Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jitter

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lukilla
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by lukilla »

Taiyaki wrote:
lukilla wrote:I got rid of a couple trinitrons, the micro noise was very noticeable, they are overrated.

Instead I got a bunch of Tau´s with the GL1 chassis, pretty awesome:

https://i.imgur.com/Hi1iJJx.jpg
I love the TAU's too, Panasonic made incredible CRT's, especially in Europe. Although I wouldn't replace my FV grade Trinitron's for them, Panasonic is my close second favorite brand for consumer CRT's.
Actually I had one of the early Tau´s but it also had noticeable jittering, my other 4 are later models with the GL1 chassis and are way better when it comes to jittering (my 2001 JVC´s also are pretty good in that regard). This is a CT-F2125G:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYFoHb1VPOI
Niro starship
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Niro starship »

Something has to be triggering that horizontal sync issue phenomenon to the jungle circuitry, no?, What's causing it?

That would be the low resolution? Maybe the refresh rate? We know for sure each console has its own specs.

Take a look here:
https://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/20 ... erate.html

Not every gaming console gets the horizontal jittering video issue. We need to figure out...

Imagine an implemented circuit board into a SCART switcher that could solves those out of sync video issues.

Latest CRT tvs which manufactured during 2000s decate with that single chip processor anomaly MKL shmups user describes could benefit and work like new again.

Definetely I'm not talking about high end BVM or PVM that are not considered horizontal sync phenomenon - sensitive, just the consumer CRT TVs.
Last edited by Niro starship on Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Josh128
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Josh128 »

Niro starship wrote:Something has to be triggering that horizontal sync issue phenomenon to the jungle circuitry, no?, what's causing it?

That would be the low resolution? Maybe the refresh rate? We know for sure each console has its own specs.

Take a look here:
https://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/20 ... erate.html

Not every gaming console gets the horizontal jittering video issue. We need to figure out...

Imagine an implemented circuit board into a SCART switcher that could solves those out of sync video issues.

Latest CRT tvs which manufactured during 2000s decate with that single chip processor anomaly MKL shmups user describes could benefit and work like new again.

Definetely I'm not talking about high end BVM or PVM that are not considered horizontal sync phenomenon - sensitive, just the consumer CRT TVs.
If the baseline jitter can be observed on the internal OSD menu (which in all the sets Ive ever seen, it is), its going to be present no matter what source you connect to it.
Niro starship
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Niro starship »

Josh128 I think you misunderstood it. TV is in excellent condition. Actually I play playstation 2 games often, with no horizontal micro jitter at all. Not even one pixel is moving, steady video signal, flawless image, and also the OSD menu is excellent. I also watch dvd movies to my dvd player, with excellent steady video signal.


The other users that are experiencing this phenomenon, do they notice it with all the original hardware of retrogaming consoles and other hardware like dvd players as well? Every SCART input device they connect to their TVS? Guys, team coordination is required here.

Guys we have to be more specific and stay on topic posting cautiously, rather than speak generally so as to resolve this issue.
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Josh128
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Josh128 »

Niro starship wrote:Josh128 I think you misunderstood it. TV is in excellent condition. Actually I play playstation 2 games often, with no horizontal micro jitter at all. Not even one pixel is moving, steady video signal, flawless image, and also the OSD menu is excellent. I also watch dvd movies to my dvd player, with excellent steady video signal.


The other users that are experiencing this phenomenon, do they notice it with all the original hardware of retrogaming consoles and other hardware like dvd players as well? Every SCART input device they connect to their TVS? Guys, team coordination is required here.

Guys we have to be more specific and stay on topic posting cautiously, rather than speak generally so as to resolve this issue.
I didnt misunderstand. It doesnt matter if the TV is in excellent condition or not-- if its a Trinitron TV, there is a 99.9% chance it has jitter even in the OSD without anything connected to it-- if you havent seen it, you likely didnt look close enough. Its far more difficult to spot on interlaced content then it is on progressive.

Jitter from a particular source is an altogether different issue, and is not related to the TV or monitor at all, but to the source video output circuitry and/or cable used.
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Syntax
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Syntax »

Correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding of how the OSD sync is handled was that it uses an internal sync source when no external sync source is present.
I have TVs here that have bad OSD jitter using internal sync(static screen) but become rock solid when connecting a console.
I have not tested if different consoles produce different levels stability.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by maxtherabbit »

Syntax wrote:Correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding of how the OSD sync is handled was that it uses an internal sync source when no external sync source is present.
I have TVs here that have bad OSD jitter using internal sync(static screen) but become rock solid when connecting a console.
I have not tested if different consoles produce different levels stability.
same here
Niro starship
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Niro starship »

I can confirm that I have noticed the wobble jitter on the green OSD characters of channel selection numbers with no source attached, and I'm telling you there is a lot of jitter. But when an input source is connected and currently switched on to either SCART input 1 or SCART input 2, then the OSD channel numbers become rock solid for the respectively active / switched on input device.

