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 Post subject: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 12:50 am 


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Hi all! It's been a months (years maybe?)-long struggle for me to figure out what the right solution for recording accurate SNES footage at the highest possible quality would be, and was wondering if I could get some feedback or advice based on the hardware I've got and the research I've done.

I'm admittedly a little scatter-brained with weighing the pros and cons on the various solutions I've researched, but these are my thoughts and desires below.

What I want:
*Lossless, sharp capture of SNES game footage for longplay / clipped videos / GIF purposes
*Preferably captured from a native SNES with SCART (current have a Csync cable...looking to get sync-on-luma instead. Or do I stick to Csync? Somebody help me out here!)
*Capture at either 240p or 720p for proper integer scaling (yes, I'm one of those integer scaling people because I want to avoid shimmering in my captures), which in turn, makes me want to nearest-neighbor upscale to 4K
*5X scaling to 1200 cropped to 1080, while pretty, is a no-go for me as the SNES games I'm looking to capture get too much info chopped off from the top and bottom of the screen in 5X mode (particular examples: Breath of Fire I & Breath of Fire II)
*I like having multiple options, but I preferably want to capture in 8:7 square pixels and then manually edit the aspect ratio to 112.75% of 8:7 to get proper 4:3 (there are some uses where I'd want 8:7 version of the footage, and others where I'd want 4:3)

What I've got so far:

  • Magewell HDMI Pro Capture PCI-E card (HDMI + DSUB-9 port); Handles up to 1080p
  • RGB-modded SNES Jr.
  • Analogue Super Nt
  • OSSC with FirebrandX profiles
  • Sync Strike (SCART input / VGA output not even sure if needed; was curious about trying a SCART to DSUB 15-pin to 9-pin converter into my Magewell to attempt direct analog capture)

Main Issues:
*VirtualDub2 (capture software) is not giving me RGB24 / RGB32 Capture pin options and is instead showing "BGR24" / "BGRX32" instead (not sure if this is good or bad?)
*AmarecTV has been very easy to use for me but can't record with the FFV1 codec (unless I'm doing something wrong?); Also have been reading that video quality isn't as good on Amarec as on VirtualDub2
*RGB Modded SNES Jr. + OSSC do not play nice with my Magewell Capture Card
*Analogue Super Nt is the easiest solution but technically not "native" hardware

These are the options I've looked over so far, and would like feedback on:

1. Capture via RGB-modded SNES Jr. and OSSC

This would've been my ideal scenario were it not for a big progress blocker. I specifically spent money and got my SNES Jr. RGB modded via RetroFixes (THS7374 RGB amp + Ghosting Fix + S-Video) for this purpose...until I unfortunately discovered that there's a severe flickering / choppy audio issue when I plug my OSSC into my capture card, due to the SNES's weird video output and OSSC's lack of accounting for this.

As a result, my 4KTV displays my RGB SNES via OSSC just fine, but it does not play nice with my Magewell card AT ALL. I've seen some get dejitter boards installed for their SNES...which would mean yet ANOTHER additional cost for something that could also be fixed by an upscaler / line-doubler. A de-jitter mod seems incredibly superfluous to me.

Perhaps I should wait for the OSSC Pro to see if that would fix the issue? That way, I could capture in 2X 480p mode OR 3X 720p mode and scale to 4K + aspect-correct to 4:3 in post.

2. Capture via Retrotink 5X

+ Ease of use, plug 'n play
- SNES 256 mode stretches the 4:3 aspect ratio
- Generic 4:3 keeps the proper 4:3 aspect ratio but results in less sharp pixels / interpolation
- No setting for 8:7 / square pixels (yet??)
- No 3X scale (It seems Mike is not a fan of integer scaling and thus has no interest in adding it as an option)

I'm a little mixed about the Retrotink 5X. I do like the user-friendliness of it and its deinterlacing capabilities for PS2 games (which I plan to capture as well), but I'm bummed about its lack of options for the SNES.

I've learned via MLiG that 256 mode stretches the 4:3 aspect ratio ever-so-slightly, but enough to make me go "...but that's not what I want!" Additionally, there's no mode for 8:7 square pixels either so I can't capture that way and scale / aspect-correct in post.

Try of MLiG told me to just "embrace the interpolation" if I were to go with the Retrotink 5X and I appreciate the bluntness...but still feeling hesitant about it.

