D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

bobrocks95 wrote:You can nix the last possibility then. I'm just kinda spitballing, it's always hard to find the problem in cases like this. Would honestly be easier if one part of the chain wasn't working at all.
I bought the female-to-female VGA coupler just now from Amazon. I'll give it a try and let you guys know the results. You said that the coupler will bypass the SW4, could you elaborate on that for me please?
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bobrocks95
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by bobrocks95 »

Connect one of your console cables to one end of the coupler, and connect the Retro-Access VGA to SCART cable to the other end. That way nothing's being routed through the Extron switch.

If the problem is still there, then something's going on with the switch. Otherwise, I'd figure it must be the Retro-Access cable. They are good about repairing or sending replacements if you email them and walk through what you've done to test.
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

bobrocks95 wrote:Connect one of your console cables to one end of the coupler, and connect the Retro-Access VGA to SCART cable to the other end. That way nothing's being routed through the Extron switch.

If the problem is still there, then something's going on with the switch. Otherwise, I'd figure it must be the Retro-Access cable. They are good about repairing or sending replacements if you email them and walk through what you've done to test.
I received the coupler today, I love Amazon's fast shipping. I connected the RA VGA to SCART cable to the coupler and the SNES and played for 10 minutes without a single blackout. I couldn't connect the phoenix adapter to anything though, so I had to play without sound. I can conclude that it was the SW4 switch that was causing the problem. In that case, should I just buy another SW4 switch and hope for the best? Do you know why this one may have been causing a problem, so that I could know what to check for when buying a different one? Also, in regards to the too short cable, I know I chose 1 ft., but do you think they would be willing to exchange it for a longer one?
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

On another note, I just happen to have both male and female VGA couplers on hand. When connecting a female and male coupler to the RA VGA to SCART cable then to the SW4, the blackout still occur.
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bobrocks95
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by bobrocks95 »

I don't think RA will do exchanges on any custom ordered items, but I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask. Thankfully with VGA cables it's not ideal but you could keep the F-F coupler and basically extend the 1 foot cable.

For the SW4 I think it warrants a new thread, you might get some Extron Crosspoint or other VGA Ars owners in there more easily. Opening it up for a basic visual inspection is a decent first step. If you have a multimeter I'd still say to check the voltages coming out of the output of the switch, for the sync and RGB lines. Extron switches definitely mess with sync voltages.
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

I just wanted to put in my final thoughts on this thread. Now that I’ve had the opportunity to get the D-Sub 15-Pin cables I needed, and have found out that the issue with my Extron SW4 was caused by me putting it in Auto mode, I can at last say that VGA is the superior choice and I am glad to have made the change. Scart has excellent picture quality, but has a weird voltage pin on it that carries the risk of destroying your equipment, and overtime damages your equipment anyway just by being plugged in, like a slow death. Component RCA has inferior picture quality to Scart, but there’s no risk of damaging your equipment, plus it’s way more familiar to those of us in North America. In the end, VGA wins out, because it has all the advantages of both of these formats, with none of the drawbacks. VGA is something many, if not all of us grew up with and have been familiar with since childhood. All of our computers had it, and many still have it, until HDMI phases it out from PCs all together. It has picture quality equivalent to that of Scart, and doesn't have any weird voltage issues that kill your hardware. I would encourage people who are looking to start a retro gaming setup to consider VGA over the other formats available.

However, I still feel that the availability of Extron switches sucks. I have no idea how to get one outside of eBay and that isn't used. I think the company Extron doesn’t deal with individual customers, so you can’t just buy one from their website, you have to buy a large stock of them, and I think you have to have your own company just to be able to contact them in the first place. The other problem I faced when making my switch from a Scart to a VGA setup was with the audio conversion from Phoenix Block to 3.5 mm. I know a lot of you guys recommended this little piece that converts Phoenix Block male to RCA female, but then that would require another conversion from RCA female to 3.5 mm male, so that would be two conversions, all because it’s impossible to find a Phoenix Block male to 3.5 mm male converter. Why don't they exist? I ended up buying a custom made cable from RetroAccess, which wasn’t cheap. I still wish SuperG would make a VGA switcher. I also wish this information about the superiority of VGA could have been available to me before, as I never heard mention of its advantages on My Life in Gaming or Retro RGB.
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

