Component vs Scart

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fernan1234
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by fernan1234 »

Odolwa wrote:How do you order from Retro-Access? I've emailed, and been ignored so many times. There's no order button, just something that says "Available for order TBD" and you can't click on it.
That shows only for their SCART cables (which is almost everything listed individually) because they had a delay on SCART heads, but you can order custom non-SCART cables here: https://retro-access.com/collections/custom-cables
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kitty666cats
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by kitty666cats »

Isn’t SCART technically capable of passing up to 720p/1080i (and maybe also 1080p? Probably not) via RGBS “csync” or RGsB sync on green, but it’s just a incredibly uncommon use-case and few TVs/devices actually support such a thing? Could be remembering wrong. Obviously plenty of gear with VGA RCA or BNC connectors much more commonly supports the exact same signals at said resolutions/frequencies & it just so happens SCART is widely delegated to standard definition?

SCART is treated as some mythical entity showered with strong opinions but it’s really quite simple! It’s a silly looking goof-block that is mostly bidirectional with the exception of sync (unless a switch is integrated into the connector) :P
Last edited by kitty666cats on Thu May 20, 2021 2:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
fernan1234
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by fernan1234 »

kitty666cats wrote:Isn’t SCART technically capable of passing up to 720p/1080i (and maybe also 1080p? Probably not) via RGBS “csync” or RGsB sync on green, but it’s just a incredibly uncommon use-case and few TVs/devices actually support such a thing? Could be remembering wrong. Obviously plenty of gear with VGA or BNC connectors much more commonly supports the exact same signals at said resolutions/frequencies & it just so happens SCART is widely delegated to standard definition?
Yeah, after all metal pins are just metal pins. But there are better metal pin configs :)
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TooBeaucoup
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by TooBeaucoup »

Odolwa wrote:

Right now RA actually has orders available for such custom cables. They've had them open for maybe over a week now, so it's a great time to get them in while they wait for their SCART connectors and can focus only on these.

Also this shows that other good quality cable makers can step in to offer more alternative, non-SCART RGB options.
How do you order from Retro-Access? I've emailed, and been ignored so many times. There's no order button, just something that says "Available for order TBD" and you can't click on it.
When their site first opened a couple years back, it was fairly easy to just go order cables like a normal website, but thanks to shortages over the last year, they have been having a lot more trouble filling orders. So if you follow them on Twitter, they'll usually Tweet out a few days in advance when they have finally gotten their stock of materials and they'll announce a date that their site will be open for orders. It's pretty limited, though, and usually you only have an hour or two to order before they're out of stock.
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Odolwa
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by Odolwa »

What would you do for DSub-15 switchers? Do they even exist?
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Odolwa
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by Odolwa »

Guspaz wrote:
Odolwa wrote:When you guys say that people don’t have to worry about voltage with component cables, is it even that big of a deal, since everybody just uses GScartSWs, that 10 port Axun one that does JP21 and scart, or the scart switchers from Otaku Games? Voltage shouldn’t even be a thing that people worry about at all, because the majority of scart switchers that people use now are protected against it anyway.
The gscartsw, as far as I know, and some other SCART switches, does not support TTL sync input. Or at least they're not designed for it and it may cause long-term damage. Even if they can successfully normalize everything via sync-on-green support and sync regeneration, you may be protecting your downstream devices from TTL voltage levels by slowly destroying your SCART switch. And it's not a cheap switch.
So overtime, using scart is killing our switchers and consoles?
eightbitminiboss
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by eightbitminiboss »

Odolwa wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
Odolwa wrote:When you guys say that people don’t have to worry about voltage with component cables, is it even that big of a deal, since everybody just uses GScartSWs, that 10 port Axun one that does JP21 and scart, or the scart switchers from Otaku Games? Voltage shouldn’t even be a thing that people worry about at all, because the majority of scart switchers that people use now are protected against it anyway.
The gscartsw, as far as I know, and some other SCART switches, does not support TTL sync input. Or at least they're not designed for it and it may cause long-term damage. Even if they can successfully normalize everything via sync-on-green support and sync regeneration, you may be protecting your downstream devices from TTL voltage levels by slowly destroying your SCART switch. And it's not a cheap switch.
So overtime, using scart is killing our switchers and consoles?
No, SCART isn't doing that inherently. It's the TTL sync that is doing it. You'd hit the same problem if you were using a different interconnect, if the receiving part is not spec'd to safely handle the high voltage, the part will fail over time.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by maxtherabbit »