3. Capture via Analogue Super Nt

+ Ease of use / HDMI out means good compatibility
+ FirebrandX's 720p 3X Settings for Super Nt means proper integer scaling when capturing in both 8:7 and 4:3
+ Ability to use Zero Delay buffer for short clips and Full Buffer for longer clips
- No way to capture in 240p (so as to create smaller sized lossless video files); alternative: 480p instead of 720p?
- Not native hardware, so perhaps not ideal for "accurate" captures (open to feedback on my thought process here; should I learn to stop worrying and love the FPGA?)
- Renders my getting a SNES Jr. RGB-modded for game capture moot and I'm trying to justify this expense (^^;;)

4. Capture via Datapath Capture Card

+ Ability to capture in native 240p, thus reducing lossless video sizes, which would be important for longplay captures, and can always scale and aspect-correct in post
- Pretty nutty software setup
- Yet another capture card I'd need to install on my PC, thus additional expense
- Have no idea where I'd get a SCART to DVI-I adapter with LPF toggle and I don't have the technical know-how to make one myself.

I've been looking over Bob's RetroRGB guide using the Datapath capture card and I am INTRIGUED because I like the idea of doing direct 240p captures and then scaling from there. I'm almost tempted to try this and get one of those Datapath cards on eBay...but I have no idea where to get a SCART to DVI adapter. Bob's guide seems to only indicate it's a DIY thing and I can't do DIY.

Appreciate any and all opinions, feedback, criticism of my integer scaling thoughts, WHATEVER. I'm exhausted and indecisive and my brain is so exhausted by this rabbit hole so I'm appealing to all of you fine folk. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 1:50 am 


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If you're at the point where your quality needs for perfectly sharp input are such that even the SNES 256 mode on the RT5X isn't sharp enough for you, then the only option you've really got that's going to be sharper is the Analoge Super NT. I mean, maybe you could put something together using an OSSC with optimized sample/phase settings, but I was personally never able to get that working at all, no matter what phase setting I set the OSSC to it was always slightly out of phase.

Like, what are you actually planning to do with this footage? Put it up on YouTube, where it's going to encode it at 4:2:0 with a quarter chroma resolution and compression artifacting? The quality of video capture you can get off the 5X is going to be much better than any format you'd actually reasonably distribute video content with, since basically everything used for distribution is 4:2:0...

In terms of the Super Nt accuracy, well, accurate to what? There's a pretty significant difference between the launch SNES and the 1chip SNES too, they're very different hardware implementations that even have some minor behavioural differences. You can capture 240p from the Super Nt using the Analogue DAC, but I wouldn't recommend going that route, just use your RGB SNES at that point.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:17 am 


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I think RT5X's 256 mode is pretty sharp, but the aspect ratio is slightly off as a result (not sure why that is).

For sample / phase, I don't get any weird artifacts or fuzziness when my RGB SNES Jr. and OSSC are hooked up to my 4KTV, but I haven't been able to test that our via capture since it's not compatible with my Magewell card.

My plan for the footage is to keep archived lossless footage for clipping and GIF use, but I would also like to upload to YouTube as well.

It'd be great to see more RT5X SNES game footage in both 4:3 and 256 Modes, beyond what's been shown by MLiG. But again, 256 mode for RT5X doesn't have the proper 4:3 aspect ratio (only Generic mode does, which isn't as sharp).

If RT5X allowed for a square pixel 8:7 mode, I'd be more inclined to get one. But I'm also curious if the OSSC Pro plans to fix the compatibility / jitter issues with SNES.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:32 am 


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I like this guy. He's a funny guy!


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 7:48 am 


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Uh oh...what did I do?


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 9:04 am 


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Looks like it's buy a new capture card, buy a new scaler, or buy a SuperNT? Those are all probably more expensive than the dejitter board though :shrug:


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 4:27 pm 


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They already have the Super Nt, and it's impossible to get anything as pixel-perfect sharp as that from analog sources.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 6:05 pm 


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If you really want to do it best you need to capture at source resolution (240p) lossless then upscale in post to 4k for uploading. Uploading at 4k and having youtube downcovert to 1080p produces better results than direct 1080p due to the profile/bitrate.

Datapaths are great once you know how to configure them and know their esoteric problems. They are not perfect though.

