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 Post subject: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240p
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:43 pm 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
Ok. I wanted to get a new 8k monitor, because I'm a sucker for technology. But then I was bummed out to see, "8k televisions aren't real 8k, but 4k upscaled with pentile technology!"

So I read about what was going on here:

https://www.displaydaily.com/article/di ... -continued


I went to myself "Hey I can do this with a 4k monitor and my lowly 2014 MacBook Air using shade code!" (Technically not "free" but practically any computer can do this real time.)

Thoughts?

Here's the official pentile:

Image

Here's a single pixel at 4k:

Image

Here's a 896x735 (For some reason 3x doesn't work, it needs a minimum of 3.0625x or you get moire **shrug**):

Image

no shader:

Image

Here's 2160p:

pentile:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:05 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1669
Don't think I follow exactly what you're doing here, but I am intrigued.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:43 pm 



Joined: 12 Sep 2012
Posts: 173
Yeah I don't follow either.
Either you're misleading with your title, or you didn't understand the article the right way.
What I understand is that on their 8k display, Samsung is using some kind of image processing to increase viewing angle, and the side effect of it is that you should lose some detail of a 8k source. But the actual true resolution of the panel is still 8k.

What you are doing is just a "pentile-display-lookalike-shader". You can't get a 8k on a 4k display for free.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:06 pm 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
fernan1234 wrote:
Don't think I follow exactly what you're doing here, but I am intrigued.


Samsung et al, when doing "8k" televisions are really just doing pentile (ie penta is 5).

I'm doing via hardware acceleration in software using shader code, what Samsung is doing with the actual PHYSICAL pixel format.

If you look at the pentile gif vs the RGB gif in my OP, each subpixel is staggered, and an added pure white pixel that's always on.

3 RGB subpixels are replaced with 16 RGBW subpixel tiling.

Here's what Samsung's 8k pentatile looks like for instance.

While mine isn't exactly the same, it's very similar, and in some ways superior.

To do the same as a Samsung 8k, I need 9x to achieve something similar. Meaning the max is 240p for best results, and up to 720p for "acceptable" using any plain RGB 4k display.

Pretty much I'm doing a software implementation of Samsung's 8k, but achieving 240p upscaling.

That means I can get some cheap 32 inch 4k PC monitor for ~$350 instead of $3,250, and have the equivalent of a 27" 4:3 monitor that upscales and doesn't look overly digital, and somwhat "analog" with my flavor of "pentile".

Here's NEOGEO at 1016x762 (I know, a weird resolution but that again is the lowest for 224p which NEOGEO uses at 320x224, I think because the horizontal needs to be 3x to work.)

Image

Here's at 2160p:

Image

For reference here's AANN which is essentially how a NEOGEO would look upscaled to a LCD monitor from say a SuperGun: (Yes I realize the "pentile" ones are DARKER because of the pentilization process, which I assume on a real 8k pentile monitor Samsung compensates for that automatically. Therefor you'd need to brighten your image on the LCD's controls.)

Image

Lastly, here's what Samsung's 4k to 8k looks like with their implementation of pentiles.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:17 pm 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
Joelepain wrote:
Yeah I don't follow either.
Either you're misleading with your title, or you didn't understand the article the right way.
What I understand is that on their 8k display, Samsung is using some kind of image processing to increase viewing angle, and the side effect of it is that you should lose some detail of a 8k source. But the actual true resolution of the panel is still 8k.

What you are doing is just a "pentile-display-lookalike-shader". You can't get a 8k on a 4k display for free.


AFAIK, the only way to get this type of upscaling with pentile, is to get an 8k display. So if all you're worried about is 240p to 720p, my shader will get the same exact effect, with the added bonus that you can tweak it to your absolute delight. Unlike on the $3,250 Samsung 32" 8k.

I put 240p in the title. I was going to put more, ie (for 240p to 720p sources with the same effect.) But I couldn't.

So I tried explaining in the OP exactly what I was doing.

I even showed pictures.

How is what I'm doing any more misleading that what Samsung is doing? All Samsungs 8k can only do "8k" in game mode, which introduces artifact because it uses compression of what's really a "4k" image, and the AI engine INTERPOLATES the rest to "8k".

