PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collections

[bobrocks95]

I already said this before in the thread, but Adrenaline adds extra input latency in comparision to the stock "PSPEMU" because of the extra things it does to output and so.

The stock "PSPEMU" is obviously still not as "zero latency" as a PSP would be, but for people more tolerable to lag it may be fine for some.
Worth the look if you already have a PS TV but not worth the risk if you don't have one already.

If someone wants as much low latency as possible, a PSP is the best option even if the video output is a bit bad.

Is the Adrenaline lag related to the frame pacing issue PR I'm seeing on the Github? I was checking because I was curious if TheFlow knew about or had any comments on the additional lag.

Unfortunate because removing the bilinear filtering for a 2x integer scale in PSP mode on Adrenaline is what imo makes it the best looking output option for PSP on TV. From what I understand, with the default bilinear on you get 3 steps of filtering, one for PSP to the Vita resolution, one for Vita resolution to 720p on the PSTV, and one for your TV upscaling to 1080p/2160p/whatever. Bilinear off in Adrenaline should skip the first one, and it helps a ton to clean up the signal. Could be wrong of course.

[Konsolkongen]

Is the Adrenaline lag related to the frame pacing issue PR I'm seeing on the Github? I was checking because I was curious if TheFlow knew about or had any comments on the additional lag.

Unfortunate because removing the bilinear filtering for a 2x integer scale in PSP mode on Adrenaline is what imo makes it the best looking output option for PSP on TV. From what I understand, with the default bilinear on you get 3 steps of filtering, one for PSP to the Vita resolution, one for Vita resolution to 720p on the PSTV, and one for your TV upscaling to 1080p/2160p/whatever. Bilinear off in Adrenaline should skip the first one, and it helps a ton to clean up the signal. Could be wrong of course.

Sound right. Use Sharpscale and you can skip the second step as well. This displays the Vitas 544p resolution 1:1 in a 720p frame. Some TVs have the option to zoom the image. Here is the difference on my TV:

Native 720p output from PSTV:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... image0.jpg

Sharpscale and zoom on LG OLED:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... image1.jpg

Even though the TV adds a bit of blur it's still a huge difference

[RebeL9]

I’m looking for a good solution to play PSP and Vita games on my BVM D24.
Would a PlayStation TV with Sharpscale be the best option? I suppose I won’t be able to get full screen?

[BazookaBen]

I’m looking for a good solution to play PSP and Vita games on my BVM D24.
Would a PlayStation TV with Sharpscale be the best option? I suppose I won’t be able to get full screen?

You can get fullscreen with 1080i sharpscale. It removes the top most and bottom most line of the 272p PSP at a 4x scale

But for your D24, what would be even better is if you did the 720p mode, which has the full 544p frame in the middle, then use your overscan mode on the BVM to make it full screen. You might need to tweak overscan mode in the service menu to fit perfectly.

Because 544p will definitely look better than 1080i

[magus90]

I already said this before in the thread, but Adrenaline adds extra input latency in comparision to the stock "PSPEMU" because of the extra things it does to output and so.

The stock "PSPEMU" is obviously still not as "zero latency" as a PSP would be, but for people more tolerable to lag it may be fine for some.
Worth the look if you already have a PS TV but not worth the risk if you don't have one already.

If someone wants as much low latency as possible, a PSP is the best option even if the video output is a bit bad.

Have you tried Adrenaline bubble manager? Or Chovy Sign?

Cuevavirus, the creator of sharpscale recommends Chovy Sign for lag free PSP on the PSTV. I am in the process of getting it running to try out.

Also many people have reported that the Adrenaline bubble manager, significantly reduces lag, but no real logical reason as to why. Multiple people have confirmed though that rhythm based games became playable using it. I am gonna experiment with both.

[bobrocks95]

I already said this before in the thread, but Adrenaline adds extra input latency in comparision to the stock "PSPEMU" because of the extra things it does to output and so.

The stock "PSPEMU" is obviously still not as "zero latency" as a PSP would be, but for people more tolerable to lag it may be fine for some.
Worth the look if you already have a PS TV but not worth the risk if you don't have one already.

If someone wants as much low latency as possible, a PSP is the best option even if the video output is a bit bad.

Have you tried Adrenaline bubble manager? Or Chovy Sign?

Cuevavirus, the creator of sharpscale recommends Chovy Sign for lag free PSP on the PSTV. I am in the process of getting it running to try out.

Also many people have reported that the Adrenaline bubble manager, significantly reduces lag, but no real logical reason as to why. Multiple people have confirmed though that rhythm based games became playable using it. I am gonna experiment with both.

