NES, N64, GC and Best Quality RGB.

[MrMFretwell]

Hi Guys,

Just thought I'd put together a thread following a lot of research I've done, because despite being equipped with a wealth of factual information, I'm still unclear on a few things regarding the best output for NES, N64 and GC.

Let me preface this by saying that I live in PAL territory (UK) but I am in the process of phasing all pretty much all pre HDMI era PAL stuff, and have already done so with the SNES. I'm done with the 50Hz 288p/576i garbage, and I've gotten into import gaming now and I'm working out what to do about the next set of consoles.

My setup is predominantly an RGB SCART setup, but I have an Extron Crosspoint 300, so Component etc. is an option for me. HDMI directly from these consoles however isn't as I'm looking to work with the Crosspoint and scalers along with CRTs that take BNC. So HDMI mods are off the table, I'm interested in RGB mods only, really. With all of these premodded consoles from a seller are my preference as I don't own any of them yet. I don't have a particular budget in mind either, I'm willing to spend in pursuit of quality, but I don't have thousands upon thousands to spend.

NES

I've done a lot of research into this and I'm lead to believe my best option for NES (and by extension Famicom/FMS games) is to go with a Famicom AV RGB Modded? I'm not a fan of the original style NES common to the USA and Europe, I don't care for how the cartridge is loaded into the system and would prefer a top loader, however I've heard a Famicom Top Loader and Famicom AV are different models as one supported composite out, while the other only did RF, is there anything I should be looking for to verify which one is which? I've learned that the Famicom has better sound quality for NES/FC games so I'm interested in that. I'll also need a cartridge adapter for NES games, does anyone have a link to a good reliable one?

Parts list (as far as I know):
- Famicom AV
- RGB Mod + Dejitter
- Famicom to NES Cartridge Adapter
- RGB SCART cable with CSYNC (required for Extron)
- SCART to BNC cable (passive), for connecting to Extron Crosspoint.
- Famicom Power Cable that is compatible with UK voltage standards or a stepdown transformer.

Please let me know if I'm missing anything here, I'd appreciate any help.

N64

With the N64 it seems like there are three main mod options for RGB. Tim Worthington's board, Borti's basic bypass amp and Borti's Advanced RGB Mod v2.1, I'm not clear on which mod nets the best result or if they are all about the same, I've only got price as a factor to go on. I understand that on this opinion may be subjective depending on needs, but any feedback would help.

Parts list (as far as I know):
- NTSC-U N64
- RGB Mod (one of the above three)
- UK Power Supply (I already own one of these and understand its compatible with NTSC-U N64)
- RGB SCART cable with CSYNC (required for Extron)
- SCART to BNC cable (passive) for connecting to Extron Crosspoint.

GameCube

With the GameCube it seems that the best option so far is the GCHD MKII used with Wii Component Cables for my case as the GC outputs ypbpr rather than SCART , I've read about the Carby and the Nintendo Component Cables and both seem to have drawbacks for me. Does the GameCube power supply work like the N64 one in which it can be used with a console of any region. Is there anything I'm missing about the GameCube here. I do intend on using a GameBoy Player as well, but I don't think this changes what I'm doing with the GameCube directly, I'm undecided whether to continue running my PAL GameCube specifically for GBP content via GBI and just keep the NTSC GC for GC games.

Parts list (as far as I know):
- NTSC-U GameCube
- GCHD MKII
- HD Retrovision Wii Component Cables
- Component to BNC Adapter Plugs 75 Ohms Impedance x3

Let me know if I have got anything wrong here, or other options I might not have considered and if anyone knows a vendor that is currently shipping to the UK offering these consoles, I'd very much appreciate a link for that. I realize this is a bit much in one go. But I don't want to clutter up the forums with tons of threads. I am very thankful for anyones time in helping with this. Many thanks and have a great day.

[Guspaz]

If you're RGB modding the NES, it doesn't matter what model it is, as far as video quality is concerned. If you don't like the front-loader (even with the blinking light win), then get a top-loader NES. Why mess around with the Famicom if you're primarily going to play NES cartridges? I can't see any advantage for a famicom AV over a toploader NES if they're RGB modded. They even share the same visual design. The Famicom AV has less of a low-pass filter, but that doesn't equate the better quality, since it also means that less pleasant high frequency stuff gets through.

The GCHD MKII can output RGB, so you can use SCART cables with it if you want. There's no image quality advantage (the GameCube is natively internally using chroma subsampled YCbCr anyhow, IIRC), but you can avoid the need for a separate conversion step if your whole setup is RGB SCART.