But you will need to set phase exactly to get good results with them. For consoles that I know the exact timings on I like to upsample the horizontal resolution by 4x then back down to original horizontal resolution. This may seem retarded but it essentially allows you to not have to be precise/care about phase. Only problem is a lot of consoles/arcade do not have their exact horizontal size documented. So upsampling will be crapshoot until someone messes around a ton or looks with an oscilloscope.

For consoles and especially arcade where the timings haven't been documented be prepared to mess around a lot to get good results. You will definitely need your wheres waldos eyes for this. Additionally you may find even with all settings dialed in you may never get the phase right as datapaths don't allow fractional phase settings. Some of those you can get around by upsampling, others you have to make do.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 8:14 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
They already have the Super Nt, and it's impossible to get anything as pixel-perfect sharp as that from analog sources.


Okay, yeah. Then you can either use the SuperNT with very little effort, or:

ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
If you really want to do it best you need to capture at source resolution (240p) lossless then upscale in post to 4k for uploading. Uploading at 4k and having youtube downcovert to 1080p produces better results than direct 1080p due to the profile/bitrate.

Datapaths are great once you know how to configure them and know their esoteric problems. They are not perfect though.

But you will need to set phase exactly to get good results with them. For consoles that I know the exact timings on I like to upsample the horizontal resolution by 4x then back down to original horizontal resolution. This may seem retarded but it essentially allows you to not have to be precise/care about phase. Only problem is a lot of consoles/arcade do not have their exact horizontal size documented. So upsampling will be crapshoot until someone messes around a ton or looks with an oscilloscope.

For consoles and especially arcade where the timings haven't been documented be prepared to mess around a lot to get good results. You will definitely need your wheres waldos eyes for this. Additionally you may find even with all settings dialed in you may never get the phase right as datapaths don't allow fractional phase settings. Some of those you can get around by upsampling, others you have to make do.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 9:08 pm 


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ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
If you really want to do it best you need to capture at source resolution (240p) lossless then upscale in post to 4k for uploading. Uploading at 4k and having youtube downcovert to 1080p produces better results than direct 1080p due to the profile/bitrate.

Datapaths are great once you know how to configure them and know their esoteric problems. They are not perfect though.

But you will need to set phase exactly to get good results with them. For consoles that I know the exact timings on I like to upsample the horizontal resolution by 4x then back down to original horizontal resolution. This may seem retarded but it essentially allows you to not have to be precise/care about phase. Only problem is a lot of consoles/arcade do not have their exact horizontal size documented. So upsampling will be crapshoot until someone messes around a ton or looks with an oscilloscope.

For consoles and especially arcade where the timings haven't been documented be prepared to mess around a lot to get good results. You will definitely need your wheres waldos eyes for this. Additionally you may find even with all settings dialed in you may never get the phase right as datapaths don't allow fractional phase settings. Some of those you can get around by upsampling, others you have to make do.


If I was to try the Datapath route, what would be the best place to get a SCART to DVI converter? Is there anything else I'd need beyond that?

Setting phase shouldn't be too bad if I use that 240p Test Suite's checkerboard pattern, right?

I'm not sure I 100% follow your 4X horizontal upsample though. I guess I ought to read over the RetroRGB Datapath software guide further.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 11:00 pm 


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https://www.tindie.com/products/unmaker ... ath-e1e1s/


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 8:20 pm 


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That is a hell of a device name, haha!

Although I'm realizing that Datapath + That Device would be more costly than the Dejitter mod...but having the Datapath would open things up to more than just straight SNES capture.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 8:45 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 9:05 pm 


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Now I'm getting an idea of why my Laseractive RGB mod thread went nowhere here :| .


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2021 10:57 pm 


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RoboArmy wrote:
Now I'm getting an idea of why my Laseractive RGB mod thread went nowhere here :| .


Not sure I follow. Also I don't know what Laseractive RGB is.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 12:56 pm 



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The biggest advantages of using a Datapath are filesize and post-processing: You can save uncompressed 240p at a very small filesize and once you have the original, archival copy, you can then use software to scale it any way you'd like. If you're just streaming, or need footage for content creation, the OSSC and RT5x are much easier overall to use.

The "SCART Cleaner" should be back in stock soon and it's sole purpose was interfacing with Datapath cards (hence the "DVI" connector). HD Retrovision cables and RCA-to-DVI adapters should be just as good.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:10 pm 


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Thanks everyone!

