PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collections

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Rulumi
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Rulumi »

Restart_Point wrote: Testing again the other day, I think that using Sharpscale (looks good - dont know if it affects lag)...
...and is some combination of the baked-in PSP emulation that the PSTV uses...
Sharpscale shouldn't add lag.
And PSP games on the Vita are not really quite emulation in the classic sense of the word, for the most part.
NewSchoolBoxer wrote: I assume with no proof that 480i video out to CRT would give better pixel response than PSP's own early LCD screen.
It should be better than the 2000 screen, shouldn't matter much on a 3000 or Go thought.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by bahamutfan64 »

Rulumi wrote: Should be fine for most people probably, although you may get slight hiccups on the performance if your hardware isn't strong enough according to your settings.
But I thought the point of using a PS Vita/TV would be to use a form of native hardware (for the most part).
For sure, I was just curious about it from an alternative-to-the-original-hardware perspective.
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Restart_Point
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Restart_Point »

I've given in and bought a PSP Go and just ordered an official Sony dock from Yahoo Auctions Japan (much fairer than Ebay prices)
The PSTV doesnt quite cut it for PSP shmups imho. Looking forward to seeing the performance of the Go using the RetroTink 5x. Knowing me, i'll find some gripe with that too XD. The joys and expenses of collecting.
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Rulumi
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Rulumi »

It will be doing analog output, so I don't think you'll have much issue with the input response from the PSP itself, you can make games run at 333mHz if you want more performance.
Mostly is that it won't be as clean and sharp as the PS TV I guess.
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Triple Lei
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Triple Lei »

Restart_Point wrote:I've given in and bought a PSP Go and just ordered an official Sony dock from Yahoo Auctions Japan (much fairer than Ebay prices)
The PSTV doesnt quite cut it for PSP shmups imho. Looking forward to seeing the performance of the Go using the RetroTink 5x. Knowing me, i'll find some gripe with that too XD. The joys and expenses of collecting.
If you have the dock, you're pretty much set! You just need to make sure your Dual Shock 3 / Sixaxis controller is always charged because you won't get any on-screen indicator of low battery for the PSPgo or the controller. And charging PS3 controllers was always annoying because you couldn't simply use a USB wall charger; you either had to get a PlayStation 3 AC Adaptor (which charges the controller, keypad, and headset from a power outlet), or use a Windows PC with some tweaking. And you don't want to charge your paired (and now PSPgo-dedicated) PS3 controller on the PS3 ever again because then you'd have to pair your controller to your PSPgo again. :x
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

After 22 days the blue crystal Walmart exclusive Dualshock 4 v2 came in a plastic bag with box ripped open. I give up. Back to PS2 wired life.
Restart_Point wrote:I've given in and bought a PSP Go and just ordered an official Sony dock from Yahoo Auctions Japan (much fairer than Ebay prices)
The PSTV doesnt quite cut it for PSP shmups imho. Looking forward to seeing the performance of the Go using the RetroTink 5x. Knowing me, i'll find some gripe with that too XD. The joys and expenses of collecting.
I realize you're UK but screw buying American consoles that have inflated prices from collectors who won't even use them. Last attempt I bought a PSP-2000 and got shipped a 1000 missing the thumb stick that I was able to dispute from picture mismatch. I bought Japanese PSP-3000 for less and switched language to English after watching online video. Official component video out cables are cheap and plentiful and Japan has generic ones and D-Terminal. I've never had an issue with a Japanese seller who would be aware that I am a proxy bidder.

5x is good product but plenty of 20" CRTs with component video across the pond. My 2009 Samsung LCD takes composite and component with de-interlacing that looks like hell. PSP progressive scan for the win. Game Mode lag is very tolerable.
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Rulumi
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Rulumi »

There's no reason to use interlaced on the PSP apart from PS1 games and I guess maybe play an interlaced video file?
Well and of course use a 15kHz CRT (3000 and Go only for PSP games on interlaced).
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by BazookaBen »

Triple Lei wrote: or use a Windows PC with some tweaking
There are official drivers for the Dualshock 3 you can download. they used to come with the PS Now app.

