Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/56?

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Dooberknob
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Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/56?

Post by Dooberknob »

I'm looking to get a lever with a very short engage and throw. Has anyone been able to compare a Sanwa JLF with a Kowal actuator vs. JLF with Otto DIY's largest actuator vs. a Seimitsu LS-40 vs. an LS-56? Also, are there any other/better options that I'm missing here?
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Gunstar
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by Gunstar »

Dooberknob wrote:I'm looking to get a lever with a very short engage and throw. Has anyone been able to compare a Sanwa JLF with a Kowal actuator vs. JLF with Otto DIY's largest actuator vs. a Seimitsu LS-40 vs. an LS-56? Also, are there any other/better options that I'm missing here?
I have an LS-56 and JLF with a Kowal actuator, throw distance is very similar, I'd say the LS-56 feels ever so slightly shorter. Engagement is better on the LS-56 imo, don't know if my JLF+Kowal needs a service though. Can't speak about the others.

Worth noting some of the criticism of the Kowal here: https://www.reddit.com/r/fightsticks/co ... s_and_mod/ apparently it messes with the way diagonals are hit.

I've been meaning to try those aluminium Paradise arcade actuators, would like to hear if anyone has an opinion on those.
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buttersoft
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by buttersoft »

Gunstar wrote:I've been meaning to try those aluminium Paradise arcade actuators, would like to hear if anyone has an opinion on those.
I have a couple of their delrin actuators at +1mm and +0.5mm. I prefer the 0.5mm one. I then use some 10mm inner diameter tubing around the narrower part of the actuator to limit throw. (i did have to sand the tubing a bit thinner to be happy).

So I get fast activation and short throw. Works fine for me.
Saturngamer81
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by Saturngamer81 »

Im one of those people that can switch sticks and be happy. Though as of late I installed LS40 sticks in my daily drivers for fun. I have to say the short throw in them plus the spring tension makes them feel super solid and in many ways the most versatile stick I have used to date. So try these over the ls 56
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Gunstar
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by Gunstar »

buttersoft wrote:
Gunstar wrote:I've been meaning to try those aluminium Paradise arcade actuators, would like to hear if anyone has an opinion on those.
I have a couple of their delrin actuators at +1mm and +0.5mm. I prefer the 0.5mm one. I then use some 10mm inner diameter tubing around the narrower part of the actuator to limit throw. (i did have to sand the tubing a bit thinner to be happy).

So I get fast activation and short throw. Works fine for me.
Appreciate this, will try and pick up some delrin actuators.
viletim
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by viletim »

Dooberknob wrote:I'm looking to get a lever with a very short engage and throw. Has anyone been able to compare a Sanwa JLF with a Kowal actuator vs. JLF with Otto DIY's largest actuator vs. a Seimitsu LS-40 vs. an LS-56? Also, are there any other/better options that I'm missing here?
None of the Seimitsu or Sanwa joysticks have a short throw as stock, but Seimitsu are shorter than Sanwa. There's hardly any difference between the throw distance of Seimitsu's various joysticks, they're all 7-8mm.

If you want a joystick with a really short throw, consider an Atari 2600 joystick, throw < 3mm. You will need to stock up on replacement parts though.
bigbadboaz
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by bigbadboaz »

don't forget you can get the short-throw kit for the LS-56 - very cheap and simple - so it can be even tighter than stock. I prefer it over the 40 plus the 40 has no such kit. I'd go with this if you have to buy blind.

That said, so much of sticks is preference. It's REALLY hard to tell what you will think of a stick based on someone else's writeup.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by bobrocks95 »

I just installed an Otto V5 kit in a JLF and the largest +1mm actuator gives it quite a short engage and throw. The Otto plus a heavier spring (I would recommend getting both a 1.5lb and 2lb spring and comparing) make it feel much, much tighter than stock, though I have a 2lb spring in and I'm thinking 1.5 would be ideal.

I'd imagine the delrin or aluminum +1mm actuators feel fairly similar, though shipping from Paradise Arcade was like $10 USD for me so I figured I might as well get the Otto with free shipping in an existing Arcade Shock order.

