as I don't have this problem with MiSTer or consoles through the retrotink. From reading this thread and others, I'm compelled to think that the lag is caused by some combination of controller performance, the baked-in PSP emulation that the PSTV uses, and/or its HDMI performance. I'm pretty sure I've done everything possible to minimise issues now, so I must conclude that the PSTV is not great for playing input lag-sensitive PSP games like shmups.
Last edited by Restart_Point on Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:54 am, edited 18 times in total.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

bobrocks95 wrote: Hmm I must be wrong on the reason then instead of it being a polling rate issue. Odd scenario either way.
Oh wait, I found this Reddit post that states DS4v1 and v2 are both 250 Hz wired. Nice imgur link proving as such compared to 800 Hz Bluetooth when connecting to Windows. Also a Linux post stating DS4 is 250 Hz wired but can be configured up to 1000 Hz. Has helpful comments.
Internet contradicted itself. My life is a lie.
I think the greater explanation is people assume wired would poll at USB 2.0's max rate of 1000 Hz. My USB 2.0 Zeus E2 mouse that came with the computer only polls at 250 Hz and that's easy to prove. Guess if I want input lag measuring to be more scientific then I got to do it myself.
Rulumi wrote: If you still feel it bad with a wired one, then your better choice may be to use a PSP with component, if you use the system controls there shouldn't be any delay.

For that you want a 2000, 3000 or Go model; what you want is the component cables preferibly.
The 2000 can only output PSP games in 480p, the 3000 and Go can output them on interlaced in case you want to use a CRT or use composite or S-Video. The PSP Go can use a DS3 via Bluetooth if you want that.
That's cool, I didn't know the Go could do DS3 over Bluetooth. PSP Sony component cables are cheap and plentiful. Even got official D-Terminal ones in Japan that can be passively broken out into YPbPr. I assume with no proof that 480i video out to CRT would give better pixel response than PSP's own early LCD screen. Maybe 480p transcoded to RGBHV for typical CRT computer monitor would be better to dodge PSP's interlacing.
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