I also wanted to say that I wish Mike Chi would make a Retrotink5X version that had D-Sub 15-Pin support, instead of Scart. SuperG made a very niche JP21 version of his gscartsw, I wish the same could be done with a VGA version of the RT5X. A small number of them could be made for the few of us who want them. Scart has been nicknamed Shart by both Voultar and EposVox, Shart meaning a combination of shit and fart.
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by fernan1234 »

Odolwa wrote:I also wanted to say that I wish Mike Chi would make a Retrotink5X version that had D-Sub 15-Pin support, instead of Scart. SuperG made a very niche JP21 version of his gscartsw, I wish the same could be done with a VGA version of the RT5X. A small number of them could be made for the few of us who want them. Scart has been nicknamed Shart by both Voultar and EposVox, Shart meaning a combination of shit and fart.
You can remind him gently and politely over twitter or the RT5X topic here on shmups. I think he put the D-Sub version plans aside after the HD15-2-SCART adapter was announced, but now that it's unclear whether it will get more production runs he may want to think again about making a D-Sub version available.
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by strayan »

Odolwa wrote:Scart has excellent picture quality, but has a weird voltage pin on it that carries the risk of destroying your equipment, and overtime damages your equipment anyway just by being plugged in, like a slow death.
Huh?
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

strayan wrote:
Odolwa wrote:Scart has excellent picture quality, but has a weird voltage pin on it that carries the risk of destroying your equipment, and overtime damages your equipment anyway just by being plugged in, like a slow death.
Huh?
I say that based on the discussion that I had on my previous thread titled "Component vs Scart" found at this link:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68553
Odolwa wrote:When you guys say that people don’t have to worry about voltage with component cables, is it even that big of a deal, since everybody just uses GScartSWs, that 10 port Axun one that does JP21 and scart, or the scart switchers from Otaku Games? Voltage shouldn’t even be a thing that people worry about at all, because the majority of scart switchers that people use now are protected against it anyway.
Guspaz wrote:The gscartsw, as far as I know, and some other SCART switches, does not support TTL sync input. Or at least they're not designed for it and it may cause long-term damage. Even if they can successfully normalize everything via sync-on-green support and sync regeneration, you may be protecting your downstream devices from TTL voltage levels by slowly destroying your SCART switch. And it's not a cheap switch.
Odolwa wrote:So overtime, using scart is killing our switchers and consoles?
eightbitminiboss wrote:No, SCART isn't doing that inherently. It's the TTL sync that is doing it. You'd hit the same problem if you were using a different interconnect, if the receiving part is not spec'd to safely handle the high voltage, the part will fail over time.
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by bobrocks95 »

As much as I prefer my D-Sub setup, you're confusing/conflating a few things.

If you send TTL sync to any device that doesn't expect it, you could damage it, regardless of connector. You can send TTL sync over SCART, you can send it over D-Sub. This is what eightbitminiboss was saying.
Component was mentioned because it should always be using 75 Ohm sync levels rather than TTL.

When you are using RGB with csync you will want to be aware of what voltage levels every device in your chain outputs and accepts. If you don't want to risk a voltage mismatch, or don't want to have to think about it, you can use composite video or luma for sync (both will always be 75 Ohm), or go with a component video (YPbPr) setup.

Extron switches require csync though, and cheap/poorly shielded cables can have quality issues with composite video. So I think it's personally worth using csync and taking the time to learn all the caveats for it.
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matt
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by matt »

Neither DE-15 or SCART connectors are ideal. Both were created for different purposes, neither of which are completely in line with how we use them as gamers. The reason why they exist is that they ended up being the two most widespread connectors for passing an RGB signal and, as such, there's a lot of pre-existing equipment out there that can be repurposed for our needs.
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

bobrocks95 wrote:As much as I prefer my D-Sub setup, you're confusing/conflating a few things.