Chovy Sign looks like it's going to take a lot more work to set up and the instructions are pretty unclear, I guess I extract a legit game's keys, patch my ISO's with them, and throw them back on the system and they show up... On the Vita home screen or somewhere else? Do the bubbles look unique or just like copies?

I'll set up Adrenaline bubble manager myself and give it a try. All I can do is casual A/B testing for lag though...

If Rock Band Unplugged or another rhythm game had a calibration menu that would be cool to test with, but doubt any of them do since it's a portable system.

Either way would love to hear back if you noticed less lag between Adrenaline and those two options.

[RebeL9]

I’m looking for a good solution to play PSP and Vita games on my BVM D24.
Would a PlayStation TV with Sharpscale be the best option? I suppose I won’t be able to get full screen?

You can get fullscreen with 1080i sharpscale. It removes the top most and bottom most line of the 272p PSP at a 4x scale

But for your D24, what would be even better is if you did the 720p mode, which has the full 544p frame in the middle, then use your overscan mode on the BVM to make it full screen. You might need to tweak overscan mode in the service menu to fit perfectly.

Because 544p will definitely look better than 1080i

Thanks! What about Vita games?

[bobrocks95]

Tested with Adrenaline Bubble Manager and Mega Man Maverick Hunter X just to see very quickly and I didn't notice any lag difference.

Please don't let that discourage anyone else from testing, I don't have any scientific way to measure lag and I might just not notice the difference, especially if bubbles are say 1 frame faster.

Anyone with a high framerate camera could compare the two, we were talking about an LED hookup earlier for overall lag numbers, but if you just want to compare the 2 launch methods you can check the same game, and see if input comes on average at about the same time, or if launching through Adrenaline is slower. If you did Mega Man for example you could just see how many frames are between a shoot button press and when the projectile spawns/animation begins on screen. The same method could be used to compare Vita vs. PSP vs. PSP Go if someone has the equipment.

I’m looking for a good solution to play PSP and Vita games on my BVM D24.
Would a PlayStation TV with Sharpscale be the best option? I suppose I won’t be able to get full screen?

You can get fullscreen with 1080i sharpscale. It removes the top most and bottom most line of the 272p PSP at a 4x scale

But for your D24, what would be even better is if you did the 720p mode, which has the full 544p frame in the middle, then use your overscan mode on the BVM to make it full screen. You might need to tweak overscan mode in the service menu to fit perfectly.

Because 544p will definitely look better than 1080i

Thanks! What about Vita games?

Vita games are 544p so same as PSP, output in 720p mode with sharpscale and you'll get a 544p frame you can stretch with overscan.

[Restart_Point]

Chovy Sign looks like it's going to take a lot more work to set up and the instructions are pretty unclear, I guess I extract a legit game's keys, patch my ISO's with them, and throw them back on the system and they show up... On the Vita home screen or somewhere else? Do the bubbles look unique or just like copies?

I followed a youtube tutorial's recommendation of installing a free (or paid if you have one already) legit PSP game from PSN store onto the PSTV then every PSP ISO you add after that is wrapped in a clone of that, and the bubble icon shows the correct name and icon for the added game, and you can move it around just like any other game bubble. You have to keep the legit game permanently installed and your PSTV registered on PSN for all your added games to stay working. It is a laborious process setting it up but most of the work is in the initial set up, then adding games isn't hard, but still time consuming requiring various PC applications to do the wrapping then transfer to the PSTV and you have to do it one at a time, no batch process. Too bad it didn't give me the performance improvements I was hoping for.

[magus90]

I tried the bubble manager, and didn't notice much of a difference either. Maybe slight placebo? But TBH, i am not finding the lag to be bad in the first place. I just beat the first 3 levels of castlevania dracula x without getting hit. I have the PSTV running at 480p into my 5x and outputting 1080p Fill/16:9. Sharpscale set to integer.

BUT i am struggling with Parappa the rapper on PSP. Can't beat the 3rd level. I can't tell if it's because of lag or if i suck though.

As for Chovy Sign, it does seem to be a lot of work, and if the person above me already tried it and noticed no difference, I probably won't bother.

I plan to use PSP for mostly RPG's anyway, so i think i can live with whatever lag there is.

[BazookaBen]

I have the PSTV running at 480p into my 5x and outputting 1080p Fill/16:9. Sharpscale set to integer.

If I recall correctly, sharpscale doesn't engage at 480p output. You have to use 720p or 1080i

[bobrocks95]

I tried the bubble manager, and didn't notice much of a difference either. Maybe slight placebo? But TBH, i am not finding the lag to be bad in the first place. I just beat the first 3 levels of castlevania dracula x without getting hit. I have the PSTV running at 480p into my 5x and outputting 1080p Fill/16:9. Sharpscale set to integer.

