MISTer 15kHz and controllers questions

[Issac Zachary]

So I've decided I might go for putting together a MISTer. Long story short, there are a lot of consoles and older computers I'd (we'd) like to play and I have come to the realization that searching them all out at yardsales for cheap will either take forever, or I'd have to buy them used on eBay or other for +$100 a piece, or just start put together a MISTer.

So I spent several hours yesterday trying to see what the MISTer was capabable of and what controllers to get. We like playing on our CRT and see lots of comments about VGA on the MISTer, but what about 15kHz NTSC or RGBs? Can it output 15kHz 240P and such? If so, what kind of connector/signal? My TV is composite, S/video and RGB only, no component. Will that work?

Also, there seems to be a lot of back order with controllers and controller ports (due to pandemic shortages?). I've heard good things about 8bitdo controllers, but those all seem out-of-stock. I've also looked into something called Bliss-Box but certain connectors seem to be unavailable like ones for SNES. I'm still thinking about going with Bliss-Box/BLISster and waiting for the other cables/connectors to become available over time, but I just don't know if there's another way of connecting some good controllers that I'm missing. Any suggestions about controllers?

Thanks!

[BuckoA51]

Although the video output on the Mister IO add-on board is a d-sub15 typically associated with 31khz VGA signals, a simple change in the ini file means it can output 15khz signals too, so all you need is a suitable Mister SCART cable (be sure it's an actual Mister SCART cable so that the attenuation resistor is present on the sync line).

I have the Blisster but honestly never used it yet, not all cores support its low latency mode and unless I'm mistaken that's required to use any controllers connected via the BLISster. (Someone with more experience should probably clarify that!)

[Syntax]

BlisSTer can use any controller on any core fine, But if you want super pow latency LLAPI mode you need a LLAPI core, which is most of the common systems.

[Issac Zachary]

Thank you! Ya, I kept reading VGA port and was familiar with D-Sub15 being used for other RGB signals such as RGBs, not just VGA, but it was a bit confusing.

Sounds like I'm on track then. Thanks for the heads up on the LLAPI cores. I'll look into that. All this is new to me. I'm excited!

I did see the LL Cool Joy that apparently never came out that would have been a nice alternative.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but are there any other good low latency controller options out there that cover most all consoles (including Atari paddles, Arknoid, etc.)?

[fernan1234]

I did see the LL Cool Joy that apparently never came out that would have been a nice alternative.

Probably because it's not needed, and neither are the LLAPI cores, thanks to the introduction of fast USB polling last year. Try turning fast USB polling on with the included script with any USB pad and you'll see.

[Issac Zachary]

Thanks for the help! It's very much appreciated!

With some more research I'm also answering some of my own questions here (I think).

I found another way of connecting controllers called SNAC. It looks like I can only connect one controller this way, but it's zero lag so would be a way to play Duck Hunt. Nice!

The Bliss Box page says they're out of a few controller connectors and don't offer them (Neo Geo and SNES). But according to their FaceBook page it looks like they're going to be making them in a couple runs here soon, so that's nice.

The links from the 8bitdo page go to Amazon items that are out-of-stock. But if I look for them on Amazon I can find the same ones in stock. I'm not sure if they're from the same supplier though or just marked up or something.

Looking at total costs it looks like it'll run me around $500 for the whole setup, which is quite a bit more than what I'm used to paying. But for the amount of consoles (and arcade machines) it can "simulate" it's not a bad deal at all. Although for that price I could get an NES, Sega Genesis, Atari 7800 and maybe a Commodore 64. But then how am I supposed to be able to play the Turbografix 16's version of Bonk's Adventure (on a CRT)?

[fernan1234]

I found another way of connecting controllers called SNAC. It looks like I can only connect one controller this way, but it's zero lag so would be a way to play Duck Hunt. Nice!

SNAC is cool as it lets you use original peripherals, but AFAIK it only works with two cores: NES and SNES. Technically PCE also but you need some mod. I've said this already but I want to stress again trying fast USB polling with any (wired) USB pad and see if that's enough for you (should be for virtually all cases except speedrunning games like Super Mario Bros.), before spending extra on stuff like SNAC or Bliss Box adapters.

[Issac Zachary]

I've said this already but I want to stress again trying fast USB polling with any (wired) USB pad and see if that's enough for you (should be for virtually all cases except speedrunning games like Super Mario Bros.), before spending extra on stuff like SNAC or Bliss Box adapters.

