Saturn + OSSC = anything above 2x is dark

[aphexacid]

I got an OSSC about a month ago because in bought a new oled tv, it’s only got hdmi ports of course. I also bought a scart cable from RGC, and loaded the ossc with firebrandX’s profiles.

So basically what I’m seeing here is 480p @ 2x. And then you go to 4x and everything gets darker. Like the brightness gets turned down. Switched back to 2x and it looks normal again. What’s the deal? It’s not the tv, tried it on an LED tv as well.

Any help is appreciated. Tried googling but what I’m talking about doesn’t come up.

I don’t know what half the shit in the settings does. And sometimes you touch one thing and the picture disappears into the abyss until you figure out how to put it back. So frustrating.

I almost just want to get a retrotink 2x and connect it with my mclassic.

[Guspaz]

Have you tried a factory reset on the OSSC? Have you verified that the TV's brightness setting is the same on the different resolutions? TVs may remember different settings for different resolutions.

[Harrumph]

It may also be a full vs limited range issue. OSSC is full range output always.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

It may also be a full vs limited range issue. OSSC is full range output always.

What, what? Isn't limited range optimal for consumer television sets and full range for computer monitors? Here is article from 2017 saying as such. Sorry lots of ads: https://www.howtogeek.com/295569/should ... n-or-xbox/

Are you using American Saturn to American television? I'm importing Japanese Saturn and SFC in August and can't test until then. NTSC American consoles mostly use 7.5 IRE as black whereas Japanese NTSC use 0 IRE and therefore Japanese console on Japanese television has better black to white contrast. Becomes black crush issue using Japanese console on US television that treats 0 to 7.5 IRE as same shade of black.

As for OSSC being the source of the excess darkness, which it probably is, can you try Rec. 601 vs Rec. 709 on it? Try limited and full range options on television. Basically try every combination of color space setting for best result. See if HDMI to computer monitor looks good that would accurately support full range RGB. I like Guspaz's idea to try different resolutions.

I just use an early 40" LCD television that takes analog inputs and HDMI even if 240p/480i interlacing loses scanlines. Endless amounts for $50-100 at Goodwill and no need for upscaler. Not all support 1080p though.

[Konsolkongen]

The OSSC can output in limited range. Output opt. > TX mode > HDMI(YCbCr444). The default is full range.

I don't know the FBX profiles. Are you using different profiles for 2x and 4x? If you are check that Video in proc > Pre-ADC Gain is set the same for both profiles. This can brighten or darken the image. I find this usefull to bump up a bit when using all black scanlines

It could also be your TV that stores different settings for different resolutions. I've had TVs in the past that had separate settings for 480p and others for 720p/1080p on the same input.

How does 3x look?

OP check out the Wiki for an explanation of all the settings:
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC

Are you using American Saturn to American television? I'm importing Japanese Saturn and SFC in August and can't test until then. NTSC American consoles mostly use 7.5 IRE as black whereas Japanese NTSC use 0 IRE and therefore Japanese console on Japanese television has better black to white contrast. Becomes black crush issue using Japanese console on US television that treats 0 to 7.5 IRE as same shade of black.

Is this true for Sega Saturn as well? I've only seen this mentioned regarding PS2 consoles :O

[orange808]

The first and most likely suspect is your display. LG is the brand to get right now.

[aphexacid]

The OSSC can output in limited range. Output opt. > TX mode > HDMI(YCbCr444). The default is full range.

I don't know the FBX profiles. Are you using different profiles for 2x and 4x? If you are check that Video in proc > Pre-ADC Gain is set the same for both profiles. This can brighten or darken the image. I find this usefull to bump up a bit when using all black scanlines

It could also be your TV that stores different settings for different resolutions. I've had TVs in the past that had separate settings for 480p and others for 720p/1080p on the same input.

How does 3x look?