So with those installed I think it will charge without needing to mess with Device Manager
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Restart_Point »

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:5x is good product but plenty of 20" CRTs with component video across the pond. My 2009 Samsung LCD takes composite and component with de-interlacing that looks like hell. PSP progressive scan for the win. Game Mode lag is very tolerable.
Component was never a big thing in the UK in the CRT days, RGB Scart was the quality option here (as i'm sure you know)
I have a CRT but my in my main playing area I use an LG flat panel with great HDMI response times using the 5x, so i'm really looking forward to seeing what the difference from the PSTV is going to be with the PSP Go and the 5x, still waiting for it all to arrive but i'll definitely update in this thread when I finally get to testing it! I'll definitely be making a youtube video too

And agreed about buying stuff from Japan (I use Zenmarket proxy buyer); every item I have bought so far, controllers, consoles, games, has been in the condition described - just make sure to check out the reputation of the seller (obvs) and read the magic words "Operation Confirmed" before buying :D
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Restart_Point
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Restart_Point »

OP here, following my previous replies, I made a video with some game capture using the RetroTink 5x with the PSP Go, take a look if this is in your wheelhouse or have settings suggestions etc...Cheers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0SOmWARoc

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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by magus90 »

WobblingPixels wrote:That the main reason I don't use PSTV for PSP and PS1 games. The inputlag destroys all my enjoyment to play any game.
My recommendation would be to buy a PSP Go, add micro sd adapter, component cable and use PS3 controller.
Is the PSTV PSP input lag that bad? i am in the process now of trying to find the best way to play PSP games, and i thought i was on the right track with the PSTV and sharpscale. But it sounds like lag could be a deal breaker for me here. Thanks.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by BazookaBen »

The input lag wasn't noticeable for me playing the Wipeout games.

Probably because you essentially go from ~30fps on a PSP to 60fps on the Vita TV. So any extra lag comes out in a wash because of the higher frame rate.

But from what I'm reading here, playing a locked 60fps game would have a noticeable extra frame of lag
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by bobrocks95 »

BazookaBen wrote:The input lag wasn't noticeable for me playing the Wipeout games.

Probably because you essentially go from ~30fps on a PSP to 60fps on the Vita TV. So any extra lag comes out in a wash because of the higher frame rate.

But from what I'm reading here, playing a locked 60fps game would have a noticeable extra frame of lag
Huh, did that game have an unlocked framerate or something, or are you just talking about the PSP screen refreshing an odd way or something? I would figure the PSP partial emulation (supposedly the CPU is crammed into the SoC from what I've read) would be a little bit faster maybe but not enough to double the FPS.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by BazookaBen »

bobrocks95 wrote:Huh, did that game have an unlocked framerate or something,
Yeah, which is why I had the "~" next to 30. Though it looks very much like 30, I imagine it's just floating in that range most of the time

Usually, unlocked frame rates look godawful but for some reason the PSP wipeout games play pretty good on a PSP. Probably because no vsync, and the action is always moving forward which might hide the bad frame pacing and tearing

And actually, they do technically have a lock, but it's 60fps, because action looks very smooth on my CRT at 60hz from the Vita TV. And even then it's not 60fps 100% of the time, there are still some dips.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by bobrocks95 »

BazookaBen wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Huh, did that game have an unlocked framerate or something,
Yeah, which is why I had the "~" next to 30. Though it looks very much like 30, I imagine it's just floating in that range most of the time

Usually, unlocked frame rates look godawful but for some reason the PSP wipeout games play pretty good on a PSP. Probably because no vsync, and the action is always moving forward which might hide the bad frame pacing and tearing

And actually, they do technically have a lock, but it's 60fps, because action looks very smooth on my CRT at 60hz from the Vita TV. And even then it's not 60fps 100% of the time, there are still some dips.
You're definitely safer to push a higher overclock on the PSTV as well, since you don't have to worry about battery life or I'd assume heat.

Unrelated but do Pure and Pulse have a lot of content missing in HD/Omega Collection? Omega is all I've picked up myself, though the US doesn't seem to talk about Wipeout much.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by BazookaBen »

bobrocks95 wrote: Unrelated but do Pure and Pulse have a lot of content missing in HD/Omega Collection? Omega is all I've picked up myself, though the US doesn't seem to talk about Wipeout much.
Yeah, there are a ton of tracks in those games that aren't in the PS3/4 game. Especially when you download the DLC.