But I'm not quite remember if I have noticed the jitter wobble phenomenon to my TV's integrated OSD settings menu that include color, brightness, contrast, sound and all that stuff.

Sorry for any confusion I may have caused to my previous post.

EDIT 1 Also my ps3 console to my sony trinitron have excellent steady video image, like my ps2 console.

EDIT 2 Allright I turned on my Sony trinitron, and tested the OSD menu with all the image settings and the jittery sync issue is also there too. Guys you are right, amazing, why I haven't seen this before? Probably there was no need to use the OSD menu settings with no input device switched on, that's why I didn't notice it.
deezdrama
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by deezdrama »

Would be great if we could figure out a workaround for this issue. I noticed this a couple years ago and was told bad caps in horizontal deflection circuit so here my dumb ass is recapping my 27fs120.
Oh well, Ill put in some 105* low esr caps in the power and deflection circuits and neck board and at least will know its been done and can preserve my jitterbox for generations to come :mrgreen:

https://youtu.be/KzN17uWqtbs
thchardcore
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by thchardcore »

Do the PVMs do this? The JVC TM sets all do this and it is annoying as fuck since you need to use them sitting rather close.
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MKL
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by MKL »

thchardcore wrote:The JVC TM sets all do this and it is annoying as fuck since you need to use them sitting rather close.
I have never tested those monitors myself but their schematics show they have deflection ('jungle' in Sony terms) and video in the same IC (TA1276AN) so the jitter issue would be in accordance with my view expressed above that only the sets with a dedicated deflection IC are jitter-free. The BM-1400 has a HA11423 as the deflection/jungle IC and a TDA4680 as the video IC so I expect this monitor to be jitter-free.
Niro starship
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Niro starship »

deezdrama yes, this is the jitter I'm getting on my sony crt tv whilie gaming, like the one you've uploaded on youtube.
deezdrama
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by deezdrama »

Niro starship wrote:deezdrama yes, this is the jitter I'm getting on my sony crt tv whilie gaming, like the one you've uploaded on youtube.
Well it bugged me so bad I went full OCD and replaced all 120 electrolytic capacitors, reset yoke, physically disabled Velocity Modulation from the neck board, and when jitter was the same I removed the TV tuner signals from reaching the IC/jungle chip by removing R063 and C313 based on talking to someone with an extensive background in CRT service and repair who is also working on the open source CRT project. He stated hes seen interference like this due to TV tuner sync signal not being properly canceled out when using other input sources.
I cant say 100% if it helped or not.... It appears to have cut jitters down but could be a placebo at this point Ive scored 9 pvm's and been busy servicing them and not really done any further testing.
I should of done a controlled test of same content,same camera and settings,same evironment, same settings on tv, etc..... Before and after

But heres videos of the process if anyone is interested...


Part1...Sony 27fs120 CRT Skit/ Desoldering 120 Capacitors... https://youtu.be/Bg4-sKPuQpI

Part2...Sony 27fs120 Replacing Caps/Geometry/Tuner Signal Disabling Mod... https://youtu.be/WlI06WLuIoE
Last edited by deezdrama on Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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matt
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by matt »

deezdrama wrote:I removed the TV tuner signals from reaching the IC/jungle chip based on talking to someone with an extensive background in CRT service and repair who is also working on the open source CRT project. He stated hes seen interference like this due to TV tuner sync signal not being properly canceled out when using other input sources.
I cant say 100% if it helped or not.... I should of done a controlled test of same content,same camera and settings,same evironment, same settings on tv, etc.....
There may be something to this. I've noticed that the KD-27FS170 appears to have cleaner component video than the earlier models, despite using the same BA-6 chassis. This was the last SDTV that Sony produced for the US market, and is a stripped-down version that's missing most of the extra "features" of earlier models. It doesn't have tilt correction or velocity modulation, and it has a digital tuner. I don't know if it's just my imagination, but the picture does seem less jittery than other BA-6 TVs.
deezdrama
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by deezdrama »

matt wrote:
deezdrama wrote:I removed the TV tuner signals from reaching the IC/jungle chip based on talking to someone with an extensive background in CRT service and repair who is also working on the open source CRT project. He stated hes seen interference like this due to TV tuner sync signal not being properly canceled out when using other input sources.
I cant say 100% if it helped or not.... I should of done a controlled test of same content,same camera and settings,same evironment, same settings on tv, etc.....
There may be something to this. I've noticed that the KD-27FS170 appears to have cleaner component video than the earlier models, despite using the same BA-6 chassis. This was the last SDTV that Sony produced for the US market, and is a stripped-down version that's missing most of the extra "features" of earlier models. It doesn't have tilt correction or velocity modulation, and it has a digital tuner. I don't know if it's just my imagination, but the picture does seem less jittery than other BA-6 TVs.
Someone else Ive talked to mentioned the extra coil for tilt on the yoke could cause issues as well, maybe thats why the fs170 doesnt have the artifact if it doesnt have tilt correction.Ive also heard sony deviated from prior sync standards and so older consoles suffer the artifact but newer systems like ps2 and ps3 dont but havnt tested that theory.
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Josh128
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Josh128 »