From the article:

Samsung's 8K 'QLED' LCD TVs can't display 8K resolution (unless in Game mode), and its 2019 high-end 4K TVs can't display 4K resolution (unless in Game mode). It's a significant limitation that seems to have drowned in all of the 'noise' surrounding 8K TVs.

When did i ever show an 8k picture? They all say 2160p (4k).


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:24 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1669
OK I think I get it more now, you took inspiration from the pentile thing to create a filter applied to 240p upscaled to 4k. You can do the same thing upscaling to 4k and using any of the CRT-like filters available on libretro/Retroarch, for example. Nothing really to do with 8K other than where you got the idea for the filter design. But it's a neat filter, having the effect of something like an old low resolution LCD more than a CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:32 pm 



Joined: 12 Sep 2012
Posts: 173
That's exactly what I said. Your title is misleading.

I have nothing against shaders and filters (I use them myself with retroarch), but jumping from that to "Turning a gaming 4k monitor into 8k pentil for free" is a little farfetched.

And adding 240p in your title is not enough, still kind of clickbait for me.
But really no animosity in my posts. I just wanted to clarify because your first post wasn't that clear and make people think you didn't understand the original article.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:19 am 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
Someone in another thread was talking about EspGaluga in another thread. I hadn't played it in a while, so thought why not.

Then I decided to apply my shader at 8k.

The results make me in awe of just how many 8k pixels are. It took forever for me to render at that resolution. I was getting less than 1 fps!

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:24 am 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 317
Location: The Netherlands
Quick recap: you made a shader.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:52 pm 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
spmbx wrote:
Quick recap: you made a shader.


Quick recap: You're disappointed this isn't a hardware solution, because you have access to a several billion dollar mother glass fab? Cool.

I might be reading wrong, but you seem to imply "this is ONLY a shader." As in you could make one better? If so, I'd be glad to see what your shader does, and I'll be sure to fairly critique it.

This recap now make things clear? Thanks for your interest!

While in the rest of the worlds not in the billionaire class....

I used to be in the "CRT or bust" for shaders or using an actual hardware CRT.

The CRT gets old because I'm getting old, and last time I moved a 34" CRT I nearly threw out my back, and my thumbs took a month to heal from the grip.

Onto why I now consider myself converted from CRT like even.

Here's what I liked best, Kurozumi. But that needs this pesky thing called "integer scaling" why they don't call it "vertical multiple scaling" is beyond me.

Image

But what if you want to do the full height on an XGA? Ugh! Not pretty!

Image

While mine will do any 3x+ just fine.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:19 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1669
spmbx most likely meant that this is just a shader and really nothing to do with "turning 4k monitor into 8k" like the title strangely suggests.

Another recap could be: topic title makes no sense, but here's a neat shader for your PC emulated games.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:27 pm 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
fernan1234 wrote:
spmbx most likely meant that this is just a shader and really nothing to do with "turning 4k monitor into 8k" like the title strangely suggests.

Another recap could be: topic title makes no sense, but here's a neat shader for your PC emulated games.


Already said in another post, "I put 240p in the title. I was going to put more, ie (for 240p to 720p sources with the same effect.) But I couldn't."

Maybe I should clarify that this forum has a title limit. By the time I posted, I didn't realize after quickly typing that the rest of the title I wanted was cut off. But by then I tried to edit the post and I could only edit the post not the title!

You're now the 5th post about this. Congrats!

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:06 pm 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 317
Location: The Netherlands
fernan1234 wrote:
spmbx most likely meant that this is just a shader and really nothing to do with "turning 4k monitor into 8k" like the title strangely suggests.

Another recap could be: topic title makes no sense, but here's a neat shader for your PC emulated games.


Bingo. It doesn't help that it seems to be completely impossible to have any reasonable discussion with him so i won't bother. He either refuses or just doesn't get it. All the empty lines are getting on my tits too. Nice shader, too bad about the attitude. Good luck with the topic dude.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 10:43 pm 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
spmbx wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
spmbx most likely meant that this is just a shader and really nothing to do with "turning 4k monitor into 8k" like the title strangely suggests.