After mulling it over some more, a friend of mine offered to help solder an RGB Bypass/Dejitter mod for my SNES Jr. when I order one, so I think I'll be going that route so that I can use it with my OSSC.

It's sorta my fault for not looking into RGB modding further than the RGB Bypass, considering I have a SNES Jr. RGB modded through RetroFixes already (but no dejitter), but this would be the cheapest route for me.

My buddy's got the Datapath card so if anything, I can borrow it and see how I like it, but the sampling configuration seems like a major headache.

BTW, I use a Csync SCART from wookiewin on eBay (which I believe is Retro-Access's eBay store). Would a Sync on Luma cable be better, or does it not really matter?


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:42 pm 


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DragonQuarter wrote:
BTW, I use a Csync SCART from wookiewin on eBay (which I believe is Retro-Access's eBay store)


No, but plenty of people have recommended wookiewin cables in the past. Doesn't seem like they make anything anymore though.

Quote:
Would a Sync on Luma cable be better, or does it not really matter?


Csync (as long as you don't mean composite video for sync) is theoretically the cleanest option, though you have to worry about sync attenuation so you don't fry any equipment. Luma is easier as a universal recommendation, though some equipment like Extron switches require csync.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:41 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
No, but plenty of people have recommended wookiewin cables in the past. Doesn't seem like they make anything anymore though.


What are you talking about?

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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:36 am 


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Whoops, I was thinking of thefoo83


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:44 am 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
DragonQuarter wrote:
BTW, I use a Csync SCART from wookiewin on eBay (which I believe is Retro-Access's eBay store)


No, but plenty of people have recommended wookiewin cables in the past. Doesn't seem like they make anything anymore though.

Quote:
Would a Sync on Luma cable be better, or does it not really matter?


Csync (as long as you don't mean composite video for sync) is theoretically the cleanest option, though you have to worry about sync attenuation so you don't fry any equipment. Luma is easier as a universal recommendation, though some equipment like Extron switches require csync.


Sync attenuation you'd only have to worry about if you're not buying a SCART cable from a reputable retro cable maker, yeah?


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:50 am 


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The cable quality has nothing to do with it, because even there the sync type can vary or you can buy the wrong cable.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:20 am 


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Figured I'd give an update on where I'm at with this.

Arthrimus is on hiatus, and RGB Bypass+Dejitter Mod chips aren't available, so I guess I can't go the OSSC to Magewell route for high-quality SNES recording.

I was enticed by the Datapath Vision, despite warnings from a friend of mine that it can be a pain in the ass with its phasing. Still, I wanted to give it a try, as I like the idea of capturing SNES footage at 240p in lossless quality and nearest neighbor scaling it to 4K.

Unfortunately though, I'm having the absolute worst time trying to figure out phasing, among other things, with the Datapath Vision E1s.

I ended up getting the following:

  • Datapath Vision E1s from eBay with no bracket
  • A 3D-printed high-profile bracket from Shapeways
  • A Voultar Double Penetration SD Datapath E1/E1S from unmaker64 on Tindie
  • A short, gold connector USB Mini cable plugged into the back of my PC
  • DVI-I Male to Male Gender Changer Gold Plated with 4 Thumb Bolts

  • The Double P is connected to the Datapath Vision E1s using the DVI-I to DVI-I gender changer
  • I've connected my RGB-modded SNES Jr. from RetroFixes (Has the THS7374 RGB amp + Ghosting Fix C11 replacement and S-Video upgrade; Has a jumper for 75ohm or TTL output.) to the Double P via a CSync SCART cable I got back in 2016 on eBay from retro_console_accessories
  • A 3.5mm to RCA cable from the Double P to my Magewell's DSUB to RCA adapter (to capture audio; this was way better than using line-in to my ASRock mobo which had too much noise/crackling)
  • A gold-plated USB mini 1.5ft. cable from the Double P to the USB 3.0 slot in the back of my PC to power it

I managed to get the Vision window formatted correctly for 256x224, and all the numbers are good, but phase is proving to be an enormous pain, even with the LPF switch flicked on on the Double P.