[Josh128]

If Gamecube component is an option for you, by all means use it. There is ZERO difference in video quality between official YPrPb cables, GCVideo/Open Source adapter (HDMI, component or RGB out), and RGB out. Plus, with RGB out, you may be giving up the ability to output 480p?


Plus Famicom has ultra short controller wires. Seriously annoying. Extensions are an absolute must.

[Joelepain]

For the Gamecube, if your intention is to stick to 240p/480i RGB, don't forget that PAL Gamecube already output RGB natively through the old Av-Output.
Image comparison show very little, if not zero, difference with the component output.
The power supply can be use with consoles of any region yes (but don't use an american/japanese power supply in the UK, obviously, I don't think they are multi-voltage).
If you can run homebrew on your PAL gamecube, you can use it to launch NTSC games.

[Joelepain]

For the N64 there are the UltraHDMI v2 and the N64Digital (to be release soon) that add analog RGB to the classic av-out of the console.
They are more expensive than the mod that you talked about, but they add Hdmi too and some other features, if you want some future proofing.

[Guspaz]

I'd say that there's a quality improvement from the PAL RGB cube to gcvideo analog output, even at 480i, but it's subtle. The problem is that OP wants to play NTSC games, and while you can do that on a PAL cube without making it more annoying to load games (via disc swapping and slower startups), you need a modchip.

[Joelepain]

Yes that's very likely. I was only speaking about the comparison between official RGB vs Official component.
And sure it is more annoying to launch NTSC games via modship or homebrew VS the native console, but he was speaking about GBI so I assumed he already does it (or intends to do it)

[MrMFretwell]

If you're RGB modding the NES, it doesn't matter what model it is, as far as video quality is concerned. If you don't like the front-loader (even with the blinking light win), then get a top-loader NES. Why mess around with the Famicom if you're primarily going to play NES cartridges? I can't see any advantage for a famicom AV over a toploader NES if they're RGB modded. They even share the same visual design. The Famicom AV has less of a low-pass filter, but that doesn't equate the better quality, since it also means that less pleasant high frequency stuff gets through.

The GCHD MKII can output RGB, so you can use SCART cables with it if you want. There's no image quality advantage (the GameCube is natively internally using chroma subsampled YCbCr anyhow, IIRC), but you can avoid the need for a separate conversion step if your whole setup is RGB SCART.

Perhaps this is where I got mixed up with the GameCube, I must have read YCbCR and not YPbPr, which is component video of course. Thanks for the input - as for the NES, I'm interested into looking into Famicom/Disk System stuff, interesting that the high frequency noise might get through with a Famicom AV, I'll give it some thought. Many thanks.

If Gamecube component is an option for you, by all means use it. There is ZERO difference in video quality between official YPrPb cables, GCVideo/Open Source adapter (HDMI, component or RGB out), and RGB out. Plus, with RGB out, you may be giving up the ability to output 480p?

Plus Famicom has ultra short controller wires. Seriously annoying. Extensions are an absolute must.

I can use pretty much any format because I've got the Extron Crosspoint, I thought I was sure that you could only do 480p over component and not SCART, whereas with the PS2 it is the other way around. Thanks for your input.

For the Gamecube, if your intention is to stick to 240p/480i RGB, don't forget that PAL Gamecube already output RGB natively through the old Av-Output.
Image comparison show very little, if not zero, difference with the component output.
The power supply can be use with consoles of any region yes (but don't use an american/japanese power supply in the UK, obviously, I don't think they are multi-voltage).
If you can run homebrew on your PAL gamecube, you can use it to launch NTSC games.

I'm looking to get progressive scan where possible as as far as I know some PAL games only do 50Hz which is a real dealbreaker. I do run homebrew Swiss already for the GameBoy interface, its primarily what I use the PAL Cube for at the moment.

For the N64 there are the UltraHDMI v2 and the N64Digital (to be release soon) that add analog RGB to the classic av-out of the console.
They are more expensive than the mod that you talked about, but they add Hdmi too and some other features, if you want some future proofing.

I didn't know about these, I'll do some digging around, this might be a good solution for me.

I'd say that there's a quality improvement from the PAL RGB cube to gcvideo analog output, even at 480i, but it's subtle. The problem is that OP wants to play NTSC games, and while you can do that on a PAL cube without making it more annoying to load games (via disc swapping and slower startups), you need a modchip.

Yeah I'd rather avoid this type of thing if possible with swapping discs. I'm considering using the PAL Cube as a GameBoy exclusive setup, but if I'm loosing quality on GameBoy when using it then I'd consider an all in one setup on the NTSC Cube.

