240 to 540p for SONY Trinitron KV-32HS510 HDCRT Dump Find

[Josh128]

So I checked out the 540p from the tink5x / component converter on my 30-HS420, and I was super duper impressed. I had never even considered playing 240p on this tv before that, but it looked and played awesome.


This got me thinking about setting up a custom 540p resolution on my Mister. After a lot of digging, I finally got a modeline that held sync. It is a 1920x540 resolution. What's strange is that the aspect ratio of the menu core is perfect, but console cores are basically 1/2 of their proper width ... I worked around this by making a 8:3 custom aspect ratio to stretch it back out. If anyone has any experience with 540p from the Mister's HDMI, definitely let me know. Hopefully 540p gains some popularity in the future and we wont have to do this technical stuff to have native resolution on these screens haha.

It does look great indeed, and with less than 3.25ms (240p/480i source) or 1.6ms (480p source)! Its the real deal.

So you got 540p working via HDMI? Do you mind posting the working modeline here? Maybe Mike can look at the differences in his timings in the current 540p RT5X mode vs what you have and possibly move to those timings in a later update. It could potentially eliminate the need for the component converter that seems to be almost universally required to get the mode working on these Sony HD CRTs at this time.

I’ll compare lag to the RT5X at 540P but was wondering if the lack of 540P on the Time Slueth will skew the results? I know that 540P is 1080i but the same is true of 240P and 480i yet the Time Slueth has a 240P option.

The output res of the TS doesnt matter to the TV as far as lag is concerned, because you arent feeding the TV with the TS. You are feeding either the RT5X or your Extron, and either of them have to feed the TV either 1080i or 540p for zero lag mode (with HDPT=0). I've already tested a TS feeding an RT5X, feeding the TV 540p in zero lag mode, the results are below. You can change the output res on the TS to anything you want, if the RT5X can accept it, it will convert to 540p at its output. The lag differences seen there are processing differences in the RT5X for different input resolutions. 480p is the fastest followed by 480i and 240p.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67984&start=1095

[nes.og]

Thanks for the info!

[Bahn Yuki]

So I checked out the 540p from the tink5x / component converter on my 30-HS420, and I was super duper impressed. I had never even considered playing 240p on this tv before that, but it looked and played awesome.


This got me thinking about setting up a custom 540p resolution on my Mister. After a lot of digging, I finally got a modeline that held sync. It is a 1920x540 resolution. What's strange is that the aspect ratio of the menu core is perfect, but console cores are basically 1/2 of their proper width ... I worked around this by making a 8:3 custom aspect ratio to stretch it back out. If anyone has any experience with 540p from the Mister's HDMI, definitely let me know. Hopefully 540p gains some popularity in the future and we wont have to do this technical stuff to have native resolution on these screens haha.

Can you provide us with the video mode? I'm trying to work on this now.

[nes.og]

Can you provide us with the video mode? I'm trying to work on this now.

Try using a CVT calculator with and without reduced blanking if necessary.

[Bahn Yuki]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[nes.og]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help.

I don’t know all the parameters but can tell you that the RT5X uses a 1920x540 resolution so use that with CVT if you have been trying 960x540.

[ShadowofBob]

Great info on this thread. The Component vs DVI/HDMI lag tests are interesting given the processing diagram just posted. I would have guessed the analog would have had less lag. I looked into a lot of this a while ago when I got my KD-36XS955 and have enjoyed using it even with the 1 frame of lag with my OSSC for 240p upscale at 2x an 480p content. Using my Xbox 360 set at 1080i and no lag has also been great sans letter boxing. Has anyone here tried the 540p Retrotink 5X feature on a 4:3 HD CRT? Curious if the TV treats is like 1080i content and displays it in 16:9 letterbox or treats is as fullscreen 4:3.

Glad others are finally discovering these underrated sets despite their minor pitfalls.

[Josh128]

Has anyone here tried the 540p Retrotink 5X feature on a 4:3 HD CRT? Curious if the TV treats is like 1080i content and displays it in 16:9 letterbox or treats is as fullscreen 4:3.

Glad others are finally discovering these underrated sets despite their minor pitfalls.

I did the initial testing and posted in the RT5X thread. Below is what it looks like before adjustments in the SM.

[mikechi2]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help.

I don’t know all the parameters but can tell you that the RT5X uses a 1920x540 resolution so use that with CVT if you have been trying 960x540.

