Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

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Odolwa
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Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

What is the best way to capture VHS footage using an S-Video VCR?
Guile
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guile »

Odolwa wrote:What is the best way to capture VHS footage using an S-Video VCR?
You can use a scaler that takes s-video and output 480p to a capture card. There are devices like the retrotink2x or dvdo iscan units that take s-video.

I just transferred an old tape and my vcr only had composite but it was fine for me.
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Guspaz
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

This thread covered it before:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67567

The consensus was that the RT2X was a poor choice because it couldn't handle the poor quality sync from VHS tapes, though it was suggested that the RT2X Pro Multiformat might do a better job at it.

The RT5X is pretty good at it, as Mike demonstrated it being used on some low quality VHS tapes without dropping sync. It will also handle the deinterlacing, though if you're capturing, that may not be critical since you can capture 480i and deinterlace in post.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

The iScan Pros are so expensive. Fudoh mentioned in the the link Guspaz gave that they cost $60 on ebay, but I don't see any that are under 200, and the ones that do HDMI are even more expensive. Plus, they're huge devices. Guspaz, can you show me where Mike demonstrated the 5X on VHS tapes?
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

He showed it maintaining sync while playing and fast-forwarding a TopGun VHS here: https://twitter.com/retrotink2/status/1 ... 1500687368
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

I asked Mike from his ebay page which one he would recommend, and he said the 5X, because it won't drop on bad quality tapes.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Would the Retrotink5X be able to take in 480p inputs using progressive scan the way an OSSC could? I ask, because if it can't, I wouldn't have any use for it beyond capturing VHS footage, and for $275 I wouldn't want to buy it just for that one purpose.
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Guspaz
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

It can handle input at 240p, 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. It can output at 240p (downscaling), 480p, 720p, 768p, 1080p, 1200p, and 1440p.

240p can be multiplied by up to 6x. 480i/480p can be multiplied by up to 3x. 720p and 1080i input can only be passthrough, and are chroma limited. 480i can be deinterlaced with the full suite (including motion adaptive), but 1080i can only be bob deinterlaced.

You can get a list of the supported features on the website: https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/5x-pro

You can also get more details in the user manual: https://36c4ce24-ea9e-4fcf-85dd-62475fa ... 8707a4.pdf
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layzee
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by layzee »

Also interested in capturing some of my old Japanese retro gaming VHS tapes. Have done some reading and it seems a bit complicated so not sure which direction to take.

Is there a better more direct VHS-to-PC option or should I use this RetroTINK (I guess running my retro consoles on a modern TV is a good bonus feature)?

With regards to VHS regions, if I want to record Japanese VHS tapes, should I get a multi-region/system VCR? Or in case of compatibility problems, stay on the safe side and get a Japanese VCR?
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Galgomite »

I captured several very poor quality tapes using retrotink 2x, a cheap hdmi to usb device, and OBS. The retrotink 2X did fine— I don’t recall any footage being lost to sync issues.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

My one concern with the RT5X, which I shared with Guile in a pm, is that it would be far outclassed by the new OSSC that's coming out, and that because of this, it would serve little purpose other than transferring VHS footage onto a PC. It's $275, so if my one use for it would be for VHS tapes, I'd have to pass on it. Mike from Retrotink recommended the 5X to me on ebay, and said that it is the best when it comes to dealing with sync issues from poor quality VHS tapes, but it's too expensive for just VHS.
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Guspaz
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

Is there any additional functionality that the OSSC Pro is going to do that you need? Otherwise, why not just use the RT5X for all your scaling needs?
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Galgomite »

You can always use hardware for the duration of your project and resell it.
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FinalBaton
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by FinalBaton »

I'm sure he's not the most perfectionist/knowledgeable when it comes to this, but the dude at Technology Connections youtube channel shared a cheap setup that seems to provide very nce result. he had one of those cheap composite to hdmi scalers I think, which for games are crap but for video they seem fine. That method is cheap, and you don't have to mess with deinteracing options. (seems it's stretched to 16:9 though, but you can correct that in post). you won't sink cost into this method which is it's advantage. his captures shown in his video look very very clean and vibrant to me, but is it THE most perfect capture? probably not. the comb filter in that cheap scaler looks pretty good at elinating dot crawl, so I wouldn't worry about using composite instead of S-video.

Alternatively you could capture in 480i (or 480p) and scale via software in VirtualDub.
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orange808
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by orange808 »

Like almost everything else, doing it right isn't cheap. If it doesn't matter enough to spend, buy some Chinese stuff. Get a cheap composite to HDMI dongle box and use a USB capture box. You'll get a moving image and sound thing. That should get you something on screen. If you were wondering how people were getting it done on the cheap, they are not.
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by darcagn »

Odolwa wrote:It's $275, so if my one use for it would be for VHS tapes, I'd have to pass on it. Mike from Retrotink recommended the 5X to me on ebay, and said that it is the best when it comes to dealing with sync issues from poor quality VHS tapes, but it's too expensive for just VHS.

It was only $275 for the first round that has already passed. It's $300 (before shipping) going forward.

I agree this might be an overkill solution for this issue.
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by NJRoadfan »

layzee wrote:With regards to VHS regions, if I want to record Japanese VHS tapes, should I get a multi-region/system VCR? Or in case of compatibility problems, stay on the safe side and get a Japanese VCR?
NTSC decks are best for NTSC tapes. The higher end recommended VCRs all have onboard TBC and noise reduction circuits too. Just be aware that decks from North America and Japan are going to require a step-down power transformer. Unfortunately, many multi-system VCRs are pretty crappy in both build construction and video output quality.

I too am interested in the RT5X for VHS archiving work, but its a no-go without 480i pass-thru. That likely could be added in a firmware update. For strictly viewing tapes, its likely a fine albeit expensive choice. The RT5X adds analog inputs that are missing from modern 4K TVs.

