MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

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Bassa-Bassa
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Bassa-Bassa »

As someone who wants to jump in the Mister thing this year, I get more and more confused with all the recent options in regards to what's the best one for CRT usage and future compatibility. This one seems too expensive for such an ugly case, even for European shipping.
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ASDR
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by ASDR »

I'm kinda concerned that the upcoming PS1 and Saturn cores might need some hardware changes. Especially the Saturn with its 7 or whatever different memory busses/pools. The digital IO board allows for a second memory expansion to be installed, wonder if that'll end up being used here. If you haven't jumped into the MiSTer yet, maybe wait for those two most demanding cores to shape up.
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Syntax
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Syntax »

That thing is a POS.

The creator is hated by the community for acting like he designed a retro system from scratch for clicks and likes. He made a crappy plastic shell wow. And gives nothing back to the scene, no props to Sorg or anything.

Look at xtream mister if you want something decent.

https://mobile.twitter.com/xtreme_mister?lang=en
Last edited by Syntax on Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ldeveraux
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by ldeveraux »

Not at that price
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bobrocks95
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by bobrocks95 »

ASDR wrote:I'm kinda concerned that the upcoming PS1 and Saturn cores might need some hardware changes. Especially the Saturn with its 7 or whatever different memory busses/pools. The digital IO board allows for a second memory expansion to be installed, wonder if that'll end up being used here. If you haven't jumped into the MiSTer yet, maybe wait for those two most demanding cores to shape up.
I wish I knew what the transition from Mist to Mister looked like. Surely at some point the hardware will need to be universally upgraded past the DE-10 Nano board, when logic blocks are exhausted and development interest in newer and newer consoles continues. The current board has been very expandable so far, but it won't last forever. Will people be willing to replace their whole units for what will start as a core or two?
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ASDR
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by ASDR »

bobrocks95 wrote:
ASDR wrote:I'm kinda concerned that the upcoming PS1 and Saturn cores might need some hardware changes. Especially the Saturn with its 7 or whatever different memory busses/pools. The digital IO board allows for a second memory expansion to be installed, wonder if that'll end up being used here. If you haven't jumped into the MiSTer yet, maybe wait for those two most demanding cores to shape up.
I wish I knew what the transition from Mist to Mister looked like. Surely at some point the hardware will need to be universally upgraded past the DE-10 Nano board, when logic blocks are exhausted and development interest in newer and newer consoles continues. The current board has been very expandable so far, but it won't last forever. Will people be willing to replace their whole units for what will start as a core or two?
Good point, I have no idea how that happened. Was the Mist board end-of-life'd or did everybody just move to the DE-10 because it was such a good deal and so much more powerful? Right now I don't expect the FPGA community to move on from the DE-10 anytime soon, but I could imagine a redesigned IO board or RAM expansion solution to be required for cores like Saturn with tons of different pools of RAM.
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Gunstar
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Gunstar »

The board they designed with the over voltage, over current and thermal trip protection looks great. Not a fan of the 3D printed case, with aftermarket SNES/MD/Saturn/Dreamcast injection moulded cases available or on the way, I think that should have been something they looked at offering.

I think I'm leaning towards the Mister Express more
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ZellSF
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by ZellSF »

I'm pretty sure I've seen quite a few better looking MiSTer cases. Especially if you count mini-itx converted cases.

They all are too big though. Not sure what the MiSTer's community fascination with wasting space is.
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Unseen
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Unseen »

ASDR wrote:Good point, I have no idea how that happened. Was the Mist board end-of-life'd
The MiST uses a custom-designed board, not a repurposed general FPGA dev board. It is still available to buy and it will likely only be EOLed if the FPGA or microcontroller on it are not available anymore for a reasonable price. Even though it is not really an open design (schematics and layout are available as PDF files only), some deriverates - sometimes using a newer FPGA - already exist (Mistica, SiDi)
or did everybody just move to the DE-10 because it was such a good deal and so much more powerful?
I guess someone (likely Sorgelig) noticed that the DE-10 Nano could serve as a more powerful replacement by adding an SD-RAM and putting in a lot of work into building a common framework for porting the cores.
Last edited by Unseen on Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AyeYoYoYO
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by AyeYoYoYO »

I greatly appreciate all the info-heavy, concise, informative posts by you dudes.