OP check out the Wiki for an explanation of all the settings:
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC

Are you using American Saturn to American television? I'm importing Japanese Saturn and SFC in August and can't test until then. NTSC American consoles mostly use 7.5 IRE as black whereas Japanese NTSC use 0 IRE and therefore Japanese console on Japanese television has better black to white contrast. Becomes black crush issue using Japanese console on US television that treats 0 to 7.5 IRE as same shade of black.

Is this true for Sega Saturn as well? I've only seen this mentioned regarding PS2 consoles :O

Good suggestions. Didn’t think of the tv maybe switching some setting. I’ll check the ossc settings mentioned here as well. It’s an LG CX in case anyone is familiar with any weird things it might be doing behind the scenes.

Will report back, thank you everyone.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

Are you using American Saturn to American television? I'm importing Japanese Saturn and SFC in August and can't test until then. NTSC American consoles mostly use 7.5 IRE as black whereas Japanese NTSC use 0 IRE and therefore Japanese console on Japanese television has better black to white contrast. Becomes black crush issue using Japanese console on US television that treats 0 to 7.5 IRE as same shade of black.

Is this true for Sega Saturn as well? I've only seen this mentioned regarding PS2 consoles :O

You know what, info about IRE is all over the place. Let's call North American IRE standard NTSC-U and Japan IRE standard NTSC-J.
I read one comment that said NTSC-U PS1 is IRE 0 like Japan and all other US consoles are IRE 7.5. Is a claim about Dreamcast IRE being game dependent since games are developed on computer monitors with IRE 0 and developers didn't always adjust to IRE 7.5. Limited vs Full Color not same thing either.

--------------------------------

-Claim that Japanese PS1 SCPH-XXX3 models use IRE 7.5 like NTSC-U at http://www.psxdev.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5&start=40
-Claim Famicom is IRE 7.5 since Japan didn't switch to IRE 0 until 1985: https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?t=16376
-Educated IRE comment that mentions OSSC from an analog video pro in the MLinG review of RetroTINK-2X Pro & Koryuu: https://ibb.co/mSSqtDj
Says to use
-Thorough shmups discussion with Speedy posting pictures near the end: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=66126

--------------------------------

Figured I'd contribute actual videos since I have a PVM L2 that allows IRE switching. Has separate [Composite+S-Video] and [Component] IRE settings and can only switch a setting while giving that video input. Component has a third setting labeled SMPTE. Thankfully RGB is immune from this mess. I used American games, 2-Chip American SNES and late fat model American PS2 that doesn't have the i.Link port. Couldn't input just the Y from S-Video since I lack an S-Video coupler.

[S-Video SNES] Vegas Stakes clearly has more detail in bottom quarter of screen with IRE 0 versus IRE 7.5: https://youtu.be/HjTnwJdDwHs
[S-Video SNES] Ogre Battle seems identical between IRE 0 and IRE 7.5: https://youtu.be/_HxTs1XbaFA
[240p YPbPr PS2] Ogre Battle seems to have a little more detail and brightness with IRE 0 and SMPTE looks bad: https://youtu.be/SRfKjAV5FUI
[240p Y only PS2] Ogre Battle brightness seems to change slightly between modes but I can't really describe how: https://youtu.be/Uc-PbrYVRps

--------------------------------

I believe based on video that SNES and PS2 NTSC-U are IRE 7.5. Changing to 0 IRE means PVM outputs true black only at 0 mV instead of 53.57 mV, meaning the previously true and very dark blacks are now brighter. Based on other comments and pictures, difference should be more dramatic switching to IRE 0 if console really were using that.

Also, Wikipedia NTSC-J article mentions PAL is 0 IRE / 0 mV for true black like Japan and NTSC-J uses white color temperature of 9300K instead of NTSC-U value of 6500K. I think PVM can adjust that too.

[Konsolkongen]

Good suggestions. Didn’t think of the tv maybe switching some setting. I’ll check the ossc settings mentioned here as well. It’s an LG CX in case anyone is familiar with any weird things it might be doing behind the scenes.

Will report back, thank you everyone.

I too use an LG CX, so it shouldn't be a problem with your TV.