Every value for phase produces some noticeable artifacts/flickery pixels in the image and around some of the 240p Test Suite's text. While some of the phase values are better than others and make the checkerboard pattern look great, you can still make out pixel flickering on the 240p Test Suite menu and some games, as well as pixel overshoot, especially if you zoom into the window using the Windows magnifier.

On top of all of that, I've been informed from some test footage I took that, despite RetroFixes supposedly replacing the C11 capacitor, I can see ghosting in my 4X scaled recorded footage of Super Mario World. I tested again with my unmodded SNES first model, and while phasing is still not perfect on any setting with this model, I don't see a ghosting issue as much.

Video of SMW with RGB-modded SNES Jr. where you can see ghosting: https://1drv.ms/v/s!ApUHztm-6jEsiJBN8oyzLCIFnUP-Ew?e=vSYVz4
Video of SMW with SNES model 1: https://1drv.ms/v/s!ApUHztm-6jEsiJBZX0ez097nlsMGBw?e=sBHfyv

I'm not entirely sure what I should do next, and am hoping for some guidance.

  • See if my Sync Strike will produce better results when hooked into the Datapath?
  • Buy a new CSync SCART cable? (Retro Access is sold out...)
  • Give up and pray Dejitter boards materialize again so I can just use my OSSC?
  • Ask RetroFixes why my SNES Jr. modded back in March is ghosting?


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:12 pm 



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Why don't you just connect the OSSC to the Datapath E1S? It supports all resolutions from the OSSC.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:16 pm 


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Not sure how I missed this thread until now since it's extremely relevant to my interests. Accurate capture struggle never ends. I have the famous GV-USB2 + E1S combo and audio capture card that RetroRGB recommended.

There are different definitions of what "accurate" means. I'm not saying I'm right and this is a multiple person job. In order from what I feel strongest about to most negotiable:

  • 8:7 is an abomination and vestige from early emulator days because fixing the ratio was hard to program.
  • Stock consoles only. RGB mod screws with the circuitry in a non-professional way and chains on other problems like more heat and EMI than normal. Is 1Chip actually the face of SNES when it has budget cutbacks and more audio and video glitches? I'm all for recording each SNES model. Digital audio mod more acceptable.
  • ADC to record in HDMI is wrong, as is using Analogue NT or any emulator for footage capture. Digital RGB or [shudder] 4:2:0 YCbCr is artificial and impossible to get from a real SNES even if you oscilloscoped the video processor. CRT Emudriver analog output is more acceptable. Some old Dell laptops have native S-Video. Lossy is how things were.
  • Ideally should record on oscilloscope which doesn't filter or alter the signal and completely preserves to regenerate on an arbitrary function generator. Compensating for 50 ohm scope is annoying but possible.
  • Record with no scaling, or at least integer so can be cleanly reversed. Use as little processing as possible. CRTs didn't have modern 3D comb filters.
  • Should record PAL too. Its use of alternating lines in theory gives more accurate colors than NTSC. 9600K color temperature for NTSC-J.
  • Should record every analog signal including RF. RF capture cards exist but I'd like to try recording to DVD in a VHS+DVD recorder.
  • RGB over SCART/JP-21 bundles all the video and audio wires together, which contributes more noise and crosstalk than separately over BNC. (But was how many played SNES so more not ideal than wrong.)
  • Is Voultar Double Penetration SD Datapath E1/E1S $70 for a $15 VGA splitter + $5 LPF with no documented cutoff frequency or electrical noise measurements? Splitting the input adds some noise no matter how you do it. Another device in the chain itself adds noise. Should send straight to capture card and accept the input lag.
  • I'm going to try S-Video separated into two separate RG-59 cables then put back together at the DIN. Should look cleaner for same reason as above.

I do think emulators have a purpose to provide reference points for hypothetical best video and therefore use as a base for signal to noise ratio.

I'm really sorry you have the visible artifacts and ghosting! Possible you have a device that doesn't properly terminate 75 ohm video. Maybe in 2016 retro_console_accessories cables weren't as good as now. They basically admit as much on their website.

The right phase, this is possible to auto calculate isn't it? Not saying easy but can find timing with oscilloscope or brute force.

DragonQuarter wrote:
Ask RetroFixes why my SNES Jr. modded back in March is ghosting?


