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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:07 pm 


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Awesome results! Its good to see some actual lag test results of these HDCRT sets! That's a lot better than I had expected and gives me a question to pose... So without hijacking this thread too much, there's a KV-40XBR800 in my area on craigslist for free. Looks to be well cared for, with stand, remote, all manuals etc. Should I see about picking this CRT up? I have a couple of problems:

1. The TV is 325lbs
2. I would need to replace the CRT currently in my living room - a 36" JVC AV-36D501 that is in excellent condition and picture adjusted to be as perfect as I could get without doing adjustments to the yoke, convergence rings etc.

The XBR would have to replace the D-Series because my wife is already mad at me for having too many crt's in the living room (the jvc and 3 arcade cabs). I actually haven't even mentioned the potential pickup of the Sony to her yet although I've been thinking it over all week. I'd have to give the D-Series away. However, I like the idea of being able to play all of my games on one crt in progressive mode either passthrough or with OSSC/Retrotink. I'm not going to worry about lightgun games for now as I haven't played them in a while and figure I can use a Sinden or something similar in the future.

Any advice is welcome!


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:49 pm 


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incrediblehark wrote:
The XBR would have to replace the D-Series because my wife is already mad at me for having too many crt's in the living room (the jvc and 3 arcade cabs). I actually haven't even mentioned the potential pickup of the Sony to her yet although I've been thinking it over all week. I'd have to give the D-Series away. However, I like the idea of being able to play all of my games on one crt in progressive mode either passthrough or with OSSC/Retrotink. I'm not going to worry about lightgun games for now as I haven't played them in a while and figure I can use a Sinden or something similar in the future.


You will have a frame of lag on everything at 480p.

Artificial 240p via the OSSC will probably look good. But better than true 240p on a JVC D-series? I doubt it.


Last edited by BazookaBen on Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:49 pm 


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incrediblehark wrote:
However, I like the idea of being able to play all of my games on one crt in progressive mode either passthrough or with OSSC/Retrotink. I'm not going to worry about lightgun games for now as I haven't played them in a while and figure I can use a Sinden or something similar in the future.

Any advice is welcome!


This is the ultimate CRT ever created. Bar none. You'd be crazy not to get it. Mike Chi could easily (forgive me Mike) implement a 540p mode that would give you zero lag on this thing. While you wait for him or the OSSC Pro or the PixelFX Morph to introduce that resolution, you could get by with a GBS-C or Retrotink 5X running at 480p and you'll have a single frame of lag.

YOLO my dude. Its worth getting even if you need to get in the back of the set and adjust yoke,rings,reactors,mags, strips etc.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:16 am 


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BazookaBen wrote:
You will have a frame of lag on everything at 480p.

Artificial 240p via the OSSC will probably look good. But better than true 240p on a JVC D-series? I doubt it.


240p does look REALLY good on the D-Series, better than the FV310 in my opinion. I can handle 1 frame of lag, my 480p panasonic plasma has ~1.6 just based on manual lag test and seems responsive enough for me. Wish I could just keep both!


Josh128 wrote:
This is the ultimate CRT ever created. Bar none. You'd be crazy not to get it. Mike Chi could easily (forgive me Mike) implement a 540p mode that would give you zero lag on this thing. While you wait for him or the OSSC Pro or the PixelFX Morph to introduce that resolution, you could get by with a GBS-C or Retrotink 5X running at 480p and you'll have a single frame of lag.

YOLO my dude. Its worth getting even if you need to get in the back of the set and adjust yoke,rings,reactors,mags, strips etc.


Thanks for the nudge, I wouldn't want to miss out on the chance to own the "Ultimate CRT!" I'm going to email the guy and see if its still available, details etc. Just need to figure out logistics of getting this into my house if everything else goes well. I don't want to derail this thread anymore so I'll probably send you a PM at some point with some more questions for you.

Thanks to both of you for the input!


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:42 am 


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For what it's worth, you can use Swiss to force Gamecube games to run at 540p letterboxed. It's just one use case but right now it's better than nothing!


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:58 am 


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^
I wasnt aware of that. I have Swiss but wasnt aware of the ability to output different resolutions like that. Where do you look for that option?