Knew I could get the real gritty truth from y’all 8)
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Harrumph
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Harrumph »

Syntax wrote: The creator is hated by the community for acting like he designed a retro system from scratch for clicks and likes.
Not sure which community you are referring to, but I don't see any hate in the thread on misterfpga.org at least.
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3031

Wether it is a worthwile project or not is another question, personally I don't think it's attractive but lots of people seems to think otherwise, according to that thread.

To me, the MSTR case looks really cool, and a very ambitious project, but progress seems to have slowed down a bit lately.
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1000
Aquamentus
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Aquamentus »

I think it looks awesome. I have long hated the “brick with wires coming out of every direction” styling of all the previous mister case designs. This looks like a console, has the ports in the right place like a console, and the addition of swappable ports to plug in real controllers through the front accessory port is a great touch. Everyone is so salty about the creator, but he is the first one to make a fairly mass market mister setup that doesn’t look like a brick being accosted in every orifice from all directions. I personally don’t care about the individual makers personality, background, politics, etc - all I care about is the product, and this one is the coolest I have seen that’s actually been put up for sale as more than just a one off or concept. I will say that I am disappointed that the case isn’t injection molded, but I am holding out hope that this changes. 3D printed cases are not very pretty with the rough texture and visible lines.
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Gunstar
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Gunstar »

Harrumph wrote:
Syntax wrote: To me, the MSTR case looks really cool, and a very ambitious project, but progress seems to have slowed down a bit lately.
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1000
Nice, I like that it's taking design cues from the CPS2
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Austin
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Austin »

It's on the pricey end (seems to be about $515 USD without VAT), but I think it looks pretty cool.

For reference, MiSTer Addons sells an assembled kit for $370. Then tack on another $70 if you want a case, and another $35 if you want the VGA to SCART adapter. With the Multisystem's added features like the built-in SCART output and a more consolized case, the price doesn't seem too far fetched. If for some reason I wanted to have a second MiSTer, I would consider it.
Last edited by Austin on Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Osirus
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Osirus »

Bassa-Bassa wrote:As someone who wants to jump in the Mister thing this year, I get more and more confused with all the recent options in regards to what's the best one for CRT usage and future compatibility.
A DE-10 Nano with an Analog IO board and SDRAM expansion.
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Syntax
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Syntax »

Osirus wrote:
Bassa-Bassa wrote:As someone who wants to jump in the Mister thing this year, I get more and more confused with all the recent options in regards to what's the best one for CRT usage and future compatibility.
A DE-10 Nano with an Analog IO board and SDRAM expansion.
Running a digital IO board is the future of MiSTer really, no analog output.
Frees up more IO pins, and if you want analog video you use a HDMI to VGA converter and put the MiSTer HDMI output into direct video mode.
This gives you 240p 12 bit analog video, instead of the 8 bit you normally get from the analog IO board.

Xtream MiSTer also outputs 24 bit analog video, but it does this by stealing pins used for the second SD card on some obscure computer cores.
So it can output HDMI and Dual 24 bit analog video(To a mounted IPS LCD and CRT) simultaneously.
Last edited by Syntax on Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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buttersoft
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by buttersoft »

It's f@#king expensive. Adding "Mister" is becoming like adding "Baby" or "Wedding" in front of anything. Or just adding "Rare" on eBay listings. It's seems pretty cool though, but also pretty standard. It's not like they added a decent HDMI-to-VGA conversion into it or anything to get best video quality. Not that i'm saying i could, mind you.

I enjoy watching RMC even if it's slightly cringe sometimes. But even in the youtube video with the designer, Neil weasels out of proper acknowledgement of the MiSTer project and who created the designs they're working from. He is extremely clear about their offering being one of many, and MiSTer is a community project in a sense, sure, but people create those cores. And the hardware has even more specific sources. He doesn't even name a few key names.
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Syntax
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Syntax »

I couldn't of said it better.

The laugh they both gave out when asked about software updates was a slap in the face for the core developers.

They are selling units to a new crowd that will have 0 clue how to setup a MiSTer and not offering support?
Watch the forums turn into a cluster fuck of dumb questions.