And I wish people of all nationalities talked about Wipeout more. It's the best racing series HANDS DOWN. Hopefully we get a new one for PSVR2 8)
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Restart_Point »

magus90 wrote:Is the PSTV PSP input lag that bad?
I haven't studied it scientifically, but in my personal experience I find the input lag playing PSP shmups on PSTV annoying enough to stop me from doing it, having spent a good few days researching and testing the various 'best' ways to do it. Sharpscale makes no difference to lag.

My best guess is that the lag is inherent in Sony's implementation of PSP emulation (or some other as-yet unchangeable factor of the PSTV) and currently that is the only method, whether you use PSN store, Chovy Sign, Ark or Adrenaline Bubbles etc to access it, all of which I tried.

If you want to play particularly lag-sensitive PSP games like horiz/vert shmups I would not recommend the PSTV. Now I'm debating whether I should sell it as that's really all I got it for.

I've never owned a Vita, maybe the issue is more apparent with the PSTV, but I don't want a Vita, so in the end I got a PSP Go and dock from Japan, somewhat mitigating the western prices they sell at.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by magus90 »

Restart_Point wrote:
magus90 wrote:Is the PSTV PSP input lag that bad?
I haven't studied it scientifically, but in my personal experience I find the input lag playing PSP shmups on PSTV annoying enough to stop me from doing it, having spent a good few days researching and testing the various 'best' ways to do it. Sharpscale makes no difference to lag.

My best guess is that the lag is inherent in Sony's implementation of PSP emulation (or some other as-yet unchangeable factor of the PSTV) and currently that is the only method, whether you use PSN store, Chovy Sign, Ark or Adrenaline Bubbles etc to access it, all of which I tried.

If you want to play particularly lag-sensitive PSP games like horiz/vert shmups I would not recommend the PSTV. Now I'm debating whether I should sell it as that's really all I got it for.

I've never owned a Vita, maybe the issue is more apparent with the PSTV, but I don't want a Vita, so in the end I got a PSP Go and dock from Japan, somewhat mitigating the western prices they sell at.
Do you think it would be noticeable for platformers and Rpg's? Or is it just for fast paced fighters and shmups?

Also, how has your experience been with the PSP go? Less lag? Thanks for the help.

I am a hair away from just using PPSSPP and emulating, but i am not a huge fan of emulation. In this case, it seems PPSSPP is nearly indiscernible from real hardware.
BazookaBen wrote:The input lag wasn't noticeable for me playing the Wipeout games.

Probably because you essentially go from ~30fps on a PSP to 60fps on the Vita TV. So any extra lag comes out in a wash because of the higher frame rate.

But from what I'm reading here, playing a locked 60fps game would have a noticeable extra frame of lag
Thanks! I am mostly curious for platformers and RPG's. It's either i make this PSTV work, or i use PPSSPP on the gaming computer in my setup. I am not sure which experience i would enjoy more at this point.
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by bobrocks95 »

magus90 wrote:
Restart_Point wrote:
magus90 wrote:Is the PSTV PSP input lag that bad?
I haven't studied it scientifically, but in my personal experience I find the input lag playing PSP shmups on PSTV annoying enough to stop me from doing it, having spent a good few days researching and testing the various 'best' ways to do it. Sharpscale makes no difference to lag.

My best guess is that the lag is inherent in Sony's implementation of PSP emulation (or some other as-yet unchangeable factor of the PSTV) and currently that is the only method, whether you use PSN store, Chovy Sign, Ark or Adrenaline Bubbles etc to access it, all of which I tried.

If you want to play particularly lag-sensitive PSP games like horiz/vert shmups I would not recommend the PSTV. Now I'm debating whether I should sell it as that's really all I got it for.

I've never owned a Vita, maybe the issue is more apparent with the PSTV, but I don't want a Vita, so in the end I got a PSP Go and dock from Japan, somewhat mitigating the western prices they sell at.
Do you think it would be noticeable for platformers and Rpg's? Or is it just for fast paced fighters and shmups?

Also, how has your experience been with the PSP go? Less lag? Thanks for the help.

I am a hair away from just using PPSSPP and emulating, but i am not a huge fan of emulation. In this case, it seems PPSSPP is nearly indiscernible from real hardware.
BazookaBen wrote:The input lag wasn't noticeable for me playing the Wipeout games.

Probably because you essentially go from ~30fps on a PSP to 60fps on the Vita TV. So any extra lag comes out in a wash because of the higher frame rate.