Odolwa wrote:What would you do for DSub-15 switchers? Do they even exist?
Absolutely. Extron made a ton of different ones that are top quality and now available for cheap on the secondary market
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matt
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by matt »

kitty666cats wrote:Isn’t SCART technically capable of passing up to 720p/1080i (and maybe also 1080p? Probably not) via RGBS “csync” or RGsB sync on green, but it’s just a incredibly uncommon use-case and few TVs/devices actually support such a thing? Could be remembering wrong. Obviously plenty of gear with VGA RCA or BNC connectors much more commonly supports the exact same signals at said resolutions/frequencies & it just so happens SCART is widely delegated to standard definition?

SCART is treated as some mythical entity showered with strong opinions but it’s really quite simple! It’s a silly looking goof-block that is mostly bidirectional with the exception of sync (unless a switch is integrated into the connector) :P
The SCART standard does not support anything greater than 15khz because, by design, it's meant to be tied to composite video.

You could, of course, run whatever signal you want through a SCART connector, but it would be out of spec (just like TTL Csync would be).
EnragedWhale
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by EnragedWhale »

I think a lot of people are overthinking this. Mike Chi has been recommending component to people buying new cables on Twitter as it’s simple, gives great results and the available cables are mostly good quality. This is very sensible advice IMO, especially for the US.

However, if you have a Scart setup that works and you are happy with the results then there is zero need to change.

And the retrotink 5X is hardly the first device to be at risk from TTL level sync. GscartSW’s for example seem particularly delicate.
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Odolwa
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by Odolwa »

EnragedWhale wrote:I think a lot of people are overthinking this. Mike Chi has been recommending component to people buying new cables on Twitter as it’s simple, gives great results and the available cables are mostly good quality. This is very sensible advice IMO, especially for the US.

However, if you have a Scart setup that works and you are happy with the results then there is zero need to change.

And the retrotink 5X is hardly the first device to be at risk from TTL level sync. GscartSW’s for example seem particularly delicate.
But Mike Chi was the one who said:
mikechi2 wrote:Properly done, SCART in RGB is the highest theoretical quality for standard def native RGB consoles.
jd213
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by jd213 »

I kinda wish RGBS over RCA jacks had caught on more, I have a couple devices that use it, but they're of questionable quality voltage-wise (Timeharvest CBOX supergun, and a PCE/TG16 extension port adapter from Yahoo Auctions).

But 15khz over DE-15/VGA would probably be the most convenient if I were in charge, with a disclaimer that it won't work as-is on PC CRTs (not that too many people would try nowadays).
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kitty666cats
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by kitty666cats »

matt wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:Isn’t SCART technically capable of passing up to 720p/1080i (and maybe also 1080p? Probably not) via RGBS “csync” or RGsB sync on green, but it’s just a incredibly uncommon use-case and few TVs/devices actually support such a thing? Could be remembering wrong. Obviously plenty of gear with VGA RCA or BNC connectors much more commonly supports the exact same signals at said resolutions/frequencies & it just so happens SCART is widely delegated to standard definition?

SCART is treated as some mythical entity showered with strong opinions but it’s really quite simple! It’s a silly looking goof-block that is mostly bidirectional with the exception of sync (unless a switch is integrated into the connector) :P
The SCART standard does not support anything greater than 15khz because, by design, it's meant to be tied to composite video.