This. You should be able to unscrew the SCART cap and look it over. See if any pins are shorted or capacitors loose or if it just doesn't look very well insulated. Same for console itself. Can't you order Dejitter boards on OSH Park for $9.50? Could in theory construct a non-mod cable that dejitters but easier said than done.

I bought JP-21 cable from wookieewin 2 years ago. Is legit and has at least 5 years of experience. Just sad SCART/JP-21 life that $35 + $5 shipping is fair price.

Does E1S actually take sync over luma/composite video versus csync or sync on green?


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:45 pm 


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paulb_nl wrote:
Why don't you just connect the OSSC to the Datapath E1S? It supports all resolutions from the OSSC.


E1s only has a single DVI-I port. Is there a good HDMI to DVI-I solution for the Datapath? Another challenge would be figuring out how to capture audio from the OSSC to my PC, as they're spaced pretty far apart in my room.

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
[*]Is Voultar Double Penetration SD Datapath E1/E1S $70 for a $15 VGA splitter + $5 LPF with no documented cutoff frequency or electrical noise measurements? Splitting the input adds some noise no matter how you do it. Another device in the chain itself adds noise. Should send straight to capture card and accept the input lag.


I'm honestly not sure, I was just looking for an ideal way to connect the SNES Jr.'s SCART to the Datapath's DVI-I, and the Voultar Double P is what was recommended. Gonna be a bummer if I spent $70 for nothing.

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
This. You should be able to unscrew the SCART cap and look it over. See if any pins are shorted or capacitors loose or if it just doesn't look very well insulated. Same for console itself. Can't you order Dejitter boards on OSH Park for $9.50? Could in theory construct a non-mod cable that dejitters but easier said than done.


I'll have to open it up and take a look, then. Are the OSH Park Dejitter boards up to date? I've got a buddy that can install the Dejitter mod in mine. But if I'm able to connect an OSSC to the Datapath somehow, I may not even need the Dejitter mod since I'd use the Datapath instead of my Magewell.

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
Possible you have a device that doesn't properly terminate 75 ohm video.


The RetroFixes site says this: "The newer THS7374 RGB amp design will be installed. Has a jumper for 75ohm or TTL output. The LPF is disabled (most common request)"

I didn't make any specific requests to RetroFixes on any of the above. Not honestly 100% sure what the differences between 75ohm or TTL output are, or which one should be enabled / which one I should care about. I also didn't specifically mention anything about LPF but I imagine it's off by default since I notice a huge improvement when the Double Penetration's LPF switch is flicked on.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:22 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
Posts: 336
DragonQuarter wrote:
E1s only has a single DVI-I port. Is there a good HDMI to DVI-I solution for the Datapath? Another challenge would be figuring out how to capture audio from the OSSC to my PC, as they're spaced pretty far apart in my room.


Not sure which one is good but I just use a simple HDMI to DVI adapter like this https://www.amazon.com/CableCreation-Ad ... 08DJ3CMS8/

For audio you could put an HDMI audio extractor near your pc


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:25 am 


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Joined: 21 Jun 2019
Posts: 159
Location: Atlanta, GA
DragonQuarter wrote:
NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
[*]Is Voultar Double Penetration SD Datapath E1/E1S $70 for a $15 VGA splitter + $5 LPF with no documented cutoff frequency or electrical noise measurements? Splitting the input adds some noise no matter how you do it. Another device in the chain itself adds noise. Should send straight to capture card and accept the input lag.


I'm honestly not sure, I was just looking for an ideal way to connect the SNES Jr.'s SCART to the Datapath's DVI-I, and the Voultar Double P is what was recommended. Gonna be a bummer if I spent $70 for nothing.


I mean, it breaks out SCART into DVI, which is what you want. LPF may be helpful. Just that I saw SCART2DVI adapter going for $50 and the PCB for Tinkerplunk's adapter for $22 but requires soldering: https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/psa2AORafor

I didn't see a SCART to DVI cable anywhere myself. I'm more about using what I have so would go SCART to BNC breakout -> + female/female couplers -> BNC breakout to DVI or VGA + adapter. I can confirm BNC breakout to VGA is bi-directional. If you have the SCART cable already, that would cost you under $20. PVM -> BNC breakout to DVI would work too but you're splitting the signal. I ordered a Nintendo VGA female + audio Multiout for $25, so all I need is $10-15 cable.