I'll give it a try. I don't have any controllers other than stock SNES and Playstation and no USB control pads or joysticks of any sort. Do you have a recommendation or should I just get any NES, SEGA-G, etc. USB pad and give 'er a try?

[fernan1234]

I'll give it a try. I don't have any controllers other than stock SNES and Playstation and no USB control pads or joysticks of any sort. Do you have a recommendation or should I just get any NES, SEGA-G, etc. USB pad and give 'er a try?

My approach is to use cheap original controller to USB adapters/dongles like Mayflash ones. There's some that have multiple ports too. For most arcade cores and Neo Geo I use a Mayflash Sega Saturn to USB adapter (also has PS2 and N64 ports), since the Saturn controller has enough buttons and great layout that works well with most games.
Another option is to get modern USB recreations of classic controllers, such as those made for the "Mini" consoles released by Nintendo, Sega, Sony, Konami, etc. Both ways let you preserve the original feel and form factor of the controller, with the convenience of USB. That's the nice thing about fast USB polling, it will make basically any cheap adapter work great. Initially there were concerns about what could happen when pads/adapters are being polled at a way faster rate than they were made of, but I've never heard of anyone having issues.

[Issac Zachary]

Cool! I just looked up Mayflash and see they have a NES and SNES in one to USB addapter for not too much. So a couple of these and it looks like I'm good for starting out anyhow, a $170 FPGA, the SDRAM for $50 and the $50 I/O board for my CRT plus at least one, maybe two, Mayflash addapters for about $20 each is around $310. A shoe box for now too. A bit cheaper than the whole kit-kat and kaboodle. Thanks again!

[fernan1234]

and the $50 I/O board for my CRT

If you're trying to minimize cost, you can replace the I/O board with a cheap HDMI-to-Component (non-scaling) converter for about $15 (or HDMI-to-VGA dongle if you have a sync combiner or your CRT takes RGBHV), setting the MiSTer to output in "direct video" mode. This way you don't get dual video output though if that's something you wanted.

[Issac Zachary]

If you're trying to minimize cost, you can replace the I/O board with a cheap HDMI-to-Component (non-scaling) converter for about $15 (or HDMI-to-VGA dongle if you have a sync combiner or your CRT takes RGBHV), setting the MiSTer to output in "direct video" mode. This way you don't get dual video output though if that's something you wanted.

I might just use it with the 42" plama TV I got for free until I decide to get the I/O board.

But eventually I'd like to play Duck Hunt.

That and I'm not sure exactly why I can't play 8bit and 16bit titles on modern hardware. I've played NES and SNES games on the Switch, a few different Switches actually on a few different TV's (as well as on the Switch's portable LCD screen) including one TV that the guy claimed was low lag. But I just can't seem to get a feel for them. I come back to my SNES and have no problem with the same games. I don't currently have an NES but I get a similar feeling for NES games too. The same with Atari 2600, SNES and NES consoles on a couple different flat panel TV's. We even tried the Wii on three different flat panel TV's and my boys were the ones who decided they preferred to play it on the ol' Trinitron.

We're just a CRT family I guess.

[buttersoft]

We're just a CRT family I guess.

And they say this generation isn't raising children right! I'm definitely steering mine the same way

and the $50 I/O board for my CRT

If you're trying to minimize cost, you can replace the I/O board with a cheap HDMI-to-Component (non-scaling) converter for about $15 (or HDMI-to-VGA dongle if you have a sync combiner or your CRT takes RGBHV), setting the MiSTer to output in "direct video" mode. This way you don't get dual video output though if that's something you wanted.

the info just above[/quote]

Most cheap AG6200-based HDMI-to-VGA adapters will work fine with RGBS input. Those were the chips used everywhere until the really cheap adapters that appeared a few years back. So any cheap adapter from more than about 5 years ago should work. The only new one I’ve confirmed working is the Vention AIDB0, but those are out of stock everywhere I checked. If you’re going to try this, and can’t get an older adapter, I’d imagine you’d do best buying brand-name ones maybe from U-green or Belkin or Comsol. Tendak ones are to be avoided for MiSTer at 15kHz, IMO (and while they might work at higher res with separate sync, the image is pretty fuzzy).

[Issac Zachary]

Most cheap AG6200-based HDMI-to-VGA adapters will work fine with RGBS input.