You could, of course, run whatever signal you want through a SCART connector, but it would be out of spec (just like TTL Csync would be).
Mm, yeah - obviously RGB with sync on composite video must be constricted to 15kHz-only (unless the source device has several different output modes, PS2/3 for instance), but I forget if that is also the same case if the sync is on luma…? Is luma sync also ‘tied’ to only 15kHz? TBH I don’t really know of anything that implements luma sync aside from specialty video game cables!
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Gara
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by Gara »

HD Retrovision Component cables are just getting a push from a few big names. Their reasons seem to be rooted in that people with crappy Scart cables keep going to them with problems. People blame their devices, mod work, etc before they will blame an Aliexpress $6 special or a custom cable from some random website. Everyone adopting a single standard would be quite beneficial to a lot of them.


Why some people are so desperate to buy into it is a bit confusing. Simplicity is beauty? It's an appealing option if you've only known poor quality Scart cables. There is an argument being put forth that the "sophisticated filtration circuitry" of the HD Retrovision cables is producing a superior result, but I don't see that backed up by anything solid.


I'd personally find it very restrictive if I had to switch to an all HD Retrovision setup. No customization and limiting myself to a one size fits all cable would be dreadful. Why add an unnecessary transcoding process and limit myself.

240p/480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i all work fine through my RGB Scart setup. YPbPr carrying those same resolutions through Scart also works fine on my setup.
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Guspaz
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by Guspaz »

Is it unecessary transcoding? If you're sending your signal to anything but a PVM or other RGB monitor, it's probably converting the signal to YCbCr/YPbPr anyway. AFAIK nearly all scalers do.

As for the HDRV cables, there's more than just filtration, they're fully coax (avoiding interference and crosstalk issues) and do some extra work to bring the signal from their target consoles into spec, with the "brightness switch" on the cables covering the variation you find between different models/units of the same console. This is something you can also solve on scalers by using per-device profiles that have different gain for each console, but not all scalers let you do that, so you might just end up with some consoles being brighter than others if you're using RGB cables. Of course, the HDRV cables can't fully account for *all* the variation either (particularly with the SNES cable where many consoles are supported without adapters that can themselves adjust the signal), so this certainly isn't a perfect solution.
fernan1234
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by fernan1234 »

Guspaz wrote:Is it unecessary transcoding? If you're sending your signal to anything but a PVM or other RGB monitor, it's probably converting the signal to YCbCr/YPbPr anyway. AFAIK nearly all scalers do.
Doesn't the OSSC output full range RGB?
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Guspaz
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by Guspaz »

fernan1234 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:Is it unecessary transcoding? If you're sending your signal to anything but a PVM or other RGB monitor, it's probably converting the signal to YCbCr/YPbPr anyway. AFAIK nearly all scalers do.
Doesn't the OSSC output full range RGB?
Yes, so AFAIK it's doing two conversions: RGB to YCbCr, and then YCbCr to RGB. You can avoid that second conversion since it also supports 4:4:4 YCbCr output. But then your display is probably going to need to get it back to RGB at some point anyhow. I could be wrong about it doing the processing in YCbCr. The RetroTINK and Framemeister definitely do.
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NoAffinity
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by NoAffinity »

jd213 wrote:I kinda wish RGBS over RCA jacks had caught on more, I have a couple devices that use it, but they're of questionable quality voltage-wise (Timeharvest CBOX supergun, and a PCE/TG16 extension port adapter from Yahoo Auctions).

But 15khz over DE-15/VGA would probably be the most convenient if I were in charge, with a disclaimer that it won't work as-is on PC CRTs (not that too many people would try nowadays).
I have this pce adapter and ability to do rgbs via rca to component conversion. The rca outs do not provide a good synced signal however, whereas a cheap scart cable works with the din out, no problem. Kinda off subject, but chiming in on the larger discussion which seems to be morphing into best signal transmission/quality options.

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SCARTicus
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by SCARTicus »

Gara wrote:...Why some people are so desperate to buy into it is a bit confusing. Simplicity is beauty?...
Yes, simplicity is the main appeal.