EDIT:
NewSchoolBoxer>
Thank you for the links. I will give them a look another day when I have more time

[Gara]

Are you checking your LG picture settings each time you do a resolution switch? It could be sensing the resolution change and either switching to a different profile or switching to Game, but with default settings or previously edited settings.

The LG has a complex system in place where it'll remember picture settings for devices/resolutions. It can make initial setup a bit awkward for each mode (2x, 3x, 4x, 5x) and the resolution changes, but it'll remember it for next time once you set each one.

If it isn't already on, you can also try enabling PC mode of the HDMI port you have the OSSC plugged into by renaming it to PC. . That'll let you set shadows to high and get proper support for full range color. That really shouldn't be causing a darker image on resolution changes though.

Anyways, it's just a guess on my part. You really shouldn't be having any problems with the LG OLED and the OSSC. Those two are a premium combo that many of us share. My own is the C9 model. I'm super envious of CX+ owners being able to display 1440p modes with MiSTer and the Retrotink 5x.

Edit: you should also try those same modes on the OSSC with default generic 4:3 settings rather than FBX profiles. Some of those profiles dont work right for me in some modes.

[aphexacid]

I fiddled around with it for a while last night. Here is what I’ve found.
First let me list exactly what I’m using. A Japanese sega Saturn, with a retro gaming cables scart cable. Also tried an insurrection scart cable, same results.

My ossc is an official VGP unit and I loaded FBX profiles for Saturn and Dreamcast. The rest of the profiles are default/generic.

I started with Street Fighter zero 3, put the game in training mode and let it sit.

So with a default profile, 2x shows up as 480p on the tv, and I checked through all settings on the tv for anything funny. Everything looked fine.
I then switched to 3x. My tv reports hat as 720P. Tv shows the same settings as before. But for some reason it looks like someone jacked up the sharpness too high. It’s also a bit brighter.

Moving on to 4x, my tv reports 960p. But now the tv switched to a different picture profile! So I switched it to match like before , but now I find that some settings within the profile are greyed out on the noise reduction page. Everything pretty much looks like 2x.

Now onto 5X. My tv reports 1080p and no picture settings on the tv changed. Everything looks like 2x and 4x. But now the picture has been stretched a bit on the sides. I don’t know how to change this. The aspect ratio settings on my tv won’t get it right. If anyone knows how to fix the aspect ratio, please let me know.

So I think the FBX profiles were doing something funky. But 3x is definitely a bit brighter even using default profile on ossc. Also, I didn’t not change any settings within the profile of ossc. Just default, and I switched between 2-5-x.

One thing of interest, my tv sometimes won’t switch to 4x(960p). You have to flip it back and forth sometimes before it catches. Strange.

And I also found out today that seems like there are some games that want to display menus in 480i. RSG and shienryu are 2 I just noticed.

Thank you all for the input. Glad that the problem is somewhat solved with using generic ossc profile. I would just really like to figure out how to get 5x in 4:3 aspect.

As an aside, 2x ossc plus an mclassic is nothing short of wonderful! After 2x though, shit goes mental.

[Gara]

Glad to hear you're making some progress. Is your OSSC directly plugged into your TV?

Are you using the Game picture profile on your LG OLED for all this? Sharpness at 0 (default is 10) along with pretty much all picture processing off? Game mode grays out most of those settings. 960p is usually treated as a PC resolution and even more picture processing options will be disabled.

As for 5x, is your 5x mode set for 1920x1080 on the OSSC? You could try the other two 5x settings (1600x1200, 1920x1200) and see if either is more pleasing.

I'm guessing the 4:3 aspect ratio option on your CX isn't getting the right look for you? You can try going to
Settings>All Settings>Picture>Aspect Ratio Settings>All-Direction Zoom
That'll bring up some controls you can use to dial in your aspect ratio. It's too bad they didn't allow more freedom in this mode, but it's still better than any TV I've had previously. You're a model ahead of me so the location of the settings may be different.