I'd agree with it not being bad. I'm not in a rush to replace it with a PSP Go, it seems the PSTV is perfect for the level of interest I have in the PSP library. If it wasn't covered in the thread already, devs have said that the Vita SoC contains the PSP's MIPS CPU on it and graphics calls are emulated, so very similar to the PS1 games on (fat) PS2 backwards compatibility.

BUT i am struggling with Parappa the rapper on PSP. Can't beat the 3rd level. I can't tell if it's because of lag or if i suck though.

Lots of old posts I'm seeing about the PSP version of Parappa being especially finicky: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/parappa- ... en.981641/

[magus90]

I have the PSTV running at 480p into my 5x and outputting 1080p Fill/16:9. Sharpscale set to integer.

If I recall correctly, sharpscale doesn't engage at 480p output. You have to use 720p or 1080i

Hmm, i was watching the MLiG video and maybe i misunderstood when they were explaining what 480p with the sharpscale was doing.

I tried 1080i and with the Portta component to Hdmi adapter into the 5x at 1080p Fill, which is the only output the 5x will let me choose with 1080i input. I am getting a weird line at the top where an inch of the screen is showing the bottom of the image but at the top in that 1 inch or so bar. It's odd. Not sure if it's the portta adapter or the 5x.

[Rulumi]

I can say for sure that both ChovySign and ARK will have less input delay than Adrenaline, maybe ChovySign less than ARK (?), not sure about that.
Wether the process to get any of these running is worth it or not for anyone here to try is up to everyone.

I'd agree with it not being bad. I'm not in a rush to replace it with a PSP Go, it seems the PSTV is perfect for the level of interest I have in the PSP library. If it wasn't covered in the thread already, devs have said that the Vita SoC contains the PSP's MIPS CPU on it and graphics calls are emulated, so very similar to the PS1 games on (fat) PS2 backwards compatibility.

The main MIPS CPU is there as well as the GE ('Graphics Engine').
The ME (called by people as 'Media Engine') is emulated in what seems to be completely on the ARM side.

[bobrocks95]

I can say for sure that both ChovySign and ARK will have less input delay than Adrenaline, maybe ChovySign less than ARK (?), not sure about that.
Wether the process to get any of these running is worth it or not for anyone here to try is up to everyone.

I'm willing to give ARK a try, it looks like it's had very rapid development recently (assuming this is the latest version being worked on: https://github.com/PSP-Archive/ARK-4). Does it include an option to remove the bilinear filtering though? Not very useful to me if not. EDIT: it does not and I couldn't actually get it to launch an EBOOT for whatever reason.

Otherwise I'll try Chovy, though all my PSP games are eboots so it's going to be a pain and I'd rather wait to hear comments from other users.

I'd agree with it not being bad. I'm not in a rush to replace it with a PSP Go, it seems the PSTV is perfect for the level of interest I have in the PSP library. If it wasn't covered in the thread already, devs have said that the Vita SoC contains the PSP's MIPS CPU on it and graphics calls are emulated, so very similar to the PS1 games on (fat) PS2 backwards compatibility.

The main MIPS CPU is there as well as the GE ('Graphics Engine').
The ME (called by people as 'Media Engine') is emulated in what seems to be completely on the ARM side.

Hadn't seen corroborated mentions of the GPU being included, I saw comments from yifan_lu who was a name I knew mentioning the CPU being included, so I was confident in sharing that. Regardless compatibility seems to be near 100% which is very nice.

EDIT: Tried Chovy and didn't notice much of a difference. Maybe slight but it's in placebo range, maybe like one frame. Anyone with some actual tested numbers would be great, I'd do it if I had the camera for it. As it stands you lose the ability to turn off filtering which is the whole reason I think the PSTV looks so good for PSP games, and adding games is much more complicated than throwing them into the correct folder on my USB drive.

[Konsolkongen]

Why is the PSTV limited to 1080i anyway? Would that be a bandwidth limitation, or they they cheap out and used an ancient HDMI chipset?

Integer scaling to 1088px with a few lines cut off in a 1080p output would have been awesome

[magus90]

I just tried it with an Mclassic and I noticed a bit of a difference. It has less lag than the 5x I had it running through. It’s running sharpscale integer at 720p and the Mclassic is upscaling I guess to 1080p. Everywhere I read said use 480p but it looked awful. I was able to beat parappa the rappers first level easily and get a perfect run. I can hit perfect shots in hot shots golf every other shot or so.