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:21 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
incrediblehark wrote:
However, I like the idea of being able to play all of my games on one crt in progressive mode either passthrough or with OSSC/Retrotink. I'm not going to worry about lightgun games for now as I haven't played them in a while and figure I can use a Sinden or something similar in the future.

Any advice is welcome!


This is the ultimate CRT ever created. Bar none. You'd be crazy not to get it. Mike Chi could easily (forgive me Mike) implement a 540p mode that would give you zero lag on this thing. While you wait for him or the OSSC Pro or the PixelFX Morph to introduce that resolution, you could get by with a GBS-C or Retrotink 5X running at 480p and you'll have a single frame of lag.

YOLO my dude. Its worth getting even if you need to get in the back of the set and adjust yoke,rings,reactors,mags, strips etc.
Has Mike Chi ever mentioned this before or are you just wishful thinking? If the RT5X added this feature I would consider buying one.

I own a Jvc 36 i'art and 3 sony 34xbr960s. For 240p, stick with the SD crt. However for modern gaming those Sony xbrs are tough to beat. If your source can output 1080i(Xbox 360, wiiu, ps4, ps5, pc) your lag will be 0 if you toggle HDPT in the service menu.

We were just playing VF5: Ultimate Showdown on the PS4 Pro in 1080i and it looked and moved better than my 77" C1 OLED.

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CH-17DXA(TVL800),Samsung UBJ590(LED),Panasonic P50VT20(Plasma),JVC RS400(LCoS),Optoma27HDR(DLP)


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:25 pm 


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Bahn Yuki wrote:
We were just playing VF5: Ultimate Showdown on the PS4 Pro in 1080i and it looked and moved better than my 77" C1 OLED.


Unfortunately VF5US doesn't run a higher resolution on PS4 Pro, so it won't even take advantage of the extra resolution on the OLED.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:06 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
I wasnt aware of that. I have Swiss but wasnt aware of the ability to output different resolutions like that. Where do you look for that option?

You need to set AVE Compatibility to CMPV-DOL for that option not to be hidden.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:31 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
Josh128 wrote:
I wasnt aware of that. I have Swiss but wasnt aware of the ability to output different resolutions like that. Where do you look for that option?

You need to set AVE Compatibility to CMPV-DOL for that option not to be hidden.



Thanks! I will look into it.

Bahn Yuki wrote:
Has Mike Chi ever mentioned this before or are you just wishful thinking? If the RT5X added this feature I would consider buying one.


I've requested / mentioned it to Mike on the 5X Pro thread, but he hasnt responded. He is undoubtedly super busy right now. Technically this mode is well within the Pro's capabilities, the only question is if the unit has enough firmware / memory capacity to allow additional resolutions vs what it currently offers, but I suspect it does. Mike would just have to be willing to implement it in a future FW update. From a business perspective, it makes sense to add such features if the unit is capable, because as you just proved, new features like this can sway those on the fence into definitely wanting one. Got that Mike? :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:11 pm 


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would love to see some more pics of 240p upscaled to 480p w/scanlines on these HDCRTs to see how they compare. Even with a frame of lag I don't think these sets should get as much hate as they commonly do around the internet. a 540p mode available from a scaler would just make it that much better.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:49 pm 


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incrediblehark wrote:
would love to see some more pics of 240p upscaled to 480p w/scanlines on these HDCRTs to see how they compare. Even with a frame of lag I don't think these sets should get as much hate as they commonly do around the internet. a 540p mode available from a scaler would just make it that much better.


I can’t wait to see this scenario on the OSSC as well.
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:01 pm 


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Hoagtech wrote:
incrediblehark wrote:
would love to see some more pics of 240p upscaled to 480p w/scanlines on these HDCRTs to see how they compare. Even with a frame of lag I don't think these sets should get as much hate as they commonly do around the internet. a 540p mode available from a scaler would just make it that much better.


I can’t wait to see this scenario on the OSSC as well.
I've tried it and wasn't impressed. It darkened the image quite a bit. Stick to SD crt for 240p.