Another recap could be: topic title makes no sense, but here's a neat shader for your PC emulated games.


Bingo. It doesn't help that it seems to be completely impossible to have any reasonable discussion with him so i won't bother. He either refuses or just doesn't get it. All the empty lines are getting on my tits too. Nice shader, too bad about the attitude. Good luck with the topic dude.


#6.

What else do I need to do? I've explained many times what happened, #6.

Cause I don't want the 4chan autist police after me. I'd appreciate what you want?

Since I thought I answered what went on, anymore replies mean you want more examples of what this can do.

Ok I give in! Here's what PSX looks like for 480i to 768p! Enjoy!

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:44 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1669
Now thinking this was some elaborate troll/joke topic for TC's own amusement, given his replies and, looking again and more carefully, the fact that the shader actually doesn't even look very good.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:52 pm 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
fernan1234 wrote:
Now thinking this was some elaborate troll/joke topic for TC's own amusement, given his replies and, looking again and more carefully, the fact that the shader actually doesn't even look very good.


This is why I was hesitant to release the source, and definitely not going to now. I can just imagine the hate mail I'd get. Thank you for proving why there's so few shader choices out there. Because people don't want to deal with people like you.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:10 am 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 1669
buddha2525 wrote:
This is why I was hesitant to release the source, and definitely not going to now. I can just imagine the hate mail I'd get. Thank you for proving why there's so few shader choices out there. Because people don't want to deal with people like you.


I don't think you would get any hate mail, rather people simply wouldn't use your shader.

Usually when someone releases or previews a shader, they are ready to receive any kind of opinion about it (and the way it is characterized), favorable or not. But if that's not the case with you then yeah, it's best to keep it to yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:00 am 



Joined: 15 Nov 2018
Posts: 33
I've been watchin' the thread quietly until this point, but felt the time was right to jump in. Y'all really need to ease up off the guy. You found the title confusing, he gave an honest explanation, move on.

spmbx wrote:
It doesn't help that it seems to be completely impossible to have any reasonable discussion with him so i won't bother. He either refuses or just doesn't get it. All the empty lines are getting on my tits too. Nice shader, too bad about the attitude. Good luck with the topic dude.

Honestly, your attitude is much worse. We get it, you don't like the title. The snarky one-liner was unnecessary. He did something constructive and made a good faith effort to explain how he came up with the idea. Relax.

Anyway, cool shader. I can understand if you don't want to post it, but, assuming it's just a RetroArch slang file or something else easy to use, I wouldn't mind adding it to my collection. Keep it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:40 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 544
I’ve been hoping someone would create some shaders to emulate different screen matrixes.

Fun exercise!


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:49 am 



Joined: 24 Mar 2018
Posts: 33
buddha2525 wrote:
Image
Image

Here's 2160p:

pentile:

Image


Off topic but just wanted to ask what game is this


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:36 am 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
DemoNight wrote:

Off topic but just wanted to ask what game is this


TurboGrafx-16 version of Cadash.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:51 am 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
strayan wrote:
I’ve been hoping someone would create some shaders to emulate different screen matrixes.

Fun exercise!



Yeah thanks. I'm just your average guy, who tinkers in retro-gaming.


dojima wrote:

Anyway, cool shader. I can understand if you don't want to post it, but, assuming it's just a RetroArch slang file or something else easy to use, I wouldn't mind adding it to my collection. Keep it up.


I don't know. I'm kinda peeved at this whole situation.

Yeah right now it's in Slangp format.

I got a buddy who's making some emulators using quark. He said he'd de-GPL the code and make it easier to understand. I test stuff out for him. He and his buddy are the ones who helped me. 2 of the three are heavily modded free source, while the 3rd is GPL. That's another reason, I'd rather be able to release my source with no conditions. The GPL portion means I have to infect my code and modifications, as if it were the original GPL! :shock:

Right now it's rather complex and you need to configure it for each resolution.

Like TG-16 is 320/256x240 and needs a different shader than for NES which is 256x224. But NeoGeo is 320x224, so different still.