I think for my needs, rpgs, this should be more than fine. But with the price I have invested here I am a hair away from just emulating with Ppsspp or just getting a 3000 psp. I just hate the joystick on those things. What i have here does look really nice though. These are on a 110" projector screen. Fills probably about 75% of it.

https://i.imgur.com/ySF1lUh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ByJ3DPx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jZkDGhI.jpg

[BazookaBen]

Integer scaling to 1088px with a few lines cut off in a 1080p output would have been awesome

That's how the 1080i mode works. At full zoom it's 4 off the top and 4 off the bottom. Sharpscale will do the full zoom automatically and also remove the bilinear filter.

It should look pretty close to 540p if you can tweak the deinterlacing method on your TV. Zooming the sharpscale 720p mode is a good alternative if your TV has a custom zoom

[RebeL9]

Integer scaling to 1088px with a few lines cut off in a 1080p output would have been awesome

That's how the 1080i mode works. At full zoom it's 4 off the top and 4 off the bottom. Sharpscale will do the full zoom automatically and also remove the bilinear filter.

It should look pretty close to 540p if you can tweak the deinterlacing method on your TV. Zooming the sharpscale 720p mode is a good alternative if your TV has a custom zoom

Sorry for a silly question but is it possible to zoom on a BVM D24?

[bobrocks95]

Integer scaling to 1088px with a few lines cut off in a 1080p output would have been awesome

That's how the 1080i mode works. At full zoom it's 4 off the top and 4 off the bottom. Sharpscale will do the full zoom automatically and also remove the bilinear filter.

It should look pretty close to 540p if you can tweak the deinterlacing method on your TV. Zooming the sharpscale 720p mode is a good alternative if your TV has a custom zoom

Sorry for a silly question but is it possible to zoom on a BVM D24?

Use the overscan mode, yeah.

Need some more comments on Chovy Sign lag though

[RebeL9]

Integer scaling to 1088px with a few lines cut off in a 1080p output would have been awesome

Use the overscan mode, yeah.

[/quote]

Sorry I’m totally new into these monitors. Where do I find the overscan option?

[Konsolkongen]

Integer scaling to 1088px with a few lines cut off in a 1080p output would have been awesome

That's how the 1080i mode works. At full zoom it's 4 off the top and 4 off the bottom. Sharpscale will do the full zoom automatically and also remove the bilinear filter.

It should look pretty close to 540p if you can tweak the deinterlacing method on your TV. Zooming the sharpscale 720p mode is a good alternative if your TV has a custom zoom

That's a good point. Hopefully the OSSC Pro or the Morph can fix this and make 1080i usable

[BazookaBen]

Sorry I’m totally new into these monitors. Where do I find the overscan option?

On my PVMs there is a button on the front for it. Other monitors, it might be hidden in a menu, not sure.

But you definitely want to make sure you're using Sharpscale with Adrenaline first.

[magus90]

Need some more comments on Chovy Sign lag though

I never ended up using chovy sign. I caved and got a PSP go, cradle, and component cables at the recommendation in this thread. But i got a great deal from a friend for $180, so i am not complaining. I am curious to see how much of a difference it is, and how it looks with the 5x. The lag should be better, but i am wondering what the image quality will be compared to the PSTV with sharpscale.

The PSTV was definitely not a bad option but i noticed the following.

Using the 5x with an adapter
-At 1080i, i noticed some weird graphical glitches at the top 10% of the screen. Possibly from the HDMI to component adapter i was using to get the signal to the 5x.
-At 720p, i noticed the top half of the screen actually wobbling if that makes sense. It was waving left and right. Again possibly the HDMI to component. Also the 5x would only let me output in 720p mode when sending a 720p signal.
-At 480p it looks solid, less sharp but still not bad, and the input lag was solid as well.

Using the Mclassic
-At 480p was severely blurry and smudged to my eyes and looked awful (lowest input lag option though)
-At 720p it was better but i was getting screen tearing. (Out of all the options this gave me the best experience overall)
-Mclassic can't deinterlace so 1080i was useless. BUT the mclassic had the best input lag out of all situations. 480p seemed to be a bit quicker than 720p, but 720p was much clearer and a better trade off.

Essentially, every single option had some flaw that was frustrating me. I was able to squeeze some input lag out by using frame lock mode on the 5x. Something not all tv's can handle.

[BazookaBen]

I go HDMI>VGA with my PC CRT at 1080i, sharpscale.

Never noticed those issues you were talking about for 720p/1080i, so I imagine it's your adapter. I had tearing in some games, but that's because a lot of PSP games don't use vsync

[magus90]

I go HDMI>VGA with my PC CRT at 1080i, sharpscale.