I personally just stick to the default OSSC settings most of the time and use generic 4:3 in 3x or 5x mode. Sampling phase is definitely one setting I can't ignore though. The FBX profiles are great, but my TV doesn't always like them and I'm not always in the mood to get everything dialed in. Having a Retrotink 5x in my setup has made me especially lazy with its minimalist settings.

Edit: you could also try changing your Logo Luminance Adjustment setting. It can be really aggressive at times and it maybe explains your brightness lose. For me it's under
Settings>All settings>Picture>Additional Settings>OLED Panel Settings>Logo Luminance Adjustment

[aphexacid]

Glad to hear you're making some progress. Is your OSSC directly plugged into your TV?

Are you using the Game picture profile on your LG OLED for all this? Sharpness at 0 (default is 10) along with pretty much all picture processing off? Game mode grays out most of those settings. 960p is usually treated as a PC resolution and even more picture processing options will be disabled.

As for 5x, is your 5x mode set for 1920x1080 on the OSSC? You could try the other two 5x settings (1600x1200, 1920x1200) and see if either is more pleasing.

I'm guessing the 4:3 aspect ratio option on your CX isn't getting the right look for you? You can try going to
Settings>All Settings>Picture>Aspect Ratio Settings>All-Direction Zoom
That'll bring up some controls you can use to dial in your aspect ratio. It's too bad they didn't allow more freedom in this mode, but it's still better than any TV I've had previously. You're a model ahead of me so the location of the settings may be different.


I personally just stick to the default OSSC settings most of the time and use generic 4:3 in 3x or 5x mode. Sampling phase is definitely one setting I can't ignore though. The FBX profiles are great, but my TV doesn't always like them and I'm not always in the mood to get everything dialed in. Having a Retrotink 5x in my setup has made me especially lazy with its minimalist settings.

Edit: you could also try changing your Logo Luminance Adjustment setting. It can be really aggressive at times and it maybe explains your brightness lose. For me it's under
Settings>All settings>Picture>Additional Settings>OLED Panel Settings>Logo Luminance Adjustment

Thanks for your reply! When in 5x, the aspect ratio setting for 4:3 makes the image skinny. Original is the closest thing to 4:3. I didn’t know I can manually adjust it, I’ll give that a shot next time. I’m not a fan of tinkering in settings a whole lot.
Can I tune the aspect ratio within the ossc at all?

I’ll definitely be getting the retrotink 5x as soon as it’s available. Seems easier to work with the plug n play folks. For now the ossc is way better than the levelhike hdmi adapter I was using for Saturn.

As for logo luminesces, I have notice it does this. I noticed it right away when I bought the tv while playing my PS4. Is it a good idea to mess with these settings? Log, pixel refresher etc?

[Harrumph]

Can I tune the aspect ratio within the ossc at all?

Yes, in generic mode you can reduce h.samplerate to 1950. By default it uses 2046, same as 256 optimised mode Lx5 (341x6), I think for compatibility reasons (to give more commonly accepted total pixel clock perhaps? I never had such a sensitive display tbh).
Multiple of 390 is what you want for square pixel output (390x5 = 1950). You can see it matches with the Lx3 & Lx4 generic modes.

[Gara]

Thanks for your reply! When in 5x, the aspect ratio setting for 4:3 makes the image skinny. Original is the closest thing to 4:3. I didn’t know I can manually adjust it, I’ll give that a shot next time. I’m not a fan of tinkering in settings a whole lot.
Can I tune the aspect ratio within the ossc at all?

I’ll definitely be getting the retrotink 5x as soon as it’s available. Seems easier to work with the plug n play folks. For now the ossc is way better than the levelhike hdmi adapter I was using for Saturn.

As for logo luminesces, I have notice it does this. I noticed it right away when I bought the tv while playing my PS4. Is it a good idea to mess with these settings? Log, pixel refresher etc?

The All Direction Zoom is pretty easy to use. It should help with getting the look you're after. You can see each adjustment in real time. I don't remember all the settings, but you should be able to fine tune it with the OSSC as well.

A Retrotink 5x would be great in your setup. The CX from what I understand can display its 6x 1440p mode.