If you send TTL sync to any device that doesn't expect it, you could damage it, regardless of connector. You can send TTL sync over SCART, you can send it over D-Sub. This is what eightbitminiboss was saying.
Component was mentioned because it should always be using 75 Ohm sync levels rather than TTL.

When you are using RGB with csync you will want to be aware of what voltage levels every device in your chain outputs and accepts. If you don't want to risk a voltage mismatch, or don't want to have to think about it, you can use composite video or luma for sync (both will always be 75 Ohm), or go with a component video (YPbPr) setup.

Extron switches require csync though, and cheap/poorly shielded cables can have quality issues with composite video. So I think it's personally worth using csync and taking the time to learn all the caveats for it.
Is D-Sub/VGA safer than Scart?
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by bobrocks95 »

Odolwa wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:As much as I prefer my D-Sub setup, you're confusing/conflating a few things.

If you send TTL sync to any device that doesn't expect it, you could damage it, regardless of connector. You can send TTL sync over SCART, you can send it over D-Sub. This is what eightbitminiboss was saying.
Component was mentioned because it should always be using 75 Ohm sync levels rather than TTL.

When you are using RGB with csync you will want to be aware of what voltage levels every device in your chain outputs and accepts. If you don't want to risk a voltage mismatch, or don't want to have to think about it, you can use composite video or luma for sync (both will always be 75 Ohm), or go with a component video (YPbPr) setup.

Extron switches require csync though, and cheap/poorly shielded cables can have quality issues with composite video. So I think it's personally worth using csync and taking the time to learn all the caveats for it.
Is D-Sub/VGA safer than Scart?
I think you could make the argument that more D-Sub equipment is going to expect TTL sync input and thus be safer... But in turn if you're connecting it to something like an RT5X or an OSSC through its SCART input (since the VGA input lacks low-pass filtering controls), more D-Sub equipment is going to output TTL sync too...

I guess the problem is really adapting between them and making sure you're attenuating sync lines when you need to.
SCART's going to be easier to have problems with since the connector originally supported so many different standards and connection types. And it rarely comes up, but yes you do have a voltage pin for European TVs to automatically switch inputs and aspect ratio, so that's another potential problem.

I advocate D-Sub because professional-grade switches and cables are available cheaply, while SCART was a consumer standard and it never existed in the US. If I was the type to make my own cables I could easily buy a cheap composite cable (if fully wired on the console end) or video connector for an old system, cut off the connector, and wire it up to a cheap, properly shielded VGA cable, of which I have probably 10+ lying around the house. But I don't think I'd necessarily say it's safer than SCART- people should learn about sync types and voltages regardless before they invest in custom cabling for old consoles.
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

bobrocks95 wrote:
Odolwa wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:As much as I prefer my D-Sub setup, you're confusing/conflating a few things.

If you send TTL sync to any device that doesn't expect it, you could damage it, regardless of connector. You can send TTL sync over SCART, you can send it over D-Sub. This is what eightbitminiboss was saying.
Component was mentioned because it should always be using 75 Ohm sync levels rather than TTL.

When you are using RGB with csync you will want to be aware of what voltage levels every device in your chain outputs and accepts. If you don't want to risk a voltage mismatch, or don't want to have to think about it, you can use composite video or luma for sync (both will always be 75 Ohm), or go with a component video (YPbPr) setup.

Extron switches require csync though, and cheap/poorly shielded cables can have quality issues with composite video. So I think it's personally worth using csync and taking the time to learn all the caveats for it.
Is D-Sub/VGA safer than Scart?
I think you could make the argument that more D-Sub equipment is going to expect TTL sync input and thus be safer... But in turn if you're connecting it to something like an RT5X or an OSSC through its SCART input (since the VGA input lacks low-pass filtering controls), more D-Sub equipment is going to output TTL sync too...