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LG 77C1(OLED),TCL 75R635(MiniLED),Apple Studio Monitor 21(PCCRT),JVC I'Art 36(SDCRT),SONY 34XBR960x3(HDCRT),CH-15DXA(TVL800)
CH-17DXA(TVL800),Samsung UBJ590(LED),Panasonic P50VT20(Plasma),JVC RS400(LCoS),Optoma27HDR(DLP)


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:16 pm 


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I might be able to play around with the GBS-Control tomorrow and try some 240p stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:01 am 


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Bahn Yuki wrote:
Hoagtech wrote:
incrediblehark wrote:
would love to see some more pics of 240p upscaled to 480p w/scanlines on these HDCRTs to see how they compare. Even with a frame of lag I don't think these sets should get as much hate as they commonly do around the internet. a 540p mode available from a scaler would just make it that much better.


I can’t wait to see this scenario on the OSSC as well.
I've tried it and wasn't impressed. It darkened the image quite a bit. Stick to SD crt for 240p.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk



We’ll see.. I’m wondering how I’m going to go from Extron RXI 203’s RGBHV output into the Sony’s DVI in..

My plan is to run OSSC into 203 to calibrate the “dark image”

Can someone suggest an equipment chain order for these 2 devices?

All this hypothetical anticipation while camping.. Nature’s beautiful and so is anticipating testing an HDCRT in nature..
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:31 am 


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Nice! I went camping over the Memorial Day weekend and did a similar thing, reading up on scalers at shmups…

I’m curious, and I am probably wrong because I don’t have as as much knowledge on the tech involved in these scalers, but say for example the 5x becomes capable of a 540p mode. Would it require a frame buffer and potentially introduce a frame of lag, putting us right where we are with a 480p signal? Or could it potentially only be a fraction of that lag?


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:34 am 


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incrediblehark wrote:
Nice! I went camping over the Memorial Day weekend and did a similar thing, reading up on scalers at shmups…

I’m curious, and I am probably wrong because I don’t have as as much knowledge on the tech involved in these scalers, but say for example the 5x becomes capable of a 540p mode. Would it require a frame buffer and potentially introduce a frame of lag, putting us right where we are with a 480p signal? Or could it potentially only be a fraction of that lag?


It would only be a fraction of a frame, since it just has to buffer the extra 60 or so blank lines. It'd be the same as existing devices that display 960p in a 1080p frame.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:28 pm 


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A 540p option should be no different than the current 768p option, which integer scales 240 to 720 and displays in a 768p frame with 48 pixels of vertical borders and works beautifully with no additional lag vs any other mode when in framelock.

I think the 5X Pro can do it no problem, we'll just have to wait until Mike's ready to address it and speak definitively on it.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:01 pm 


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Josh128 wrote:
A 540p option should be no different than the current 768p option, which integer scales 240 to 720 and displays in a 768p frame with 48 pixels of vertical borders and works beautifully with no additional lag vs any other mode when in framelock.

I think the 5X Pro can do it no problem, we'll just have to wait until Mike's ready to address it and speak definitively on it.
The OSSC pro has been confirmed to have 1080i output. In fact I plan on using it for 1080p- >1080i on newer gpus(pascal was last to support interlace)

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CH-17DXA(TVL800),Samsung UBJ590(LED),Panasonic P50VT20(Plasma),JVC RS400(LCoS),Optoma27HDR(DLP)


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:05 pm 


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Some photos of the 36HS420 via the RT5X Pro:

Image

https://i.imgur.com/ZYSCSk7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gsVoGkq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uTCkpWA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/SolvSMW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AUUZWpX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZEHoeM1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/J0mZM4J.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:27 am 


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Looks pretty legit!

Now you need to try it with 240p 16:9 games like Blazing Chrome or Shovel Knight!


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:44 am 


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Sweet that does look pretty good.

Is it the angle of the photo or is there a reason the scan-lines don’t seem to space correctly in the trees?

Image
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:55 am 


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I mentioned that in the 5X thread-- it appears that the set is not scaling 480p perfectly. Vertical scaling is slightly off at 480p, but its only visible with dark scanlines. It tries to display it in a 960i mode, I believe a line 2X scaling in a 540p mode would remedy that. 720p in displays in a 1080i frame, according to the service menu. But the set cant resolve 720 horizontal lines so line 3x doesnt work with scanlines at all. What I need to do is create a couple custom 1080i and 540p resolutions on my laptop and run Retroarch on the set to see what the issue is. If anyone (Bahn Yuki?) has a working modeline for this 33KHz res I could try it real quick, other than that its probably going to take some trial and error.

https://i.imgur.com/Jeq4LY4.jpg

Image

Below is what the white screen looks like with no scanlines.