Can't directly compare to Seimitsu offering though unfortunately.
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azmun
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by azmun »

viletim wrote:None of the Seimitsu or Sanwa joysticks have a short throw as stock, but Seimitsu are shorter than Sanwa. There's hardly any difference between the throw distance of Seimitsu's various joysticks, they're all 7-8mm.
I would recommend for the TC/OP to consider Seimitsu LS-62.
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bcass
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by bcass »

buttersoft wrote:I have a couple of their delrin actuators at +1mm and +0.5mm. I prefer the 0.5mm one.
Any idea where I can buy the 0.5mm delrin actuator? The 1.0mm version is easy to get, even here in the UK, but I can't find the 0.5mm one anywhere. I know Paradise sell 0.5mm actuators but those are metal and I would prefer delrin.
ulfrinn
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

I have a question, for people with both. I have a JLF with an oversized actuator and something I noticed is diagonal presses take much more distance traveled to actuate. Which makes sense, and the same amount of distance traveled diagonally is going to be reduced distance in either cardinal direction. Plus the shaft/actuator being circular means the distance between the actuator and the switch gets further apart due to the nature of a circle being thinner across the edge than through the middle. But I haven't used a Seimitsu with the levers on them, does that make diagonals any more consistent compared to cardinals or is there still going to be tradeoffs in that department?

And how does something with a square actuator, such as a the Eurojoysticks act in regards to that?

It seems for schmups platformers, and other non-fighting genres with 8 direction movement that it would be beneficial for the engage distance between diagonals and cardinals to be roughly the same, or as close as possible.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by bigbadboaz »

The Seimitsu sticks actually vary in how large the diagonal engage zones are. For example, the 56 which I have posted much love for in the past probably has its biggest weakness in overly sensitive diagonals. Their engage zones are proportionately larger than for strictly cardinal inputs. The 32 has a much more even distribution but its own weaknesses IMO.

The motion on a Eurojoystick actually feels completely round despite the square actuator. This is likely due to the actuator being designed to pivot around the shaft as it comes into contact with the switches surrounding it.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

So, I'm not just imagining that Sanwas take more effort to actuate diagonals when compared to cardinals, and oversized actuators won't fix that issue, but the LS-32 is consistent all around? What about the other LS sticks like the 40, 58, 60, 62? I've often wondered if a square actuator in a JLF would be more consistent in diagonals, but I guess unless you had a way to fix that actuator in place, it'd just end up feeling like a Eurojoystick. Then I also had an idea of 3D printing some microswitch housings that have flat caps on the buttons themselves, kind of like how a NeoGeo CD controller stick works. But, if the levered system of Seimitsu's are consistent all around there's no point reinventing that wheel.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by bigbadboaz »

Not more effort (spring tension is consistent all around) but more distance, yes.

I haven't tested all those Sei sticks to know. But the 32 is close to uniform all around, and I would agree it's better just to switch sticks than go to all that effort creating custom mods. And no way at all to know how a square actuator would perform in a JLF without building it. But I suspect there's a reason Sanwa didn't do it themselves.

Maybe just try an LS-40. I'm not as experienced with it as the two I brought up, but I believe it's the closest to the JLF of the three. You will get slightly more spring tension and, if I'm recalling correctly, more balanced engage zones. I'm sure some of the LS-40 aficionados here (some people really love it) can either correct me or offer more input.

Also, I distinctly remember someone once calling the 55 "a better JLF". Now, not many people talk about that stick to know if that one person was right. And I have no idea what its engage zones are. But might help you.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

Oh, I'm not the OP, it just sounds to me like the OP is looking for the exact same thing I am... something extremely responsive with a short, quick through that does well in quick movements. My only issue using a "modded JLF" is that the diagonals do take nearly double the distance before diagonals actuate compared to cardinals, so with up, down, left, right having a very short throw, the four diagonals end up with noticeably longer throws which makes it annoying to play games that may require quick, sudden movements in a diagonal direction, such as a schmup. And I was wondering if the levered switches Seimitsu uses were a solution to that.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

I have a Seimitsu LS-56 in a focusattack shopping cart that I am considering buying, but also considering the LS40 for what I am looking for.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by bigbadboaz »

I would probably get the 40 based on what I said above. If you get the 56, you may feel you now have the opposite problem with the overemphasized diagonals.