Never noticed those issues you were talking about for 720p/1080i, so I imagine it's your adapter. I had tearing in some games, but that's because a lot of PSP games don't use vsync

Hmm, so would those games without Vsync always have vsync issues regardless of being played on the PSP go vs PSTV?

[magus90]

Also, how has your experience been with the PSP go? Less lag? Thanks for the help.

The PSP Go with dock and component cable going to my RetroTink 5x is the best performing way I have tried and definitely has less lag than a PSTV so I'm happy with it, with the shmups I mentioned before. (I don't have a CRT with component so haven't tried that)

As for platformers and RPGs etc, I guess that would depend entirely on the performance requirements of the individual games. So strictly turn-based RPGs should be fine, but platformers that require pinsharp accuracy and timing would be affected just as much as shmups are.

I forgot to ask you about the image quality. How does the PSP go look through the 5x compared to the PSTV with the sharpscale? In your video it looked pretty clear, but you never know how it looks in person.

I know the lag is better on the go but ts it comparable to the PSTV sharpscale in sharpness? Thanks for the help!

[Rulumi]

Hadn't seen corroborated mentions of the GPU being included, I saw comments from yifan_lu who was a name I knew mentioning the CPU being included, so I was confident in sharing that. Regardless compatibility seems to be near 100% which is very nice.

How the PSPEMU is done and coded; how the hardware interacts, acts and more indicates that it should be there.

You can ask on the HENkaku Discord server and actual devs can confirm to you that's there as well if needed to.

Why is the PSTV limited to 1080i anyway? Would that be a bandwidth limitation, or they they cheap out and used an ancient HDMI chipset?

The MIPI DSI to HDMI chip that devkits and the PSTV use seems to only be able to do 1920x1080 at 60Hz on interlaced.

The developer of Sharpscale got 1080p30Hz and custom resolutions working the past year, but they haven't release these yet.

Hmm, so would those games without Vsync always have vsync issues regardless of being played on the PSP go vs PSTV?

The screen tearing that happens in some games happens not only on the Vita but on PSP consoles as well, incluiding the PSP's own screens. To remove these on real hardware maybe it'll be needed to mod the games with these issues themselves.

------------------
Point apart and in my own opinion of course, and mostly because I don't have a 5x so my use of the PSP video out it's with an OSSC.

The PS TV with sharpscale is surely cleaner and sharper being all digital, but the PSP Go is fine if scaled correctly despite the video output being a bit "muddy", just not perfect.
Just note that PS1 games via component output on all PSP models with component video out have a few considerations to make before according to what you'll want from it for these.

[magus90]

Hmm, so would those games without Vsync always have vsync issues regardless of being played on the PSP go vs PSTV?

The screen tearing that happens in some games happens not only on the Vita but on PSP consoles as well, incluiding the PSP's own screens. To remove these on real hardware maybe it'll be needed to mod the games with these issues themselves.

------------------
Point apart and in my own opinion of course, and mostly because I don't have a 5x so my use of the PSP video out it's with an OSSC.

The PS TV with sharpscale is surely cleaner and sharper being all digital, but the PSP Go is fine if scaled correctly despite the video output being a bit "muddy", just not perfect.
Just note that PS1 games via component output on all PSP models with component video out have a few considerations to make before according to what you'll want from it for these.

Ahh okay, thanks. So it sounds like you essentially have to choose what matters most then.

Crystal clear image= PSTV Sharpscale
Lowest Input lag= PSP Go

I have a PSP go on the way this week. I will try both and see what's best overall. The Mclassic looked awful IMO so that's going back. I had a hard time with the 5x though using the PSTV, i am not sure why.

In 720p on the PSTV, the 5x wouldn't let me choose any other output but 720p. I don't know why. So that mode is useless for me.
In 1080i on the PSTV, going into the 5x, i was getting image issues. Essentially the top 5% of the image there was a horizontal line across and it was repeating the lower 5% of the image, but on the top as well. No idea why. It would pop in every few seconds and go away, and repeat. Otherwise it looked nice and the input lag was manageable.

[bobrocks95]

In 720p on the PSTV, the 5x wouldn't let me choose any other output but 720p. I don't know why. So that mode is useless for me.

I think 1440p on the RT5X is 1920x1440p, so it can't truly linedouble a 1280x720p source (though cutting off horizontal lines wouldn't be a problem with a PSTV using sharpscale).

The experimental RT5X firmware with 2560x1440p support might allow a 2x for 720p sources? EDIT: Yes I think so, see here: https://www.retrorgb.com/retrotink-5x-e ... -v257.html