RAD2x cables appeal to me for the same reason. HDMI is easier than RGB, YPbPr is easier than RGB, and they are both formats that existed in the United States, so we have easy access to cheap equipment for routing and processing these signals. You don't have to order your switcher from Taiwan or Poland and wait weeks for everything. Instead you can use the switcher that you found at Goodwill for $2 and it will probably work just fine. Good RCA and HDMI cables are cheap and abundant. Some people I know do not even own scalers. They run everything straight to a CRT or LCD television. YPbPr is ideal for that that kind of setup on a CRT, and HDMI at 480p is on an LCD.

RGB and SCART just aren't all that and a bag of potato chips, amigos. We in North America use it because the Europeans are the ones who made us aware of the fact that our consoles output a better-than-YC signal, and they use RGB-SCART. They showed us the stuff that they use, and that stuff makes sense for them. They have RGB-SCART televisions over there, and other consumer electronics that support RGB-SCART. A European individual can just buy a name brand SCART patch cable at the store, and they may have several already at home from a lifetime of using electronics. We in NA do not have any of that going for us with SCART.

On a different note, the OSSC will in fact output YCbCr 4:4:4 over HDMI, so you can use it with a component video input and never have the signal enter the RGB colorspace.
ldeveraux
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by ldeveraux »

SCARTicus wrote:
Gara wrote:...Why some people are so desperate to buy into it is a bit confusing. Simplicity is beauty?...
Yes, simplicity is the main appeal.

RAD2x cables appeal to me for the same reason. HDMI is easier than RGB, YPbPr is easier than RGB, and they are both formats that existed in the United States, so we have easy access to cheap equipment for routing and processing these signals. You don't have to order your switcher from Taiwan or Poland and wait weeks for everything. Instead you can use the switcher that you found at Goodwill for $2 and it will probably work just fine. Good RCA and HDMI cables are cheap and abundant. Some people I know do not even own scalers. They run everything straight to a CRT or LCD television. YPbPr is ideal for that that kind of setup on a CRT, and HDMI at 480p is on an LCD.

RGB and SCART just aren't all that and a bag of potato chips, amigos. We in North America use it because the Europeans are the ones who made us aware of the fact that our consoles output a better-than-YC signal, and they use RGB-SCART. They showed us the stuff that they use, and that stuff makes sense for them. They have RGB-SCART televisions over there, and other consumer electronics that support RGB-SCART. A European individual can just buy a name brand SCART patch cable at the store, and they may have several already at home from a lifetime of using electronics. We in NA do not have any of that going for us with SCART.

On a different note, the OSSC will in fact output YCbCr 4:4:4 over HDMI, so you can use it with a component video input and never have the signal enter the RGB colorspace.
As best I can tell, there are RAD2x cables for 4 consoles. Maybe the Genesis cable works on other systems I don't know, but that's a slim set of consoles. SCART termination is certainly easier to find for even the lesser known consoles. Also, good quality 8-port HDMI switchers are rare/expensive, and I have ~14 consoles, so 2x gscartsw (or in my case 3x Bandridges) are much easier. I wish I could go all HDMI, but it still seems cost prohibitive atm.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by maxtherabbit »

Guspaz wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Guspaz wrote:Is it unecessary transcoding? If you're sending your signal to anything but a PVM or other RGB monitor, it's probably converting the signal to YCbCr/YPbPr anyway. AFAIK nearly all scalers do.
Doesn't the OSSC output full range RGB?
Yes, so AFAIK it's doing two conversions: RGB to YCbCr, and then YCbCr to RGB. You can avoid that second conversion since it also supports 4:4:4 YCbCr output. But then your display is probably going to need to get it back to RGB at some point anyhow. I could be wrong about it doing the processing in YCbCr. The RetroTINK and Framemeister definitely do.
the TVP7002 can do either RGB 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:4:4, no conversions required
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by darcagn »

kitty666cats wrote:Mm, yeah - obviously RGB with sync on composite video must be constricted to 15kHz-only (unless the source device has several different output modes, PS2/3 for instance), but I forget if that is also the same case if the sync is on luma…? Is luma sync also ‘tied’ to only 15kHz? TBH I don’t really know of anything that implements luma sync aside from specialty video game cables!
S-video is luma + chroma, with sync being carried on the luma. So everything S-video is "sync on luma."
(The reason these consoles carry luma in the first place is to support S-video output)
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Odolwa
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by Odolwa »

I'm not a fan of HDMI mods. Nevermind the high prices, that's just one factor. The fact is, HDMI didn't exist in those days, and the consoles were never meant to output with it. RGB and YPbPr are the true analog picture qualities of these retro consoles and the way they were meant to look, and that includes the N64 which didn't have RGB, but could've had it if Nintendo included it.