I guess the problem is really adapting between them and making sure you're attenuating sync lines when you need to.
SCART's going to be easier to have problems with since the connector originally supported so many different standards and connection types. And it rarely comes up, but yes you do have a voltage pin for European TVs to automatically switch inputs and aspect ratio, so that's another potential problem.

I advocate D-Sub because professional-grade switches and cables are available cheaply, while SCART was a consumer standard and it never existed in the US. If I was the type to make my own cables I could easily buy a cheap composite cable (if fully wired on the console end) or video connector for an old system, cut off the connector, and wire it up to a cheap, properly shielded VGA cable, of which I have probably 10+ lying around the house. But I don't think I'd necessarily say it's safer than SCART- people should learn about sync types and voltages regardless before they invest in custom cabling for old consoles.
Why do EposVox and Voultar dislike Scart so much? I thought it was because of the chance that Scart can damage equipment, and that the potential for damage doesn't exist in RCA or VGA.
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by matt »

The problem with SCART isn't the cables themselves, it's because the standard was invented as a method of adding teletext overlays to European composite video. That's why it has weird requirements like low voltage sync, blanking voltage, and directional AV pins. Basically, the sync signal on a SCART cable has to be compatible with the composite video input on a consumer TV.

All that means is that SCART compatible equipment (TVs, scalers, etc) can be damaged by RGB signals meant for computer monitors. However, using SCART cables to pass RGB to non-SCART devices doesn't have much inherent risk.
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

One time a Scart cable caused my SNES to blow a fuse. I’m of the idea that VGA isn’t capable of doing something like that. Is that correct?
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by matt »

That's possible - the SCART standard requires a blanking voltage which usually is drawn from the +5v out on a console's AV port. If there's a short in the cable or in your equipment, it could indeed blow a fuse.
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

matt wrote:That's possible - the SCART standard requires a blanking voltage which usually is drawn from the +5v out on a console's AV port. If there's a short in the cable or in your equipment, it could indeed blow a fuse.
Could that happen with VGA or any other connector type?
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

What do you guys consider to be the main advantage of D-Sub 15-Pin VGA over Scart and Component? Why is this the best connector and best option?
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by SavagePencil »

give it a rest, dude
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by SavagePencil »

also just saying that it is a HELL OF A COINCIDENCE that XSync-1's last post was exactly 3 minutes before Odolwa signed up.

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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by bobrocks95 »

SavagePencil wrote:also just saying that it is a HELL OF A COINCIDENCE that XSync-1's last post was exactly 3 minutes before Odolwa signed up.

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=21820

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How could I have missed such a legendary thread?
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by kitty666cats »

The mind-killer 'obsessively worrying about having the OPTIMAL setup & LOWEST lag' phenomenon *dwarfing* the act of 'actually sitting down and ever playing our silly 90s video games' is running rampant these days, lol.

...not that I or most of us in Hardware haven't been there, to some degree (though I moreso just have a morbid curiousity about weird old video gear, heh)
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Odolwa
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by Odolwa »

SavagePencil wrote:also just saying that it is a HELL OF A COINCIDENCE that XSync-1's last post was exactly 3 minutes before Odolwa signed up.

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=21820

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What are you talking about?
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Re: D-Sub 15-Pin vs Component and Scart

Post by AaronSR »

Hi, sorry to bump this thread but theres very little info on these cables. Just wondering what RGB mods do you have for NES and N64? I'm hoping to get the same cables, is it just the Tim Worthington boards for both consoles?

Also I noticed they have separate listings for PS1/2, curious if there's a difference - I know for scart the PS1 it needed the scart cable with 200uF capacitors whereas PS2 had them in the console itself so I guess its the same for dsub. Also for PS2, The Getaway (PAL) has a "weird" 480p mode that requires sync on green scart and doesn't work with ypbpr (the screen will be purple), since this cable works in both RGB and Component modes from what I'm reading, I would assume it would work. I guess maybe that's why they removed 480p from all other versions of the game.

Oh also I'm assuming games that switch between 240p/480i work depending on the device its hooked up to (CRT/Retrotink5x etc.)
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