But from what I'm reading here, playing a locked 60fps game would have a noticeable extra frame of lag
Thanks! I am mostly curious for platformers and RPG's. It's either i make this PSTV work, or i use PPSSPP on the gaming computer in my setup. I am not sure which experience i would enjoy more at this point.
Do you already have a PSTV or just looking to buy something for PSP on TV? Lag can be fairly subjective, there's a certain threshold where everyone will probably notice it when it's really bad (6-7+ frames or something) and then there's the gray area where some people will notice, maybe if they're sensitive to it or really familiar with the game, while others don't notice a problem at all, maybe in the 4-5 frame range.

BazookaBen put it as "an extra frame of lag". I'd love to see scientific camera + LED tests from someone, but as it stands it might be personal or genre-dependent. On a fast display (<1 frame for both of my sets) I didn't notice any lag for PSP games on PSTV, but I wasn't playing anything as demanding as a port of an old shmup.

If you have a PSTV just give it a shot, if you're buying from scratch... Sounds like PSP Go unless you have qualms with its connectivity, storage, or controller options.

Last note in favor of PSTV is you can very easily use a USB flash drive for much cheaper storage, I don't know if the Go is restricted to Memory Stick Duo's or some silly Sony thing like that.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Triple Lei »

I'm hoping I can mod my arcade stick (powered by an AxisDapter) with some sort of light-on-press to get to the bottom of things. I did just order these from Paradise Arcade shop:
https://paradisearcadeshop.com/products ... ystick-led
https://paradisearcadeshop.com/products ... t-standard
Maybe I could tap into power here. Or just jam a wire into the tiny molex connector for the battery?


I personally felt the extra lag of the PSTV over PSPgo with Bluetooth enabled; it was like turning off your TV's game mode setting. I think I only tried it with Adrenaline and Einhander, but that was enough.


For storage, I've been meaning to try this for my other two PSPgos:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1026943068 ... rd-adapter


And hey, I'm willing to play WipeEout Pure and WipEout Pulse with others. :mrgreen: I got all versions and all DLC. I hope Adhoc Party on PS3 still works. It did work for WipEout Pure at least back in the day, and I can't imagine Pulse not working.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

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Triple Lei wrote:I'm hoping I can mod my arcade stick (powered by an AxisDapter) with some sort of light-on-press to get to the bottom of things. I did just order these from Paradise Arcade shop:
https://paradisearcadeshop.com/products ... ystick-led
https://paradisearcadeshop.com/products ... t-standard
Maybe I could tap into power here. Or just jam a wire into the tiny molex connector for the battery?
I haven't looked into how people hook this up, but if you just wire an LED to a power point on the board it's just going to be continuously on whenever the controller is right? You need some sort of circuit that's only completed when a button is pressed.
I personally felt the extra lag of the PSTV over PSPgo with Bluetooth enabled; it was like turning off your TV's game mode setting. I think I only tried it with Adrenaline and Einhander, but that was enough.
What controller did you use out of curiosity, DS3 or DS4?
For storage, I've been meaning to try this for my other two PSPgos:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1026943068 ... rd-adapter
Wacky but it looks like it fits inside okay if you fold the ribbon cable. Unfortunately that seller is in Ukraine, so that might not be available for a while...
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Re: PSTV - Minimising lag in Gradius and Salamander Collecti

Post by Restart_Point »

magus90 wrote: Also, how has your experience been with the PSP go? Less lag? Thanks for the help.
The PSP Go with dock and component cable going to my RetroTink 5x is the best performing way I have tried and definitely has less lag than a PSTV so I'm happy with it, with the shmups I mentioned before. (I don't have a CRT with component so haven't tried that)

As for platformers and RPGs etc, I guess that would depend entirely on the performance requirements of the individual games. So strictly turn-based RPGs should be fine, but platformers that require pinsharp accuracy and timing would be affected just as much as shmups are.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Triple Lei »

bobrocks95 wrote: I haven't looked into how people hook this up, but if you just wire an LED to a power point on the board it's just going to be continuously on whenever the controller is right? You need some sort of circuit that's only completed when a button is pressed.
Ack, I think you're right. :oops: But I do have another arcade stick to put that LED into, so I didn't just flush down $20. And anyway, I think buttons really are the way to go for light-on-press; I did have such a lighted button setup in another stick (Toodles Remora) which replaced the original Mad Catz daughterboard PCB, and that worked because those Mad Catz sticks all had a common ground, which isn't the case for the SixAxis. This is all just outside of my knowledge of arcade sticks but perhaps I don't actually need custom PCBs for this if I'm just lighting up one button and can make do with off-the-shelf parts.

bobrocks95 wrote: What controller did you use out of curiosity, DS3 or DS4?
Pretty sure I used a DS3 with my PSTV.