For the HD RetroVision cables, the SNES cables can be used on NES, SNES, N64, and Pal GameCubes. They didn't make specific cables for each console, it's a one-size-fits-all solution for Nintendo. The same goes for the RGB scart cables made by Retro Gaming Cables from the UK or Retro Access. For NES, SNES, and RGB modded N64s, there's just one CSync cable available that works fine for all of them, and they both make separate CSync cables for Pal GameCubes.
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Guspaz
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by Guspaz »

maxtherabbit wrote:the TVP7002 can do either RGB 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:4:4, no conversions required
That's just the analog front-end, the question is what the OSSC uses for internal processing. If it does the processing in YCbCr like the Framemeister and RetroTINK products do, then the signal is going to get converted from RGB to YCbCr.
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SCARTicus
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by SCARTicus »

ldeveraux wrote:
SCARTicus wrote:
Gara wrote:...Why some people are so desperate to buy into it is a bit confusing. Simplicity is beauty?...
Yes, simplicity is the main appeal.

RAD2x cables appeal to me for the same reason. HDMI is easier than RGB, YPbPr is easier than RGB, and they are both formats that existed in the United States, so we have easy access to cheap equipment for routing and processing these signals. You don't have to order your switcher from Taiwan or Poland and wait weeks for everything. Instead you can use the switcher that you found at Goodwill for $2 and it will probably work just fine. Good RCA and HDMI cables are cheap and abundant. Some people I know do not even own scalers. They run everything straight to a CRT or LCD television. YPbPr is ideal for that that kind of setup on a CRT, and HDMI at 480p is on an LCD.

RGB and SCART just aren't all that and a bag of potato chips, amigos. We in North America use it because the Europeans are the ones who made us aware of the fact that our consoles output a better-than-YC signal, and they use RGB-SCART. They showed us the stuff that they use, and that stuff makes sense for them. They have RGB-SCART televisions over there, and other consumer electronics that support RGB-SCART. A European individual can just buy a name brand SCART patch cable at the store, and they may have several already at home from a lifetime of using electronics. We in NA do not have any of that going for us with SCART.

On a different note, the OSSC will in fact output YCbCr 4:4:4 over HDMI, so you can use it with a component video input and never have the signal enter the RGB colorspace.
As best I can tell, there are RAD2x cables for 4 consoles. Maybe the Genesis cable works on other systems I don't know, but that's a slim set of consoles. SCART termination is certainly easier to find for even the lesser known consoles. Also, good quality 8-port HDMI switchers are rare/expensive, and I have ~14 consoles, so 2x gscartsw (or in my case 3x Bandridges) are much easier. I wish I could go all HDMI, but it still seems cost prohibitive atm.
You can use Rad2X with 8 consoles if you include Gamecube and 64. There are adapters to use the Genesis cable with NeoGeo consoles and PCE-Duos. If the console does not output RGB then the Rad2X takes the composite signal. RGB is used when available of course. And anything PS3 or newer will use HDMI.
Odolwa, no one is talking about HDMI mods, Rad2X is an upscaling AD-conversion cable.
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by strayan »

Odolwa wrote:I'm not a fan of HDMI mods. Nevermind the high prices, that's just one factor. The fact is, HDMI didn't exist in those days, and the consoles were never meant to output with it. RGB and YPbPr are the true analog picture qualities of these retro consoles and the way they were meant to look, and that includes the N64 which didn't have RGB, but could've had it if Nintendo included it.
HDMI = RGB. You are getting confused between plugs and the signals being transmitted over them again.
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by ldeveraux »

