PixelFX Morph

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anexanhume
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by anexanhume »

Woozle wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Unless the Morph will somehow allow passthrough AND upscaling at the same time I don't see how you're going to be using its component output at all.
The Morph has two outputs, HDMI and analog through a VGA connector. You can have the scaler output over HDMI and forward the unscaled video through the VGA connector. We can likely fit an optional line doubler for the analog output, then you can have the scaler output over hdmi and a line doubled picture over VGA.
Wow, that's actually even better featured than I had imagined. That would avoid needing to turn on the last display to toggle output modes (unless this is able to be toggled via remote).

The VGA output is not limited in resolution, correct? This is only independent output resolution of the HDMI output? So, the VGA output could feed a FW900 or 1920x1440 display?
Woozle
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Woozle »

anexanhume wrote:
Woozle wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Unless the Morph will somehow allow passthrough AND upscaling at the same time I don't see how you're going to be using its component output at all.
The Morph has two outputs, HDMI and analog through a VGA connector. You can have the scaler output over HDMI and forward the unscaled video through the VGA connector. We can likely fit an optional line doubler for the analog output, then you can have the scaler output over hdmi and a line doubled picture over VGA.
Wow, that's actually even better featured than I had imagined. That would avoid needing to turn on the last display to toggle output modes (unless this is able to be toggled via remote).

The VGA output is not limited in resolution, correct? This is only independent output resolution of the HDMI output? So, the VGA output could feed a FW900 or 1920x1440 display?
The VGA output is limited to 480p due to bandwidth of the DAC. A motivated individual could swap the DAC (a small QFP chip with no ground pad) with a higher bandwidth model but I’m not sure if they go up to 1920x1440.

As for control, the Morph supports CEC, basic IR remotes, and web control. The menu system is the same as the N64Digital, shown here https://twitter.com/pixelfxco/status/13 ... 35649?s=21
Last edited by Woozle on Tue May 04, 2021 2:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
anexanhume
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by anexanhume »

Woozle wrote:
anexanhume wrote:
Woozle wrote: The Morph has two outputs, HDMI and analog through a VGA connector. You can have the scaler output over HDMI and forward the unscaled video through the VGA connector. We can likely fit an optional line doubler for the analog output, then you can have the scaler output over hdmi and a line doubled picture over VGA.
Wow, that's actually even better featured than I had imagined. That would avoid needing to turn on the last display to toggle output modes (unless this is able to be toggled via remote).

The VGA output is not limited in resolution, correct? This is only independent output resolution of the HDMI output? So, the VGA output could feed a FW900 or 1920x1440 display?
The VGA output is limited to 480p due to bandwidth of the DAC. A motivated individual could swap the DAC with a higher bandwidth model but I’m not sure if they go up to 1920x1440.
Thanks. That seems unnecessary given HDMI->VGA should be able to handle that. It does leave me wondering what the best way to feed a PVM/BVM more than 480p would be though.

edit: I hope the DAC in question is not a BGA…
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

Oh, huge difference when you're not driving all of that simultaneously. Yeah there's definitely some ideal swiss cheese routing there, but it's going to take some planning.
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Guspaz
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Guspaz »

You'd be hard pressed to find an HDMI to VGA adapter that will do 1920x1440 either. Most top out at 1080p60.
anexanhume
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by anexanhume »

Guspaz wrote:You'd be hard pressed to find an HDMI to VGA adapter that will do 1920x1440 either. Most top out at 1080p60.
True. I’ve seen some success with similar adapters exceeding their spec going from DP to VGA though.
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NormalFish
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by NormalFish »

Any chance we might get a ballpark cost, now that the 5X is in reviewers hands, and both this and the OSSC Pro are on the horizon? We talking 300$? 500$? 800$?
Woozle
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Woozle »

NormalFish wrote:Any chance we might get a ballpark cost, now that the 5X is in reviewers hands, and both this and the OSSC Pro are on the horizon? We talking 300$? 500$? 800$?
Current plan is $350.
fernan1234
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

That'd be a great value for the price considering that in specs and features it's strictly richer than the RT5X.

Can't wait for it. The 5X will probably tide me over in the meantime but it hurts having to use SCART for RGB.
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NormalFish
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by NormalFish »

Woozle wrote:
NormalFish wrote:Any chance we might get a ballpark cost, now that the 5X is in reviewers hands, and both this and the OSSC Pro are on the horizon? We talking 300$? 500$? 800$?
Current plan is $350.
Jesus. Best of luck, I don't envy you folks trying to budget these projects these days. If you can manage though, that's an incredible value proposition.
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

$350usd would be an amazing bargain price point for such a robust set of features. Will you follow mikechi2's lead and ask Fudoh to test it?
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Josh128
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Josh128 »

$350 is acceptable for a device that can basically do almost everything that the 5X and GBS-C + a bit of OSSC Pro combined can do, if you can make that happen. I got a 5X coming to cover digital conversion, but Im waiting to see which of these next devices, if either, can do 240p120 frame doubling with motion interpolation over VGA out. Whichever can do it with the least amount of fuss will get my money. Having analog out built right in the box is a very strong start for the Morph.
Jefferson
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Jefferson »