I have a KD-27FS170 and it has no rotation adjustment and has a digital tuner just as Matt says. Its got a super vibrant colorful picture but its also got the micro-jitter. In fact, its the first CRT I ever really noticed it on.
deezdrama
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by deezdrama »

Josh128 wrote:I have a KD-27FS170 and it has no rotation adjustment and has a digital tuner just as Matt says. Its got a super vibrant colorful picture but its also got the micro-jitter. In fact, its the first CRT I ever really noticed it on.
There goes the tilt theory then lol
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matt
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by matt »

Yes, it definitely has micro jitter! It just (to my eyes) seemed a little less apparent than the FS120. Like I said, I might have been imagining things.

So do the earlier BA-5D Trinitrons which still use the old separate Micon/jungle chip design. I does seem to me that the OSD (and, by extension, RGB mods) are less jittery than the native component inputs.
deezdrama
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by deezdrama »

matt wrote:Yes, it definitely has micro jitter! It just (to my eyes) seemed a little less apparent than the FS120. Like I said, I might have been imagining things.

So do the earlier BA-5D Trinitrons which still use the old separate Micon/jungle chip design. I does seem to me that the OSD (and, by extension, RGB mods) are less jittery than the native component inputs.
Yeah I kind of wish I had the 5d and not the ba-6 because I wanted to do rgb mod to see if it stabilized the jitters any but quickly realized a whole separate circuit/breadboard would have to be built to rgb mod my fs120 and right now I have too many pvm's to play with so kind of forgot about the 27" fs120 for now.
Iz-GOod
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Iz-GOod »

Just to confirm, is this what everyone is talking about? https://imgur.com/a/WdH4IQn

Just got a KV-32XBR250 and it has some significant jitter/shimmer as per the vids above. My KV-32V35 has none of that, and neither does my Panasonic Tau CT-27SX12AF.

I tried several service menu settings and nothing seemed to help.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by bobrocks95 »

Bumping since I'm curious if anybody has done any more experimentation in the meantime on this. I have a 32" FV310 with a BA-5D chassis that I've just now noticed this problem on while calibrating the set and looking very closely. I wouldn't say it looks nearly as bad as a lot of videos posted in here though, I didn't know it was a thing until I was shoving my eyes up to it to calibrate beam convergence.
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Ryeno
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Ryeno »

This is caused by velocity modulation or maybe bad caps in the horizontal deflection circuit. On some Sony sets, setting VM to 0 in the user menu doesn't disable it fully and the VM board must be either disconnected or VM set to 0 in the service menu.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by bobrocks95 »

Unplugged my V board that handles Velocity Modulation and the jitter is identical, though my vertical static green-magenta convergence went to crap along with it (greens super bloomed). Deezdrama also did a full recap and the jitter remains present- I'm assuming he did everything including the deflection circuitry. The part 2 video he posted earlier is actually what I saw on Youtube when I googled about the jitter.
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Ryeno
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by Ryeno »

ASDR wrote:Here's a static picture of the wobble:

Image
This is caused by VM or maybe bad caps.
deezdrama wrote: Part1...Sony 27fs120 CRT Skit/ Desoldering 120 Capacitors... https://youtu.be/Bg4-sKPuQpI
@3:50 This is normal.
bobrocks95 wrote:Unplugged my V board that handles Velocity Modulation and the jitter is identical, though my vertical static green-magenta convergence went to crap along with it (greens super bloomed).
Sounds like something is wrong with your TV or calibration.
Last edited by Ryeno on Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bobrocks95
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by bobrocks95 »

Ryeno wrote:@3:50 This is normal.
Well fixing it is what this entire thread is about so...
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matt
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Re: Let's discuss Sony consumer CRT 'wobble'/horz. micro jit

Post by matt »

bobrocks95 wrote:Unplugged my V board that handles Velocity Modulation and the jitter is identical, though my vertical static green-magenta convergence went to crap along with it (greens super bloomed). Deezdrama also did a full recap and the jitter remains present- I'm assuming he did everything including the deflection circuitry. The part 2 video he posted earlier is actually what I saw on Youtube when I googled about the jitter.
Not sure exactly what you're describing here, but I have noticed that BA-5 and BA-5D Trinitrons all have misaligned chroma in component video mode. It leads to some weird artifacts, especially with yellows and reds, that look superficially like bad convergence. IIRC on BA-5Ds you can reduce this by adjusting VSPF in the service menu, but if it's set so that the Chroma is fixed there are some ghosting effects next to bright objects that can't be completely eliminated.

As such, these are some of the few TVs that really do benefit from an RGB mod, despite having component inputs. It does seem to be that there is less jitter through RGB, as well.
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