SCARTicus wrote:You can use Rad2X with 8 consoles if you include Gamecube and 64. There are adapters to use the Genesis cable with NeoGeo consoles and PCE-Duos. If the console does not output RGB then the Rad2X takes the composite signal. RGB is used when available of course. And anything PS3 or newer will use HDMI.
Odolwa, no one is talking about HDMI mods, Rad2X is an upscaling AD-conversion cable.
But not a NES. So yeah...
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by maxtherabbit »

Guspaz wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:the TVP7002 can do either RGB 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:4:4, no conversions required
That's just the analog front-end, the question is what the OSSC uses for internal processing. If it does the processing in YCbCr like the Framemeister and RetroTINK products do, then the signal is going to get converted from RGB to YCbCr.
Yeah I know, but since it's a line multiplier that does all the processing on an FPGA running bespoke code, I'd be shocked if it was performing colourspace conversion after digitization
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matt
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by matt »

darcagn wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:Mm, yeah - obviously RGB with sync on composite video must be constricted to 15kHz-only (unless the source device has several different output modes, PS2/3 for instance), but I forget if that is also the same case if the sync is on luma…? Is luma sync also ‘tied’ to only 15kHz? TBH I don’t really know of anything that implements luma sync aside from specialty video game cables!
S-video is luma + chroma, with sync being carried on the luma. So everything S-video is "sync on luma."
(The reason these consoles carry luma in the first place is to support S-video output)
And, if you want to take it further, component video is also "sync on luma", since the Y signal is identical for both standards. So yes, sync on luma has been used in the consumer market for resolutions up to 1080p.
nmalinoski
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Re: Component vs Scart

Post by nmalinoski »

matt wrote:The SCART standard does not support anything greater than 15khz because, by design, it's meant to be tied to composite video.
Yes and no? The SCART spec allows for any of composite video, luma from YC, or clean composite sync on the sync pin, and either composite video or clean composite sync when using RGB.

I think the reason you most often see composite video as sync for RGB over SCART is simply a way to provide some kind of fallback to avoid customer confusion when a display doesn't support RGB on its SCART input.
kitty666cats wrote:Mm, yeah - obviously RGB with sync on composite video must be constricted to 15kHz-only (unless the source device has several different output modes, PS2/3 for instance), but I forget if that is also the same case if the sync is on luma…? Is luma sync also ‘tied’ to only 15kHz? TBH I don’t really know of anything that implements luma sync aside from specialty video game cables!
I think whether or not luma is limited to 15kHz depends on the implementation.

If we look at the PS2 and PS3, I'd say yes. Y for YC and Y for YPbPr are on two separate pins (5 and 12 respectively), with Y for YPbPr sharing the same pin as G for RGB. As far as I know, all of composite video, YC, and RGB/YPbPr are active whenever possible; so, at 15kHz modes, all of those are simultaneously being output; however, when 31kHz+ video modes are active, both pins for composite video and YC (6, 5, and 7 respectively) get shut off, because neither of those specs supports >15kHz, but Y for YPbPr stays active.

If we look at the Xbox 360, however, the same pin (22) is used for Y for both YC and YPbPr (and G for RGB). This is possible because, like the Xbox and Dreamcast before it, and unlike the PlayStation 1/2/3, the Xbox 360's AV multiout only outputs specific types of video depending on which mode pins are bridged by the inserted cable.
Odolwa wrote:I'm not a fan of HDMI mods. Nevermind the high prices, that's just one factor. The fact is, HDMI didn't exist in those days, and the consoles were never meant to output with it. RGB and YPbPr are the true analog picture qualities of these retro consoles and the way they were meant to look, and that includes the N64 which didn't have RGB, but could've had it if Nintendo included it.
I can buy this argument for composite video, due to the way the smearing caused by the encoding process can blend colors and create transparency effects; and I could possibly buy the same argument for S-Video as well, if the colors come out different compared to RGB/YPbPr; but RGB and YPbPr are not notably distinguishable from their digital counterparts that those consoles use internally and are made available by HDMI mods.
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