The RT5X outputs 1920 x 540 using the exact same timings as 1080i except without the interlace offset (so 562 lines/frame instead of 562.5 lines/field). The same trick that turns 480i into 240p.

[nes.og]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help

I don't have a Mister but this should be it:

video_mode=1920,88,44,148,540,2,5,15,74250

You'll most likely need to use a HDMI to component adapter if you aren't already.

[Bahn Yuki]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help

I don't have a Mister but this should be it:

video_mode=1920,88,44,148,540,2,5,15,74250

You'll most likely need to use a HDMI to component adapter if you aren't already.

Ok that worked, but only one of my of 960s worked over component. I'm still curious about hdmi timings. Also I'm having same aspect ratio issues as other poster had. So it's nice to see it actually does work.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[nes.og]

Ok that worked, but only one of my of 960s worked over component. I'm still curious about hdmi timings. Also I'm having same aspect ratio issues as other poster had. So it's nice to see it actually does work.

So you’re welcome? lol

Same timings for HDMI homie. Most HDCRTs won’t sync 540P over HDMI, just component. In my case my Panasonic will but not my Phillips or Sony.

[incrediblehark]

Been working on other side projects etc, but since school has started and my kids are out of the house for a good part of the day I was able to open up my 40XBR800 and inspect the B board. Here are some poorly taken photos of the board:

Spoiler

I tried to get close up shots of all of the missing components for the sake of comparison to others that have the HDPT bypass circuit correctly installed. There are a lot of things missing from this board, I'm unsure of what is exactly related to the bypass circuit though as I haven't really looked too deep into the service manual schematics.

I will say though that for me personally, looking at this up close I know what my limits are in terms of my soldering skills and workspace/equipment. I feel comfortable doing caps and could probably do the small resistors but the ICs are not something I think I could do reliably. As of now I'm going to stick with how it is and try to look for a proper B board, unless there's someone willing to take on the project and do the soldering for me (which I would gladly pay for).

At any rate, I hope that this information will be helpful to anyone else out there trying to find solutions to this specific problem.

[BazookaBen]

Same timings for HDMI homie. Most HDCRTs won’t sync 540P over HDMI, just component. In my case my Panasonic will but not my Phillips or Sony.

So you have quite a few HDCRTs it seems!

You could provide the community with some really useful information on those Philips and Panasonic sets. Like input lag figures for 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i.

Also, I'm curious how they display 480p signals. Line for line in a stretched raster, like a Sony, or some other method. Maybe even switching to a native 31kHz?

[Josh128]

incrediblehark - that looks like a crapload of unpopulated components. I wonder if thats all needed in addition to the IC to get the HDPT working? Hot air/SMD rework stations off of Amazon are cheap and I really like the one I use. Very no nonsense and it does the job. Surface mount soldering is super easy with some hot air, tweezers, flux, and a magnifying glass. But if you need all of those components populated that would be a pretty big job. Not just the soldering part but making sure you get all the right parts in all the right places.

[nes.og]

Same timings for HDMI homie. Most HDCRTs won’t sync 540P over HDMI, just component. In my case my Panasonic will but not my Phillips or Sony.

So you have quite a few HDCRTs it seems!

You could provide the community with some really useful information on those Philips and Panasonic sets. Like input lag figures for 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i.

Also, I'm curious how they display 480p signals. Line for line in a stretched raster, like a Sony, or some other method. Maybe even switching to a native 31kHz?

I’ll do some tests when get some time and will report back! So far has been challenging to find any info on service menu setting settings which may reduce latency opposed to the Sony.

[nes.og]

I can get 1920x540 to sync on my HD CRT TVs but am not having much luck getting 960x540 to sync.

A lot of old AV forum posts talk about 960x540 being best which seems like it may be true because the horizontal resolution is also half but I heard horizontal resolution doesn’t matter and that is why it can be so high using super resolutions with 240P without affecting the aspect ratio for example.

Can someone here please school me on this? I’ve done my due diligence to find answers but haven’t had any luck.

Still going to post my results from several HD CRT TVs models once I can get it all figured out!

[incrediblehark]

Its been a while, but I figured I'd post an update:

I finally was able to locate a replacement B board for my 40XBR800, and install it today. 540p mode now works as intended, and looks amazing! I have no real way of testing input lag, but I will say the picture looks sharper and overall better. I still have not had success with lightgun games - at least Sega Saturn and PS2. Haven't tried Duck Hunt yet. Josh if you are reading this did you ever get any more testing done? Any settings on the 5x and/or Service menu I should double check?