How do I do that? Just connect the H and V lines together for the sync line?

[buttersoft]

Most cheap AG6200-based HDMI-to-VGA adapters will work fine with RGBS input.

How do I do that? Just connect the H and V lines together for the sync line?

No, the MiSTer will output composite sync if you tell it to. You set Direct Video =1 and Composite Sync =1 in the mister.ini file. It then delivers 15kHz video + c-sync out the HDMI port, and with a working converter as above, you get RGBS out a VGA (DB15HD) plug with c-sync on pin13 as expected.

I think someone above mentions the C-sync level being a bit high, so a scart cable with a resistor might be a good idea. Most sets do buffer the composite/sync input though.

[matt]

I use the Retro Bit wired USB Saturn pad on my MiSTer. I'm usually pretty lag sensitive and I don't notice any with this setup. It's good enough that I wouldn't bother with SNAC or any of the other super low latency options.

Daemonbite adapters are very good, too. Very easy to put one together yourself (and cheap!), and they should be available from third party sellers if that's not your style. I haven't noticed any lag with these either.

[BrianC]

I found another way of connecting controllers called SNAC. It looks like I can only connect one controller this way, but it's zero lag so would be a way to play Duck Hunt. Nice!

SNAC is cool as it lets you use original peripherals, but AFAIK it only works with two cores: NES and SNES. Technically PCE also but you need some mod. I've said this already but I want to stress again trying fast USB polling with any (wired) USB pad and see if that's enough for you (should be for virtually all cases except speedrunning games like Super Mario Bros.), before spending extra on stuff like SNAC or Bliss Box adapters.

It also works with the Genesis, SMS, Atari 7800 (still buggy, though the lightgun part works great with the SMS gun settings), and Gameboy (not GBA) cores. The Atari 2600 adapter is not worth getting since it only works with an outdated unofficial core, the core will likely use the Genesis adapter since that's what the current 7800 core uses, and the 2600-daptor D9 handles paddles without some odd audio jack solution. I feel it's worth it for lightgun games (some cores require swapping controllers, but even the Super Scope works) and the GB/GBC link. I have been using 8bitdo 2.4G (wired using a micro USB cable), raphnet adapters, the 2600-Daptor D9, and various other wired controllers for older system controllers.

[jandrogo]

As @matt says the Daemonbite encoders:

https://github.com/MickGyver/DaemonBite ... ollers-USB

Inexpensive, DIY (or ready to buy), nearly zero lag with 1ms polling and for all classic console devices.

[BuckoA51]

Probably because it's not needed, and neither are the LLAPI cores, thanks to the introduction of fast USB polling last year. Try turning fast USB polling on with the included script with any USB pad and you'll see.

I don't know for sure because I haven't been keeping up with this but, I thought LLAPI with a Blisster was still supposed to be significantly better than fast USB polling? Sure if you're just gaming casually you probably wouldn't notice, but...

Or is that definitely NOT the case?

[fernan1234]

Probably because it's not needed, and neither are the LLAPI cores, thanks to the introduction of fast USB polling last year. Try turning fast USB polling on with the included script with any USB pad and you'll see.

I don't know for sure because I haven't been keeping up with this but, I thought LLAPI with a Blisster was still supposed to be significantly better than fast USB polling? Sure if you're just gaming casually you probably wouldn't notice, but...

Or is that definitely NOT the case?

It's not. I'm not qualified to talk about the technical aspects of it, but if you go to the MiSTer forums I'm sure there's technical talk there that covers it. From what I know, you could go with either option even for speedrunning, at least games that don't have super sensitive timings (for a game like SMB1 you'd want SNAC to do serious run attempts).

[Issac Zachary]

No, the MiSTer will output composite sync if you tell it to. You set Direct Video =1 and Composite Sync =1 in the mister.ini file. It then delivers 15kHz video + c-sync out the HDMI port, and with a working converter as above, you get RGBS out a VGA (DB15HD) plug with c-sync on pin13 as expected.

Very interesting. I'd never have thought that an HDMI to VGA adapter would output 15kHz RGB with Composite Sync. I'll keep my eyes out for one. On the other hand, if I can't find one for cheap I'll probably get the I/O board since I'm sure I'll get one eventually anyway.

Daemonbite adapters are very good, too. Very easy to put one together yourself (and cheap!), and they should be available from third party sellers if that's not your style.