Also, dedicating the board to a set ram size dooms it for future compatibility.
There is a reason the big boys stopped making all in one boards.
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azmun
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by azmun »

Syntax wrote:Running a digital IO board is the future of MiSTer really, no analog output.
Frees up more IO pins, and if you want analog video you use a HDMI to VGA converter and put the MiSTer HDMI output into direct video mode.
This gives you 240p 12 bit analog video, instead of the 8 bit you normally get from the analog IO board.
Can you expound on this a bit? Freeing up more IO pins in order to place what device or feature? Are there any differences in quality both visually or performance wise between a 12-bit as opposed to 8-bit video signal? The transition from HDMI to 240p may require some tinkering while a direct analog IO board (one seller uses a Sega Saturn port) may be more plug and play which would appeal to some of us.
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Syntax
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Syntax »

You would only notice the difference between 8bit and 12bit on some computer cores, the console cores wouldn't really benefit.

I can not remember the reason for freeing up the ports and changing to digital sorry. Probably different ram or some other addon.

The official IO board designs are here on Github https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Hardwar ... ns/IOBoard

**EDIT**
Xtream MiSTer does 24bit, and can change to the lower bitrate for unpatched cores.
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ASDR
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by ASDR »

I think the highest color depth consoles that'll run on the MiSTer (SAT/PS1) are like 15/18bpp so the quality should be fine.

I'm a bit worried that we need a second SDRAM expansion for the SAT/PS1 cores and the analog IO board would have to be revised for that to work. But from what I've read the digital IO board analog output solutions are also somewhat weird. You have to track down a HDMI2VGA converter with a very specific chipset. Also, is there a solution for RGBS to a consumer TV? I know you can get VGA/RGBHV that PC CRTs and many PVMs take, but what about CSync/SCART?
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Syntax
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Syntax »

The analog IO board outputs RGBS/RGBHV/Component 15K/31K all configurable in the MiSTer.ini
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ASDR
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by ASDR »

Syntax wrote:The analog IO board outputs RGBS/RGBHV/Component 15K/31K all configurable in the MiSTer.ini
Yes, but I asked about the digital one. I don't own it and only looked at cursory, but since it allows adding another RAM expansion it might get more interesting in the future. Can you get all the same RGBS/RGBHV/YUV etc. with the digital board and converter(s)?
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Syntax
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Syntax »

Ah I see what you mean now, I haven't tried direct video mode myself so never really thought of having to combine HV sync on a 15k monitor.

I guess its all up to that specific chipset convertor if it has a csync output. Else some diodes would probably work.

Really id like to see the digital board take care of all this and still have dual output.
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ASDR
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by ASDR »

Yeah, it seems like there's room for some consolidation with all these boards and different variants of things. I was always thinking they could just add 128MB SDRAM and a USB hub to the analog IO board and the MiSTer would just be the DE10 and a single hat on top. I guess this is a bit like the world of Linux distros, everybody wants something a little different so it's all a bit fiddly, confusing and fragmented.
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Galgomite »

Directed at no one in particular: The MiSTer itself isn't very expensive for what it is but many MiSTer cases (and other enhancements) certainly are. I wish more people would get off the fence and start small-- the stock $140 DE10 Nano has its own housing and runs perfect Genesis, PC Engine CD and more, before you upgrade anything. (That's at least $400 in Analogue consoles already.) All you need is a dumb little OTG cable and temporary use of a USB hub and keyboard to get rolling. Setup is easier than Raspberry Pi. If you want to pretty things up later, go ahead! I certainly have, but it's all optional. I'm tired of reading Tweats about the cost of getting into MiSTer-- it's the deal of the century.
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by bobrocks95 »

Galgomite wrote:Directed at no one in particular: The MiSTer itself isn't very expensive for what it is but many MiSTer cases (and other enhancements) certainly are. I wish more people would get off the fence and start small-- the stock $140 DE10 Nano has its own housing and runs perfect Genesis, PC Engine CD and more, before you upgrade anything. (That's at least $400 in Analogue consoles already.) All you need is a dumb little OTG cable and temporary use of a USB hub and keyboard to get rolling. Setup is easier than Raspberry Pi. If you want to pretty things up later, go ahead! I certainly have, but it's all optional. I'm tired of reading Tweats about the cost of getting into MiSTer-- it's the deal of the century.
Definitely a fair point and the route I would go, though looking now it seems like the price is closer to $180-190 at this point.
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by Galgomite »

bobrocks95 You're right about the price going up.
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bobrocks95
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Re: MiSTer Multisystem ... DISCUSS

Post by bobrocks95 »

I'm sure it's part shortages + demand increasing, it may go back down or it may hover around there for quite awhile. Not a huge increase at least.
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