Woozle wrote:
NormalFish wrote:Any chance we might get a ballpark cost, now that the 5X is in reviewers hands, and both this and the OSSC Pro are on the horizon? We talking 300$? 500$? 800$?
Current plan is $350.
That is awesome. Can you share anything about when it will be released? 2021?
Woozle
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Woozle »

orange808 wrote:$350usd would be an amazing bargain price point for such a robust set of features. Will you follow mikechi2's lead and ask Fudoh to test it?
Already did :)
Josh128 wrote:$350 is acceptable for a device that can basically do almost everything that the 5X and GBS-C + a bit of OSSC Pro combined can do.
Not just a bit and if anything it's the other way around. The Morph's custom scaler is more capable than the Intel Scaler IP currently being used in the OSSC Pro, it has Composite/S-Video support, a built-in DAC, and a very capable wifi system processor.
Jefferson wrote:That is awesome. Can you share anything about when it will be released? 2021?
Chip shortages complicate things but we're doing everything we can to get it out the door by the end of 2021.
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Josh128
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Josh128 »

Not just a bit and if anything it's the other way around. The Morph's custom scaler is more capable than the Intel Scaler IP currently being used in the OSSC Pro, it has Composite/S-Video support, a built-in DAC, and a very capable wifi system processor.
It sounds like you just threw down the gauntlet. Lets get it on! :mrgreen:
SuperSpongo
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by SuperSpongo »

Them's fightin' words! :D
I'm really excited for the Morph, the built-in DAC is so cool!
anexanhume
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by anexanhume »

Woozle wrote:
orange808 wrote:$350usd would be an amazing bargain price point for such a robust set of features. Will you follow mikechi2's lead and ask Fudoh to test it?
Already did :)
Josh128 wrote:$350 is acceptable for a device that can basically do almost everything that the 5X and GBS-C + a bit of OSSC Pro combined can do.
Not just a bit and if anything it's the other way around. The Morph's custom scaler is more capable than the Intel Scaler IP currently being used in the OSSC Pro, it has Composite/S-Video support, a built-in DAC, and a very capable wifi system processor.
Jefferson wrote:That is awesome. Can you share anything about when it will be released? 2021?
Chip shortages complicate things but we're doing everything we can to get it out the door by the end of 2021.
Oof, gonna be a tough wait.

Is the DAC in question BGA? Sounds like a fun mod to try and change it.
Woozle
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Woozle »

anexanhume wrote:Is the DAC in question BGA? Sounds like a fun mod to try and change it.
The package is 48-LQFP, not too hard to swap.
arrghus8
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by arrghus8 »

How will the scaler handle resolution switches on the HDMI input? In particular, I'm thinking of GCVideo users with a handful of GameCube games that have brief signal dropouts over HDMI. Either way, very excited for this.
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matt
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by matt »

Guspaz wrote:You'd be hard pressed to find an HDMI to VGA adapter that will do 1920x1440 either. Most top out at 1080p60.
On paper this is true, but many will exceed their listed specs in practice. I picked one up from Walmart a couple of months ago (it's just their generic store brand) that works fine with 1920x1440x60. That's close to the max spec of my monitor so I'm not sure what its upper limit is.

It's pretty hit or miss though, I probably just got lucky with that unit.
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HDgaming42
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Feature Requests

Post by HDgaming42 »

This is looking to be truly amazing--based soley on what's been announced to date!

A few feature requestsI hope you can speak to:

1. Can profiles for use on HD CRTs like the Sony Super Fine Pitch (1440x1080i) and Hi-Scan (853x1080i) be included?

I think there's some wizardy involved in maximizing the lowest latency, native/most compatible resolution for these sets. Some people have calculated custom resolutions to provide via PC, but I could never get the hang of correctly calcuating pixel clocks.

I've tried feeding different scaled resolutions to a SFP set before via a DVDO Edge and an Extron 301HD with limited success. Lots of dropouts.

2. Can the unit store a Look Up Table (LUT)?

Perhaps multiple LUTs, selectable via a menu? I pitched this for the OSSC Pro but there didn't seem to be much interest in something not central to gaming. Your project appears to be more broad. The cheapest way to get an external LUT for a display right now is with a black magic mini converter, but that requires a hop to SDI first at additional cost/strict standards compatibility. These also only provide a 33pt LUT, whereas older units like the eeColor can do 65pt, but suffer other issues (like only being able to apply LUTs to 720p, 1080i/p).

You will sell units based on robust LUT support alone!

3. Could you provide a pattern generator?

Not only for basic calibrations, but also to generate color swatches for aiding in LUT creation?
Not sure if there'd be a way to integrate with DisplayCAL as a pattern generator--maybe over WiFi the same way you can use Resolve as a pattern generator on the same network? DisplayCAL is free to use, and automated. If you could load up a "SNES palette" in DisplayCAL for instance, and then let it run through the appropriate patches, prompting the PixelFX Morph to change the patch after being read you would have the world's first video-game centric automated colour calibration device.