Remember though that the 40 is going to take you back to a stock, longer throw and does not have the well-known actuator mods the JLF does.

If you do go with the 56 (I'm still not sure you should) you can get the cheap and easy short-throw mod right there on FA at the same time.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

Isn't the 56 one of the more compact designed levers from Seimitsu though? Some of their stuff, like the 32, seems like it'd have a hard time fitting in a lot of arcade controllers. That's what had me considering the 56 with the short throw mod over the 40. After all, either one could probably be fine tuned to the same preference anyway.
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buttersoft
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by buttersoft »

ulfrinn wrote:...the shaft/actuator being circular means the distance between the actuator and the switch gets further apart due to the nature of a circle being thinner across the edge than through the middle.
Would that be fixed slightly by using a conically-tapered actuator like the stock one or the Paradise Arcade ones over the Kowal's circular shape? I think it would, and the more extreme the taper the more effect it would have, though you could only go so far within reason.
bcass wrote:
buttersoft wrote:I have a couple of their delrin actuators at +1mm and +0.5mm. I prefer the 0.5mm one.
Any idea where I can buy the 0.5mm delrin actuator? The 1.0mm version is easy to get, even here in the UK, but I can't find the 0.5mm one anywhere. I know Paradise sell 0.5mm actuators but those are metal and I would prefer delrin.
That reddit thread linked above says it's been out of stock for ages. You could send them an email. They're nice people overall, just don't bring up shipping costs because i don't think there's much they can do and it bugs them.
Last edited by buttersoft on Sun Sep 04, 2022 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
ulfrinn
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

buttersoft wrote:
ulfrinn wrote:...the shaft/actuator being circular means the distance between the actuator and the switch gets further apart due to the nature of a circle being thinner across the edge than through the middle.
Would that be fixed slightly by using a conically-tapered actuator like the stock one or the Paradise Arcade ones over the Kowal's circular shape? I want to think about that.
bcass wrote:
buttersoft wrote:I have a couple of their delrin actuators at +1mm and +0.5mm. I prefer the 0.5mm one.
Any idea where I can buy the 0.5mm delrin actuator? The 1.0mm version is easy to get, even here in the UK, but I can't find the 0.5mm one anywhere. I know Paradise sell 0.5mm actuators but those are metal and I would prefer delrin.
That reddit thread linked above says it's been out of stock for ages. You could send them an email. They're nice people overall, just don't bring up shipping costs because i don't think there's much they can do and it bugs them.
I don't think a conical taper would offer much benefit to that. A lot of it has to do with basic physics. Let's say for the sake of argument your switch actuates in 1mm of travel. moving the actuator 1mm in the direction of one of those switches should activate it. But moving the actuator 1mm in a diagonal direction would result in either switch being pressed less than 1mm. So in order to move the left and up switches 1mm each, the actuator has to move greater than 1mm in a diagonal direction.

If the switches are like the ones in a JLF, then as you move the actuator in a diagonal direction, the part of the actuator that contacts the switch gets smaller, requiring even more travel to actuate those switches. So I think with levers, the distance before a diagonal actuates will be closer than with switches that don't have levers, but it's still not going to be the same distance as with cardinals.

This is why octagonal gates give you a much smaller window to actuate the diagonals than a square gate. You can see with square gates basically how much further the actuator has to go in a diagonal direction compared to cardinal directions to actuate. Diagonals, because you're actuating two switches and not one, would also require more force to actuate than a direct cardinal press. This is true of d-pads as well.

If you want the absolute shortest throw possible in a diagonal direction, and consistency with cardinals, there's probably no way to actually do that outside of analog, or a stick with eight switches.
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buttersoft
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by buttersoft »

No, not much benefit, but it's all pretty tight tolerances, so maybe not none either. That reddit thread was a specific complaint *after* changing to a (cylindrical) Kowal actuator, remember. Have you tried an enlarged tapered actuator?