As for the B board: When comparing the two, there really is only an IC and 3 capacitors missing from my original. I attached a picture below comparing the two (new B board on top):

Spoiler

The AVSForums did mention an IC being on the corrected B Boards, I just did not realize that was the only difference. The IC (labelled on board as IC3414) is a Mitsubishi M52055FP and the 3 Capacitors look to be 10uf 16v if I read them correctly. That should be all it takes to get the HDPT bypass working on older B boards for the 40XBR800, though in the AVS Forums thread it mentions Sony telling its techs to not attempt servicing the original boards. Just thought I'd leave this info for future reference, I'm happy to have 540p on my set now!

[Josh128]

Amazing, very cool that you actually obtained and installed this. Where in the hell did you find the board and what did you have to give for it? Seems extremely rare to be able to just find one of these in the wild. Do you still need the component converter for it to work?

Unfortunately I havent tested any more on my HD CRT but my testing concluded that while NES Zapper works fine, the PS2 GunCon 2 scanline tracking style guns do not. Its not because of the 5X though, because they do work on a straight SVGA CRT monitor. I think the reason they do not work is because the 5X has to center a 480p image in a 540p window, so the timing/expected position of the scanline is off. Thats the only think I can think of.

If Mike were able to implement a 1080i mode that had non-integer scaling (thus limiting the use of scanlines severely), its possible that they would work and you wouldnt need the the HDMI to component converter either.

[incrediblehark]

Yeah I didn't expect to ever be able to find one! There are a couple of tv parts retailers online who have the board listed for ~$200 but no pics etc. Following up on those got me nowhere. I checked ebay every day with separate searches for the part number and "xbr800." Finally found a seller who had the entire 40XBR800 board/chassis listed for sale. I messaged him and he agreed to sell me just the B board for $80.

540p mode works fine for me with both the Portta and with a direct hdmi -> dvi connection on this set. Scanlines are even with no flicker now. I love that I can use the 5x to adjust picture centering etc, but any vertical adjustments mess up the scanlines. Need to do that in Service Menu. While I had the set open I was able to add a couple of magnets and most of my discoloration in the corners is now gone, but I have noticed since installing this B board the set takes a minute when turning on to get a stable picture. It could also just be the HDMI selector I'm using. I am getting a 2 flashing red light while running which leads me to believe some component in my tv will need to be repaired soon though. Haven't had a chance to look it up yet.

[BazookaBen]

Glad you fixed it!

Did the boards themselves have a different part number or revision number? Or if you were shopping for one you'd just have to look at pictures and check if IC3414 is populated?

[incrediblehark]

Same part number. In the case with the ebay seller, I noticed the tube of his was manufactured November 2003 so I asked for a closer pic of the B board, and showed him a pic of mine as reference.

[Josh128]

but I have noticed since installing this B board the set takes a minute when turning on to get a stable picture. It could also just be the HDMI selector I'm using. I am getting a 2 flashing red light while running which leads me to believe some component in my tv will need to be repaired soon though. Haven't had a chance to look it up yet.

Try to power this set directly from the wall, without using a surge protector or anything to see if that helps your blinking lights and/or sync time. Sounds stupid, but my 36" HS420 would do similar things and even shut off on its own when using a small powerstrip/surge protector. Went direct to the wall and it never happened again, rock solid.

[newsets]

Been trying it for a while. I just get a grey screen in hdmi. If anyone knows the video mode the retrotink 5x uses that could help

I don't have a Mister but this should be it:

video_mode=1920,88,44,148,540,2,5,15,74250

You'll most likely need to use a HDMI to component adapter if you aren't already.

Hi nes.og, out of curiosity can you please explain how you calculated this video_mode for MiSTer? I've been using cvt (and cvt 1.2) on linux to get a modeline and then using morf77's modeline to video_mode online converter. So far I can't replicate a modeline that produces this video_mode. If you could please provide some insight into how you came up with this video_mode that would be great. I've been using it on my Sony KV-36XBR800 (4:3 Hi-scan set) with the MiSTer and it works great, but I've always wondered how it was calculated. Thanks!

[newsets]

One explanation can be found looking through the source code for the Time Sleuth when 540p support was added...it's also discussed in the issue where 540p was requested. nes.og posted the values here six months earlier of course.

https://github.com/chriz2600/time-sleut ... 67ca6a7503

and

https://github.com/chriz2600/time-sleuth/issues/2

I imagine the values are defined in a standard like CEA-861 or something similar but I am not able to find it yet.