DragonQuarter wrote:
NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
This. You should be able to unscrew the SCART cap and look it over. See if any pins are shorted or capacitors loose or if it just doesn't look very well insulated. Same for console itself. Can't you order Dejitter boards on OSH Park for $9.50? Could in theory construct a non-mod cable that dejitters but easier said than done.


I'll have to open it up and take a look, then. Are the OSH Park Dejitter boards up to date? I've got a buddy that can install the Dejitter mod in mine. But if I'm able to connect an OSSC to the Datapath somehow, I may not even need the Dejitter mod since I'd use the Datapath instead of my Magewell.


I searched around and didn't see a more recent version. I guess people are waiting for Arthrimus to come back from break in case he sells a more recent version? Sorry if you explain in thread but I'm not sure why you're sending HDMI to the capture card when it also accepts RGB. Taking advantage of scaling settings and avoiding difficult configuration I could understand. And again, I would be surprised if E1S accepts sync over luma or composite video as sync. Guess I could try myself.

DragonQuarter wrote:
NewSchoolBoxer wrote:
Possible you have a device that doesn't properly terminate 75 ohm video.


The RetroFixes site says this: "The newer THS7374 RGB amp design will be installed. Has a jumper for 75ohm or TTL output. The LPF is disabled (most common request)"

I didn't make any specific requests to RetroFixes on any of the above. Not honestly 100% sure what the differences between 75ohm or TTL output are, or which one should be enabled / which one I should care about. I also didn't specifically mention anything about LPF but I imagine it's off by default since I notice a huge improvement when the Double Penetration's LPF switch is flicked on.


Not accusing anyone of making improper device or cable. Can check for yourself with basic circuit knowledge. Thing is, video cables need 75 ohm terminating resistors. Plugging R, G, B (not sync or audio) into a chip, you need a 75 ohm to ground resistor if it isn't already in the chain. PAL and 1Chip may use smaller values. What people do is, they read datasheets - like every sync stripper chip's - showing how to wire it but datasheets leave out 75 ohm resistors. I guess they assume we're video pros.

Tim "viletim" W. of NESRGB mod fame explains this whole situation here: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55948
Only datasheet I've seen that includes them is for the AD725 on page 12: https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD725.pdf
Tim's Multiout diagrams on his website also correctly show them.

But yeah, 75 ohm vs TTL sync is separate thing and cable makers tend to do correctly. Issue though if you use PAL SCART cable on NTSC SNES due to the cable having a resistor that NTSC console already has inside. Drops voltage too low.


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:47 am 



Joined: 15 Nov 2018
Posts: 25
Sorry to kind of butt in, but in the footage provided, I'm more bothered by the frame drops than anything else. Is the actual game like that?


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 Post subject: Re: Accurate & High-quality RGB SNES Captures: The Struggle
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:48 pm 


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Joined: 03 Jul 2016
Posts: 23
dojima wrote:
Sorry to kind of butt in, but in the footage provided, I'm more bothered by the frame drops than anything else. Is the actual game like that?


I appreciate all butting in in this thread! So I recorded that footage with FFV1 codec with framerate set to 60 in OBS. I'm assuming that issue is due to the SNES's weird 60.09Hz / 60.10Hz framerate? But I'm not sure how to fix that. Appreciate any feedback there, especially since my end goal is capturing SNES longplays, which = long video files.

I've ended up buying the HD Retrovision Component Cables to see if that would work out better for me. That way, I could connect my OSSC to the Datapath with HDMI to DVI, and I believe I already have an HDMI adapter that breaks out RCA, which I can plug into my Magewell to capture audio. I would like to get a Component to SCART adapter to try with the Double P again, but I'm not sure what a good adapter would be. Appreciate any help here.

Unfortunately, CSync SCART cables are sold out everywhere, so I can't try getting a replacement SCART cable. There is a Sync on Luma in stock at Insurrection Industries, but as I understand it, that wouldn't be the most versatile cable for me, right? Like, I know it'd work with the OSSC, but if I wanted to connect to PVM as well...?

So my current concerns are:

- Trying Component to OSSC to Datapath and see if that works best for me, and see if the Ghosting issues continue
- Looking into a replacement CSync SCART cable to see if that'd be an improvement, too
- I have no circuitry knowledge, so if I were to open up my SNES Jr., I don't know what I'd need to look for to figure out if the C11 cap is faulty or something


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