Also, re lever-switch micros. I've only ever used cheap sticks of that type with cheap micros in them, but i find them a pain. However, given you can bend the levels yourself to change actuation details like diagonals. Indeed with cheap ones you often have to do it in order to hit the diagonals to begin with.

How about an optical like the Rollie? Or a Magstick? I have no idea what they feel like, but i reckon i'd miss the feel and confirmation of the micros. (EDIT: i think the magstick has software to do the same as below? Might need to confirm that for yourself tho).

As it happens friend of mine built his own as a mod to a JLF - leaving the micros in place so it feels *exactly* the same as a stock JLF but has three operating modes. First it works with just the micros, then it works as a completely analog stick on the Hall-effect mag sensor, then last it can work as a digital stick on that sensor (complete with tuning software to adjust overall activation distance, cardinal vs corner width, and cardinal vs corner specific actuation distance). The mod does require the JLF shaft be shortened and tapped at the bottom to attach the magnet for the sensor (below the actuator, so all the JLF hardware sits in the exact same place). But that's tricky because the shaft is stainless steel. And the hardware is an STM dev board so not cheap. And it needs some 3d printing... Most amazing stick i have ever used, though, but i can't convince him to release the specs publically :( If enough ppl expressed interest he might look at selling a few, IDK.

I suppose there would be a difference between stock activation of the micros and an adjusted mag-sensor activation. So, a discrepancy between when the switches activate and when they sound like they have, if you adjust the sensor distance. I suppose changing the actuator could help that. And while i'm sure most ppl wouldn't even notice, this is a specialist area and we're discussing nuance :)
Last edited by buttersoft on Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
ulfrinn
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

Why would you need to cut and tap the shaft of the JLF for that mod though? They make magnets in rings that would still work with a hall sensor. If you got one of the same inside diameter as the shaft, and the outside diameter of the bottom end of the actuator you could shorten the actuator itself and stick the magnet against that, then secure it all with the c-clip as normal and it should work.

If I was going to make an analog arcade stick and just fine tune where cardinals and diagonals register, hall effect is the way I'd go for sure. The only console controller I am aware of that used them in their stick was analog Sega controllers like the Dreamcast controller, and that's why even though the pivot may wear out on a DC thumbstick, it'll never drift. I think optical would only work if you were going to use them as analog sensors and use coding on the micro controller to detect when a diagonal is intended. At that point though you may be better off with the hall effect sensor which would probably work even better and would be a lot simpler and cheaper to implement. While I'm not opposed to analog joysticks sending digital signals when a certain threshold is passed, I do tend to prefer feedback and more of a switching action on controls that are entirely digital.

This kind of leads into what I was discussing in another thread I started, the way console "arcade" controllers used to work. They used mushy rubber membranes, sure, but that's an issue with materials and budget and doesn't have anything to do with the merits of the mechanics themselves. You could even build a proper "arcade" stick that used a disc around the shaft to press on vertically mounted switches, pack it all into a housing with a 5 pin connector and an S-plate as well and I think it could work very well for schmups, and be capable of accurate utilizing the shortest throw possible in all directions.

Also, was I correct in my assertion above about the LS-56 being smaller physically than the LS-40, while still being able to be modded to feel like an LS40 with a shorter shaft and short-throw mod? If someone is looking to stick a Seimitsu stick into a controller intended for a Sanwa, the larger Seimitsus may have a harder time physically fitting into them.
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buttersoft
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by buttersoft »

ulfrinn wrote:Why would you need to cut and tap the shaft of the JLF for that mod though?
His explanation was that the travel on the magnet on the bottom of the stock shaft was too long, and his cheap Hall-effect sensor lost too much accuracy. He could either shorten the shaft, or add another sensor. The coding got much more involved when dealing with two sensors, and he owns an old industrial lathe, so he went that way. It was a proof of concept project, at the time.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

Yeah, it would be best to keep the magnet closer to the point of the pivot. My ideas for a custom stick involve using a spherical/radial bearing, which is essentially one metal ring captive inside another metal ring, able to turn and spin freely. If the ID of that bearing was enough larger than the diameter of the stick shaft, making it so you could put a ring magnet in between, centered in the pivot, that would probably be ideal. I'll have to keep that idea in mind if I ever decide to go the analog route.