Right now analog video capture workflows are best done with a high-end SVHS VCR, an external full frame TBC (to keep a capture card happy with continuous sync), and a good capture card.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Guspaz wrote:Is there any additional functionality that the OSSC Pro is going to do that you need? Otherwise, why not just use the RT5X for all your scaling needs?
I prefer the features of the OSSC. Plus, the 480i is kind of important to me. I wish he could make a Retrotink that’s just for VHS Capture and takes S-Video like my VCR uses.
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

480i output? Because the RT5X supports 480i input, it's kind of its strongest feature, with the deinterlacing.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Guspaz wrote:480i output? Because the RT5X supports 480i input, it's kind of its strongest feature, with the deinterlacing.
Would it be good for the PS2, and have fast changes between 240p and 480i for games that do that in menus and stuff? Is the color range as good as the OSSC?
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Guspaz
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

The RT5X in triple buffered mode handles 240p/480i switches instantly, without dropping the sync/image at all (the TV won't go black to resync like with the OSSC), which I don't think any other scaler available today (that can properly process both 240p and 480i) can do. Neither the current OSSC or Framemeister can do that. The 480i is deinterlaced with the motion-adaptive deinterlacer. The PS2 is like the ideal scenario for the RT5X since it handles it better than pretty much anything else available today.

The colour *range* is the same as the OSSC (like, full), though the way colour sampling resolution is handled is different, with the RT5X oversampling the input signal but subsampling the output signal after it has been scaled. So it shouldn't be a noticeable difference at a normal viewing distance.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

That's great to hear. It seems like the 5X is a very good substitute/competition for the OSSC Pro then. What does the OSSC Pro have that the 5X doesn't? The fact that the 5X can transfer S-Video VHS onto a PC very well, which I don't think the new OSSC will be able to do, is one thing; but what else?
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Guspaz »

The OSSC Pro has a much more powerful FPGA (it will cost a lot more than the RT5X), and is more sort of DIY. It's modular to a degree (composite and s-video inputs are not included and require an expansion module), and will have a very large number of configurable options. Using its framebuffer it will allow things like rotation and custom zooming and such. The OSSC Pro also has more some additional inputs (HDMI and VGA input and a more flexible SCART input).

The RT5X approach is to be as much "it just works" as possible, to make it as easy as possible to get really good output, while the OSSC Pro will be tweakable to an extreme degree to dial in exactly what you want.

The OSSC Pro will probably be able to do VHS with the appropriate settings and the expansion module, but it's going to cost a lot more doing it.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

It might be worth the extra money, because with custom zooming and vertical/horizontal positioning, you can enlarge and position the image to your exact liking, whereas with the Retrotink 5X, it’s more of a gamble as to whether it will position right on your screen, and you can’t change the positioning or zoom. Plus, I hate the idea of losing pixels.

https://youtu.be/nwNrqIjxBaA?t=453

If the new OSSC does just as well with VHS as the Retrotink 5X does, then I'd rather just wait and get it instead.
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by FinalBaton »

unless you need the upscaling to be done on the fly for streaming, you could just do it in post and that would save you from buying an upscaler.

only other thing to get would be a TBC but I bet your SVHS deck has one built-in. just plug that in your capture card and you're good to go.
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

FinalBaton wrote:unless you need the upscaling to be done on the fly for streaming, you could just do it in post and that would save you from buying an upscaler.

only other thing to get would be a TBC but I bet your SVHS deck has one built-in. just plug that in your capture card and you're good to go.
My capture device just takes HDMI. The OSSC is a line doubler, not an upscaler.
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Fudoh »

The OSSC is a line doubler, not an upscaler.
if anything and if you have to follow these newly introduced nomenclature, then the OSSC is a line multiplier.

The bullshit classification that EV presented in his recent video is just plain out wrong and misleading, if you take into account the history of video processors and the fact there are hundreds of machines that are technically limited to doubling, but do this with way more sophisticated deinterlacing than a simple bob'ing device like the a OSSC.

The classic use of the terms means that a line doubler takes a 15khz input and outputs a 31khz signal, hence doubling the lines of each field to create a full 31khz frame from it. It says nothing about the method used for doing this. A scaler is any machine that outputs a higher resolution from a low-res source and it doesn't matter if the scaling is limited to integer factors or not. The OSSC of course is a scaler - with some limitations, yes, but still a scaler.
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by FinalBaton »

oh exCUSE me OP. lmao

just trying to help, and what do I get
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Odolwa
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

Fudoh wrote:
The OSSC is a line doubler, not an upscaler.
if anything and if you have to follow these newly introduced nomenclature, then the OSSC is a line multiplier.

The bullshit classification that EV presented in his recent video is just plain out wrong and misleading, if you take into account the history of video processors and the fact there are hundreds of machines that are technically limited to doubling, but do this with way more sophisticated deinterlacing than a simple bob'ing device like the a OSSC.

The classic use of the terms means that a line doubler takes a 15khz input and outputs a 31khz signal, hence doubling the lines of each field to create a full 31khz frame from it. It says nothing about the method used for doing this. A scaler is any machine that outputs a higher resolution from a low-res source and it doesn't matter if the scaling is limited to integer factors or not. The OSSC of course is a scaler - with some limitations, yes, but still a scaler.
I see, so it is still considered an upscaler. What do you think the new OSSC will have over the Retrotink5X, apart from what I mentioned above about custom zooming and horizontal/vertical positioning?
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Re: Capturing S-Video VHS/VCR Footage

Post by Odolwa »

FinalBaton wrote:oh exCUSE me OP. lmao

just trying to help, and what do I get
I just wanted to get Fudoh to join the discussion, lol.
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