For me it takes only like 2 or 3 minutes to reconfigure the parameters on the fly. For you it might be rather convoluted.

Maybe in the future then, I'd reconsider. Possibly by then it should be even better.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:38 am 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 317
Location: The Netherlands
Since this keeps popping up, either point to the HARDWARE in this or move it to the correct freaking forum category.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:54 am 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
spmbx wrote:
Since this keeps popping up, either point to the HARDWARE in this or move it to the correct freaking forum category.


Are all people so hateful in the Netherlands? SMH! The correct forum you say? Maybe you should be a mod and move all these to the "correct freaking forum category" too?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51298

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56918

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57920

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61145

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62024

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45026&start=480

viewtopic.php?t=60528

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51298&p=1135007&hilit=shader+thread


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:05 am 



Joined: 15 Nov 2018
Posts: 33
buddha2525 wrote:
Yeah right now it's in Slangp format.

I got a buddy who's making some emulators using quark. He said he'd de-GPL the code and make it easier to understand. I test stuff out for him. He and his buddy are the ones who helped me. 2 of the three are heavily modded free source, while the 3rd is GPL. That's another reason, I'd rather be able to release my source with no conditions. The GPL portion means I have to infect my code and modifications, as if it were the original GPL! :shock:

Right now it's rather complex and you need to configure it for each resolution.

Like TG-16 is 320/256x240 and needs a different shader than for NES which is 256x224. But NeoGeo is 320x224, so different still.

For me it takes only like 2 or 3 minutes to reconfigure the parameters on the fly. For you it might be rather convoluted.

Maybe in the future then, I'd reconsider. Possibly by then it should be even better.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I know nearly nothing about coding, so it'd likely be beyond me, but I'll keep an eye on this thread for any developments. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:20 am 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 317
Location: The Netherlands
buddha2525 wrote:
spmbx wrote:
Since this keeps popping up, either point to the HARDWARE in this or move it to the correct freaking forum category.


Are all people so hateful in the Netherlands? SMH! The correct forum you say? Maybe you should be a mod and move all these to the "correct freaking forum category" too?

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51298

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56918

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57920

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=61145

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62024

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45026&start=480

viewtopic.php?t=60528

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51298&p=1135007&hilit=shader+thread




Image


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:49 am 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
I've been busy with my shader. It now works flawlessly using scanlines too at 1080p!

Can I get a cowabunga?

Image


spmbx wrote:
Image


Turtle power!


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:26 pm 



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 199
Location: UK
That looks good. Please carry on. Sorry, I mean COWABUNGA!
_________________
Don't bomb. DON'T BOMB.
Damn! Should have bombed.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:57 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 544
buddha2525 wrote:
I've been busy with my shader. It now works flawlessly using scanlines too at 1080p!


Surely this has to be the most sensible and least resource intensive way of emulating a crt tube using an external scaler.


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 Post subject: Re: Turn a gaming 4k monitor into a 8k pentile for free! 240
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:48 am 



Joined: 08 Jun 2021
Posts: 21
strayan wrote:

Surely this has to be the most sensible and least resource intensive way of emulating a crt tube using an external scaler.


I'm going to look into that. I spent last night about 7 hours coding new stuff.

The problem before was certain colors would get banding, or certain colors wouldn't show scanlines since they happen blend out to a solid color.

The new features I've added:

Scanlines at 1080p for 256 or 320 by 224p sources now align where the gap is over 99.97% accurate.

Color and gamma corrected per pixel to take into account scanlines without darkening the image based on how the eye sees these changes.

Temporal changes of the scanline to improve movent beyond what the display is capable using some special tricks I've developed.

All scanlines now properly show from the pluge pattern to 100 IRE white field.

The characteristics of an actual phosphor are taken into account.

-----------

Currently I'm searching for a HLSL/GLSL coder to improve what I have. Possibly by optimizing my code, fixing any errors I didn't think of, and cleaning up code with proper explanations/comments.

So if you or anyone else you know, or other people reading this thread know of someone with enough talent; please let me know.


stuntman wrote:
That looks good. Please carry on. Sorry, I mean COWABUNGA!


Thanks!


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