https://imgur.com/Z9hUNiU

Image


Last edited by Josh128 on Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:32 am 


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Josh128 wrote:
I mentioned that in the 5X thread-- it appears that the set is not scaling 480p perfectly. Vertical scaling is slightly off at 480p, but its only visible with dark scanlines. I believe a line 2X in a 540p mode would remedy that.

https://i.imgur.com/Jeq4LY4.jpg

Image

Below is what the white screen looks like with no scanlines.

https://imgur.com/Z9hUNiU

Image


Ahh shucks.. oh well. There’s light at the end of the tunnel. I’ll be purchasing one of the new scalers as the feature is implemented.

Until then. We play a lot of halo and melee and that should look better without the scanlines.

Have you tried 3x mode to see if 720p looks any better with the scanlines?
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:46 am 


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Yeah, it cant resolve 720 horizontal lines so it doesnt do line 3X scanlines evenly. Heres some other shots I took.


https://i.imgur.com/VnLm9Wxh.jpg
Image

https://i.imgur.com/UhTF7TEh.jpg
Image


Last edited by Josh128 on Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:56 am 


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BazookaBen wrote:
Looks pretty legit!

Now you need to try it with 240p 16:9 games like Blazing Chrome or Shovel Knight!
I beat axhiom verge my 960. Looks great. As does sonic mania

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LG 77C1(OLED),TCL 75R635(MiniLED),Apple Studio Monitor 21(PCCRT),JVC I'Art 36(SDCRT),SONY 34XBR960x3(HDCRT),CH-15DXA(TVL800)
CH-17DXA(TVL800),Samsung UBJ590(LED),Panasonic P50VT20(Plasma),JVC RS400(LCoS),Optoma27HDR(DLP)


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:31 am 


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If it is an uneven stretch from 480 to 540,

You could try your hand at stretching the raster back to its 480p frame through the service.

I would mark your defaults and start adjusting the vertical size which is category 2170D_1 in my sets manual.

Your going to need to get used to this when the time comes for stretching the raster after the target

If you really want to test the concept. Fudoh recommended an Extron DSC 301 which can Create custom resolution outputs for around $100 on eBay.

I’m on the fence about purchasing one myself..

Image
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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:33 am 


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Hoagtech wrote:
Sweet that does look pretty good.

Is it the angle of the photo or is there a reason the scan-lines don’t seem to space correctly in the trees?

Image


Yup, this has been my experience with HD CRTs too. 480p and 720p are both scaled to 540p which looks fine for most things but ruins scanline filters. Until somebody makes an upscaler that can do letterboxed 540p it's best to just line double anything 240p and play it with that blocky emulated look. These TVs do have a softer image than flat panels or PC CRTs so it doesn't look quite as garish as a modern display.

Supposedly some Wegas do display 480p letterboxed and just expand the raster to make it fit, which is a much better solution.


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:00 am 


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matt wrote:
Supposedly some Wegas do display 480p letterboxed and just expand the raster to make it fit, which is a much better solution.


In my understanding, all HD Sony CRT's handle 480p this way.

Likewise, with the interlace DRC filter, they also double 480i to 960i inside of a zoomed 1080i raster. So they're decent sets for 480i as well. Just not direct 240p


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 Post subject: Re: 240 to 540p for SONY Wega KV-32HS510 Dump Find
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:41 am 


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Hoagtech wrote:
If it is an uneven stretch from 480 to 540,

You could try your hand at stretching the raster back to its 480p frame through the service.

I would mark your defaults and start adjusting the vertical size which is category 2170D_1 in my sets manual.

Your going to need to get used to this when the time comes for stretching the raster after the target

If you really want to test the concept. Fudoh recommended an Extron DSC 301 which can Create custom resolution outputs for around $100 on eBay.

I’m on the fence about purchasing one myself..

Image


I mentioned in the 5X Pro thread that I already tried stretching the raster vertically and playing with vertical linearity, and it made no difference. I think the issue is the digital scaler itself in the set is sending an uneven scale out to the raster, so no amount of stretching or squeezing the raster makes any kind of difference. You'd have to find an option to adjust the parameters in the digital scaler itself, which I dont think is possible.

I plan to try to create a custom 33.75 kHz / 540p resolution on a laptop and see if I can get perfect scaling that way.


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