As @matt says the Daemonbite encoders:

https://github.com/MickGyver/DaemonBite ... ollers-USB

Inexpensive, DIY (or ready to buy), nearly zero lag with 1ms polling and for all classic console devices.

Wow! I love to tinker soldering. So this looks like a fun project!

[SNAC] also works with the Genesis, SMS, Atari 7800 (still buggy, though the lightgun part works great with the SMS gun settings), and Gameboy (not GBA) cores. The Atari 2600 adapter is not worth getting since it only works with an outdated unofficial core, the core will likely use the Genesis adapter since that's what the current 7800 core uses, and the 2600-daptor D9 handles paddles without some odd audio jack solution. I feel it's worth it for lightgun games (some cores require swapping controllers, but even the Super Scope works) and the GB/GBC link.

Cool! Sounds good to me. I didn't know about the GB/GBC link, but that's cool too! The whole idea (for me anyhow) for going for a MiSTer is to get a close of an experience to the original hardware as possible, including lightgun capability. If I just wanted a box that played games I'd start a RetroPie setup. I almost did that when I started getting back into gaming, but then realized that lag or something (I'm not sure what) was bothering me more than I had expected. So I found a free SNES and a CRT and started to collect... but I didn't get very far (I got a Wii and a PS2, which weren't exactly what I had in mind).

[Issac Zachary]

Another question I'm having a hard time finding an answer.

So SNAC is for one controller. USB can use lots of controllers (through hub). BLISSter is for two controllers.

But can fast polling work with more than one USB controller? (Prefferably two?)

[Harrumph]

Yes it works on all USB ports.

[Issac Zachary]

Yes it works on all USB ports.

Awesome!

[Issac Zachary]

Trying to look up even more for my perfectionist greedy self, it seems the DaemonBite encoders can handle analog inputs such as the Atari Paddles. I still need to verify this though as there's not a lot of info on this. Does anyone here know?

I did find the Daptor adaptors that can connect to Atari paddles in case they can't.

Edit:
So DaemonBite encoders won't work for Atari Paddles. But there is this one here:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Retro-C ... rollersUSB

I did find many examples of the Daptor adaptors not working well with Mister. I'm not sure if the MiSTer-devel PaddleTwoControllers work any better. It seems SNAC works for Atari paddle controllers. But then there's Arkanoid.

Anyhow, researching before even getting this set up is fun!

[cave hermit]

Just want to chime in and say I've had great success outputting 240p 15khz to my PVM using this hdmi to vga adapter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ZM ... UTF8&psc=1) in conjunction with this VGA/HD15 to BNC cable (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001U ... UTF8&psc=1). Just had to enable direct video and composite sync in my ini file.

[fernan1234]

Just want to chime in and say I've had great success outputting 240p 15khz to my PVM using this hdmi to vga adapter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ZM ... UTF8&psc=1) in conjunction with this VGA/HD15 to BNC cable (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001U ... UTF8&psc=1). Just had to enable direct video and composite sync in my ini file.

Typically these dongles require that you set the MiSTer's output to limited range rather than full to get correct blacks, is that the case with this one?

[Issac Zachary]

Just want to chime in and say I've had great success outputting 240p 15khz to my PVM using this hdmi to vga adapter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ZM ... UTF8&psc=1)

So the DE10-Nano for $170-$180
That HDMI to VGA adapter for around $9 (if I don't just plug into my plasma instead).
A cheap USB hub for $3
a couple Arduino Pro Micros for about $8 total ($4 each)
and a couple SNES extention cords $10 for the two.

That's just at about $200 to get started! Not bad!

Oh, I forgot a the VGA to Scart cable and a few USB cables. Still, not bad!

Edit:

I forgot RAM. But anyhow... still not bad.

[cave hermit]

Just want to chime in and say I've had great success outputting 240p 15khz to my PVM using this hdmi to vga adapter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ZM ... UTF8&psc=1) in conjunction with this VGA/HD15 to BNC cable (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001U ... UTF8&psc=1). Just had to enable direct video and composite sync in my ini file.

Typically these dongles require that you set the MiSTer's output to limited range rather than full to get correct blacks, is that the case with this one?

Not 100% sure, but personally I just set limited range.

[Issac Zachary]

Or try to make my own BLISSter board?

https://github.com/ulao/Bliss-Box-LLAPI