Yes that's very likely. I was only speaking about the comparison between official RGB vs Official component.
And sure it is more annoying to launch NTSC games via modship or homebrew VS the native console, but he was speaking about GBI so I assumed he already does it (or intends to do it)

I do already use Homebrew on the GameCube with Swiss.

Many thanks everyone, your input has been very helpful with me trying to decide what to do.

[Guspaz]

I can use pretty much any format because I've got the Extron Crosspoint, I thought I was sure that you could only do 480p over component and not SCART, whereas with the PS2 it is the other way around. Thanks for your input.

With a GCHD Mk II or equivalent product, it's 480p output for everything: HDMI, YPbPr, and RGB. The Nintendo component cables also support 480p. The cheapest good option for 480p output is the Carby, but that's digital-only, and Insurrection discontinued their analog component cable version. If you're using the RGB output of the PAL gamecube, either directly or converted to YPbPr via the HD Retrovision cables, that's limited to 240p and 480i.

For the PS2, component video works with 240p/480i/480p (and technically higher in some games). Over RGB, it outputs RGBS (separate sync) for 240p and 480i, and RGsB (sync-on-green) for 480p. If you want to use 480p over RGB, you need to make sure that all your downstream devices are compatible with sync-on-green. For example, some SCART switches can't handle it because they autoswitch on the cvbs (sync) line that is missing with RGsB, and some monitors/scalers may not support it. Component is definitely the simplest option, so I'd say you only need to worry about sync-on-green stuff if you need to integrate it into an otherwise RGB-only setup.

[kitty666cats]

If you’re using an Extron Crosspoint you could just throw some BNC cables together from some random old cables/some stuff from Console5 instead of buying numerous female SCART to BNC cables, probably save yourself a hefty chunk of change

[MrMFretwell]

I can use pretty much any format because I've got the Extron Crosspoint, I thought I was sure that you could only do 480p over component and not SCART, whereas with the PS2 it is the other way around. Thanks for your input.

With a GCHD Mk II or equivalent product, it's 480p output for everything: HDMI, YPbPr, and RGB. The Nintendo component cables also support 480p. The cheapest good option for 480p output is the Carby, but that's digital-only, and Insurrection discontinued their analog component cable version. If you're using the RGB output of the PAL gamecube, either directly or converted to YPbPr via the HD Retrovision cables, that's limited to 240p and 480i.

For the PS2, component video works with 240p/480i/480p (and technically higher in some games). Over RGB, it outputs RGBS (separate sync) for 240p and 480i, and RGsB (sync-on-green) for 480p. If you want to use 480p over RGB, you need to make sure that all your downstream devices are compatible with sync-on-green. For example, some SCART switches can't handle it because they autoswitch on the cvbs (sync) line that is missing with RGsB, and some monitors/scalers may not support it. Component is definitely the simplest option, so I'd say you only need to worry about sync-on-green stuff if you need to integrate it into an otherwise RGB-only setup.

Sounds like the GCHD Mk II would be ideal then, I should mention I'm also looking to ditch 50Hz in favor of 60Hz, I know some regions free mods/mod chips might be able to do this, but as far as I know some consoles have issues with this, while they get very close to 60Hz, they end up at 59. something and this can cause issues with certain equipment. Once I have a GCHD Mk II I can decide whether I want to go with Component or RGB, though in my setup Component Wii cables would probably be cheaper than effectively two cables with RGB (GC - RGB SCART CSYNC and SCART TO BNC). My setup isn't RGB only really, just what I've been using so far, but I'm open to Component if its better/easier for certain consoles with indistinguishable quality results.

Might look into a set of component cables for the PS2 as well then, if it avoids the Sync on Green stuff, I was looking into getting an OSSC for modern equipment and an Extron Rxi for CRT displays to deal with that but if component bypasses the need for that, I'd be foolish to go down that route. Probably still going to get an OSSC Pro at some point though, just for the option as I'm only running the Framemeister right now. I know the Framemeister has certain issues with specific types of content, and having VGA on the OSSC is nice.

If you’re using an Extron Crosspoint you could just throw some BNC cables together from some random old cables/some stuff from Console5 instead of buying numerous female SCART to BNC cables, probably save yourself a hefty chunk of change

I'm not experienced enough or have the time to make my own cables, I don't really do the DIY side of things, just the game playing/setup of consoles is really all I get time for, but many thanks for the suggestion, I might be able to find someone who is able to make these kind of cables for me cheaper than purchasing them.