Where I am at personally in looking for a stick is looking for one that could actually serve as a replacement to a d-pad for a variety of 2D gaming. Not so much fighters, but more 2D action, platformers, and to a lesser extent, schmups, to see if I can get used to an arcade style controller for these games, and have a very durable, easily modified, easily maintained, and easily repaired device to play them with, or if I'm just going to have to deal with controllers, which for the most part all have the same design flaws, cannot really be modded, and are fairly poorly made by comparison. So that's what has me looking at LS40s and LS56s at this point

My idea is to first put one of these into the arcade controller I already have, and if I like using it, then to probably put it into a housing on it's own, by itself, into something with a nice, comfortable rest for my left hand, and a separate button board for the right. I am even considering all button controllers for that. I can't stand gaming with a keyboard, but I keep wondering if there was a comfortable amount of space to rest my hands, and the buttons were larger, and placed in a more comfortable layout than WASD, I might not have such a problem with that.

But for now I think my next step is to stick an LS-40 or LS-56 into this arcade controller I have now (still not sure which of the two) and see how that feels for the stuff I play. With what I currently have I found the most comfortable position for my hand is to rest the side of my hand on the controller and actually use my pinky, ring, and middle fingers around a bat top. The stick isn't really tall enough for me to use my index finger and thumb that way, so I'm not sure if I should use a taller stick to try to integrate those fingers, or stick with a pretty short stick, and continue using those bottom 3, which doesn't feel bad to me either. I also wonder if the LS-56 having a longer throw isn't because it has a taller shaft.

Then there's also the LS-32 option. For a small additional cost it seems you can get a replacement pivot to eliminate that "pivot hop" problem which I believe is what people are referencing when they say the 32 has it's own problems.
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buttersoft
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by buttersoft »

How do you mean replace the d-pad for 2d games, and why? I use my arcade sticks for everything, and i play mostly metroidvanias and MiSTer. Do you not find yours useable?
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

I haven't been able to get used to arcade controllers for that, no. I find them to have way too much "deadzone" and too long of a throw for what I would prefer, which is why I'm going to order a Seimitsu and try it out. Any why replace d-pads? Every d-pad out there has a major flaw to it, and they're all short lived before needing some kind of repair or part replaced. Even ones that start out good become mush with a bunch of accidental inputs after about a month.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

I decided I'm going to get an LS-40 to check out. Later on, I'm probably going to buy more/other sticks to play around with too.
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bcass
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by bcass »

I've given up on using non-conical actuators on my JLF as you need to use oversized to get diagonals working, but that then makes cardinal directions way too sensitive. Not good at all for tap-dodging / micro-dodging. The Kowal actuator also has various design flaws compared to stock, as pointed out in this reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/fightsticks/co ... s_and_mod/

One of the replies in that thread suggests either an octagonal gate, or a squircle gate:

https://imgur.com/za6CaR4

But there's no trace of that being available anywhere.
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by bobrocks95 »

ulfrinn wrote:I haven't been able to get used to arcade controllers for that, no. I find them to have way too much "deadzone" and too long of a throw for what I would prefer, which is why I'm going to order a Seimitsu and try it out. Any why replace d-pads? Every d-pad out there has a major flaw to it, and they're all short lived before needing some kind of repair or part replaced. Even ones that start out good become mush with a bunch of accidental inputs after about a month.
What are you doing to these poor D-Pads?
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Re: Lever with shortest engage/throw? Modded JLF vs. LS 40/5

Post by ulfrinn »

I use them a lot. I'm not a fan of SNES controllers, PS1 d-pads aren't that good to begin with, so when I find a good controller I like, I use it to the point of wearing it out which doesn't take as long as you might think before the membranes become mush. When this happens, things like accidental diagonals start to become fairly common, to the point of making some games unplayable because of it. My hope is an arcade controller will hold up longer and remain more consistent over time. For about $22 to stick an LS-40 into the arcade controller I already have, it's really not that much of an upfront cost for me to find out.
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