It's hard to say how much of a difference the Logo Luminance adjustment makes. I personally keep mine on low most of the time. I mix up my content enough to avoid burn in. I also let the Pixel refresher do its own automatic thing. Running it manually isn't something I've ever needed to do. Pixel shifter is also fine, I don't notice it while on. It'll probably be a few years until we see how these TV's hold up.

As a random tip, you can use the microphone function on the controller to "turn the screen off". This keeps the sound on and turns the display off. It'll keep it in a standby mode and wake instantly with any button press. Useful for retro games if you need to step away. They may have made this easier on the CX. I wish it had a devoted button on my remote.

[Konsolkongen]

For what it’s worth I have disabled logo luminance adjustment on my CX as I find it incredibly annoying. I’ve had no issues with image retention at all, but of course YMMV

If I remember correctly turning it off does not even disable it completely. It just reduces it to the levels of the older OLEDs like the C7 which does not have the option to adjust the logo luminance.
As far as I know you can disable it completely on the CX but it requires turning it off in the service menu. That is probably a very bad idea though.

[energizerfellow‌]

I fiddled around with it for a while last night. Here is what I’ve found.
First let me list exactly what I’m using. A Japanese sega Saturn, with a retro gaming cables scart cable. Also tried an insurrection scart cable, same results.

My ossc is an official VGP unit and I loaded FBX profiles for Saturn and Dreamcast. The rest of the profiles are default/generic.

I started with Street Fighter zero 3, put the game in training mode and let it sit.

So with a default profile, 2x shows up as 480p on the tv, and I checked through all settings on the tv for anything funny. Everything looked fine.
I then switched to 3x. My tv reports hat as 720P. Tv shows the same settings as before. But for some reason it looks like someone jacked up the sharpness too high. It’s also a bit brighter.

Moving on to 4x, my tv reports 960p. But now the tv switched to a different picture profile! So I switched it to match like before , but now I find that some settings within the profile are greyed out on the noise reduction page. Everything pretty much looks like 2x.

Now onto 5X. My tv reports 1080p and no picture settings on the tv changed. Everything looks like 2x and 4x. But now the picture has been stretched a bit on the sides. I don’t know how to change this. The aspect ratio settings on my tv won’t get it right. If anyone knows how to fix the aspect ratio, please let me know.

So I think the FBX profiles were doing something funky. But 3x is definitely a bit brighter even using default profile on ossc. Also, I didn’t not change any settings within the profile of ossc. Just default, and I switched between 2-5-x.

One thing of interest, my tv sometimes won’t switch to 4x(960p). You have to flip it back and forth sometimes before it catches. Strange.

And I also found out today that seems like there are some games that want to display menus in 480i. RSG and shienryu are 2 I just noticed.

Thank you all for the input. Glad that the problem is somewhat solved with using generic ossc profile. I would just really like to figure out how to get 5x in 4:3 aspect.

Part of what may be happening is the TV switching between BT.601, BT.709, and sRGB video handling depending on the input resolution. If the incoming resolution matches a "real" SD/ED/HD TV resolution you'll get BT.601, BT.709, or BT.2100 handling, depending on resolution, with anything else probably treated as PC-style sRGB. The RetroTINK may or may not be embedding the correct color info metadata over HDMI and even if it was correct, the TV may or may not be honoring said color metadata. This means you might be swapping between not only different color spaces, but also different gamma curves, depending on input resolution.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to stop this behavior on LG TVs. I know on older Panasonics you'll at least get consistent color handling across resolutions if you set the input's name to "PC", but then it assumes everything is PC-style sRGB with 2.2 gamma, as the name would imply.

[Konsolkongen]

He is using an OSSC not a RetroTink

The LG TV should use the correct colorspace automatically. At least I can't say that I've ever had any issues with this on my CX, but there could be strange region differences.
There is a button combination you can press in the menu to manually force different colorspace settings, but it should just be left on Auto anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq_hh0rOArk

OP: These are basically the settings I use on my CX:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gisqN_UL1CM

Just disregard any HDR settings and use regular Game Mode instead.