You know what, I'm reminded that I can use my LED stick on my PSTV with this MayFlash adapter. I only bought it because one reviewer said it worked with the PSTV, and it does. I did feel lag (maybe because I was really looking for it), but I only ever used it on the PSTV, and when I wasn't using that adapter, all I played on the PSTV back then was probably Persona 4 Golden... not exactly a twitchy game. I put the adapter away when movement in Neo Geo Heroes (PSP) felt laggy and decided to just stick to other non-twitchy games, but now that I know it's the PSTV itself that's laggy, I'm willing to revisit the adapter.

bobrocks95 wrote:Wacky but it looks like it fits inside okay if you fold the ribbon cable. Unfortunately that seller is in Ukraine, so that might not be available for a while...
Oh, I didn't check the seller's location. :oops: There were other sellers offering pretty much the same thing, but I liked the one I linked to the best.

Before they were on Etsy it was just one guy in Japan making two small production runs and that was it. My slow experience with the Photofast adapter on regular-sized PSPs kinda soured me to extra-large storage solutions on PSP, but I think the Game Categories plugin (which you can find in here along with other must-haves) can probably cut out a lot of long loading times in the XMB.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by ldeveraux »

Restart_Point wrote:
magus90 wrote: Also, how has your experience been with the PSP go? Less lag? Thanks for the help.
The PSP Go with dock and component cable going to my RetroTink 5x is the best performing way I have tried and definitely has less lag than a PSTV so I'm happy with it, with the shmups I mentioned before. (I don't have a CRT with component so haven't tried that)

As for platformers and RPGs etc, I guess that would depend entirely on the performance requirements of the individual games. So strictly turn-based RPGs should be fine, but platformers that require pinsharp accuracy and timing would be affected just as much as shmups are.
Consequently, why are the go docks so darn expensive now?
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Restart_Point »

ldeveraux wrote:Consequently, why are the go docks so darn expensive now?
I think it's purely down to supply and demand, the PSP Go was very late in the PSP lifecycle and didn't sell that well, so a niche demand peripheral for it sold even less. There's just not many out there I guess.
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by ldeveraux »

Restart_Point wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:Consequently, why are the go docks so darn expensive now?
I think it's purely down to supply and demand, the PSP Go was very late in the PSP lifecycle and didn't sell that well, so a niche demand peripheral for it sold even less. There's just not many out there I guess.
That's what i was afraid of! I was going to buy one because I've never had it, but not at $150!
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Restart_Point »

ldeveraux wrote:That's what i was afraid of! I was going to buy one because I've never had it, but not at $150!
One way to get one at a more reasonable price is use Yahoo Auctions Japan or similar and a proxy buyer like Zenmarket, I got it for about $100 that way but that's still pretty steep for what it is
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by bobrocks95 »

That's insane since it looks like the dock or a 3-in-1 cable are the only way to charge and get video out at the same time.

Apparently PSTVs are crazy expensive now too, considering I grabbed 2 of them when Walmart was giving them away for $20 new...
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by ldeveraux »

Restart_Point wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:That's what i was afraid of! I was going to buy one because I've never had it, but not at $150!
One way to get one at a more reasonable price is use Yahoo Auctions Japan or similar and a proxy buyer like Zenmarket, I got it for about $100 that way but that's still pretty steep for what it is
Yeah that's too much hassle to go through for something I didn't know I needed ;)
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Re: PSTV input lag in PSP games Gradius & Salamander Collect

Post by Rulumi »

I already said this before in the thread, but Adrenaline adds extra input latency in comparision to the stock "PSPEMU" because of the extra things it does to output and so.

The stock "PSPEMU" is obviously still not as "zero latency" as a PSP would be, but for people more tolerable to lag it may be fine for some.
Worth the look if you already have a PS TV but not worth the risk if you don't have one already.

If someone wants as much low latency as possible, a PSP is the best option even if the video output is a bit bad.
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