I know these suggestions might stray far beyond the original intentions for the device, but I've never seen such an ambitious proposal for a consumer-priced scaler. Hoping you can speak to these ideas, their feasibility, and the likelihood you could devote resources to their integration. Thanks!
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Josh128
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Josh128 »

Woozle wrote: The VGA output is limited to 480p due to bandwidth of the DAC. A motivated individual could swap the DAC (a small QFP chip with no ground pad) with a higher bandwidth model but I’m not sure if they go up to 1920x1440.

As for control, the Morph supports CEC, basic IR remotes, and web control. The menu system is the same as the N64Digital, shown here https://twitter.com/pixelfxco/status/13 ... 35649?s=21
So 480p / 31KHz. So 240p120 scan doubling should also be possible, correct? What about the kind of motion interpolation Marqs was talking about in the OSSC Pro thread to complement it? Could you also do that?
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Greg2600
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Greg2600 »

Interested to see this one develop.
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Jojjelito
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Jojjelito »

With an interest both in retro gaming and in Laserdisc I’m looking forward to this. Which audio inputs will it have - analog only, or will it support SPDIF also? It would be nice to pack LD surround, or SPDIF from PS1/2 or OG Xbox in the HDMI output!
DfknG
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by DfknG »

I'm a real pleb when it comes to the technical side of things but looking at what this is offering, and what i'm interpreting this is what i'm excited about.
I have all the HDMI solutions that have been released, I am hoping this device will let me feed everything through HDMI and then just break out the analogue signal once for all connected systems.
I don't yet have decent quality analogue cables for each system so this will save me a tonne! It also saves me on needing an analogue switcher as well.
Feeding everything through a HDMI matrix and breaking out the analogue switcher in the last mile for me is very appealing!
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

DfknG wrote:I'm a real pleb when it comes to the technical side of things but looking at what this is offering, and what i'm interpreting this is what i'm excited about.
I have all the HDMI solutions that have been released, I am hoping this device will let me feed everything through HDMI and then just break out the analogue signal once for all connected systems.
I don't yet have decent quality analogue cables for each system so this will save me a tonne! It also saves me on needing an analogue switcher as well.
Feeding everything through a HDMI matrix and breaking out the analogue switcher in the last mile for me is very appealing!
It's got an HDMI input, so no need to convert to analog at the end.
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anexanhume
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by anexanhume »

bobrocks95 wrote:
DfknG wrote:I'm a real pleb when it comes to the technical side of things but looking at what this is offering, and what i'm interpreting this is what i'm excited about.
I have all the HDMI solutions that have been released, I am hoping this device will let me feed everything through HDMI and then just break out the analogue signal once for all connected systems.
I don't yet have decent quality analogue cables for each system so this will save me a tonne! It also saves me on needing an analogue switcher as well.
Feeding everything through a HDMI matrix and breaking out the analogue switcher in the last mile for me is very appealing!
It's got an HDMI input, so no need to convert to analog at the end.
I think they are talking about HDMI converted consoles into a switch, and then the Morph, with the analog out to an analog display. This would avoid the need for specific analog cables for each system into an analog switch.
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HDgaming42
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Re: Feature Requests

Post by HDgaming42 »

HDgaming42 wrote: 2. Can the unit store a Look Up Table (LUT)?

Perhaps multiple LUTs, selectable via a menu? I pitched this for the OSSC Pro but there didn't seem to be much interest in something not central to gaming. Your project appears to be more broad. The cheapest way to get an external LUT for a display right now is with a black magic mini converter, but that requires a hop to SDI first at additional cost/strict standards compatibility. These also only provide a 33pt LUT, whereas older units like the eeColor can do 65pt, but suffer other issues (like only being able to apply LUTs to 720p, 1080i/p).

You will sell units based on robust LUT support alone!
I'll add that LUTs might be a fantastic way to address consoles that have been RGB modded (NES operates in YUV, TG16 appears to have nonlinearity in it's RGB to composite encoding). LUTs can be more than simply corrective as well--they can be stylistic too!

If I get some time this weekend I'll try to (re)integrate my eeColor into the mix. Trouble is it only takes HDMI in and out, and only standard 720p/1080i. Pretty picky about the OSSC, which I no longer own. I'll see if it plays nice with the GBS-C, and the convoluted chain it will take to get it back out to a PVM...
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Guspaz
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Guspaz »

The problem with using a LUT for NES palettes is that you must have a known fixed source pallet to transform it to the target, at which point you might as well just load the target palette directly onto the NESRGB in the first place.
fernan1234
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

Yeah, for the PC Engine the RGB -> YUV table is known now, which is why you can get accurate results like with the MiSTer TG16 core. But that's not the case with the NES, which is why there is still such a jungle of RGB palettes for it. The only way to get the "real" colors is by cloning the actual NES PPU, like what Kevtris did with the Nt Mini that can thus output the "real" colors via S-video, which can then be processed by a scaler much more nicely than composite.
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