PixelFX Morph

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Strider77
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Strider77 »

Will the morph allow for screen rotation in a horizontal screen like the OSSC Pro? Tate in Yoko in other words.
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gac200
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by gac200 »

With the HDMI input, would it be possible to allow 3D input/output (frame-packed, side-by-side etc.)? A few PS3 and 360 games are 3D and it would be nice to play them as such with this device.

Would it also be possible to implement connectivity to active-shutter 3D glasses emitters to enable viewing of 3D content on a non-3D tv like the HDFury 3DFury or Edison 3D? I understand that may have a very low chance of being implemented.

And also, would audio codecs (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.) be able to be passed through the HDMI or SPDIF output?
H6rdc0re
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by H6rdc0re »

With the RetroTink 5x Pro now testing with 2560x1440@60Hz and 3840x2160@30Hz. Will the PixelFX Morph also be able support these resolutions? I understand it will probably mean overclocking and pushing the chips out of spec to be able to do so. I would also like to know if a Sinden Lightgun border will be supported or added.
notsonic
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by notsonic »

I really hope that hdmi 1280x720 2x to 2560x1440 is an option.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

Wonder if summer is still the plan for launching this thing, I'd hate to see it slip to 2023 in a worst case scenario.
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ldeveraux
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by ldeveraux »

I gave up waiting on this and just bought the rt5x.
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Josh128
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Josh128 »

At this rate, Mike will have the RT4K Pro out before this or the OSSC Pro get released. Why is he able to work such miracles while these other devs seem to have hit a wall?
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

Josh128 wrote:At this rate, Mike will have the RT4K Pro out before this or the OSSC Pro get released. Why is he able to work such miracles while these other devs seem to have hit a wall?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The OSSC Pro is a hobby project and I see no evidence it has "hit a wall". :mrgreen:
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VEGETA
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by VEGETA »

Josh128 wrote:At this rate, Mike will have the RT4K Pro out before this or the OSSC Pro get released. Why is he able to work such miracles while these other devs seem to have hit a wall?
the 5x is very good for sure and a 4k version will add up to that but still going to be very pricey. don't expect it to be less than 500$. it will use the exact same software as the previous 5x but with bigger fpga, unless it really has more. so unless you just want 4k, you don't need to get the 5x 4k version.

however, morph and ossc pro claim to have all 5x features plus more. so it should be better but still more pricey. you need to check that all and decide. 5x is always easiest to use and uses regular connections such as scart. however, morph uses bnc and you would need converters. ossc pro don't have s-vide and cvbs... etc.

you have to check that all before deciding. comparing 5x 4k to those projects is just wrong since it is already done just bigger fpga but the other projects are from start up.

anyway, any news on this?
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kitty666cats
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by kitty666cats »

I’d call the DE-10 Nano GPIO OSSC Pro Lite a good sign that it’s coming extremely soon.

But yeah, hearing an update on the Morph would be cool! It’s probably the most interesting game processor to me out of the “big three”, especially their processing of CV & Y/C. If the Morph is particularly useful for VHS and Laserdisc then that’ll be real nice
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

The Morph presumably having more full-time dev resources available is what I figured would give it an edge. Mike is great at cranking updates out but has no intention of quitting his day job or anything. The OSSC being open source is great, but github only shows 6 significant contributors, one of whom only did translation work, so it was mostly restricted by what marqs had time to crank out. With the feature sets available I don't think any of the 3 new ones will be a bad choice of course.
Josh128 wrote:At this rate, Mike will have the RT4K Pro out before this or the OSSC Pro get released. Why is he able to work such miracles while these other devs seem to have hit a wall?
I think if the parts shortage hadn't been as bad they'd both be out by now. I know Mike had to do some significant redesign I believe right after the first batch to work around parts shortages- maybe he got lucky with parts choices, maybe the FPGA on the 5x is much more available and that's not something the OSSC Pro or Morph can really replace in a redesign?
VEGETA wrote:5x is always easiest to use and uses regular connections such as scart. however, morph uses bnc and you would need converters. ossc pro don't have s-vide and cvbs... etc.
I think the 5x will probably remain the most user-friendly and simple to use for the foreseeable future. The Infinity Switch could give the Morph the edge even on that though, but I expect a lot more customizability, which in turn does mean complexity.

For inputs though it's just completely impossible to please everyone. You say "regular connections such as scart" and I dunno if I got a 5x the first thing I'd do is make that 3D printed vertical stand that converts the SCART connector into a D-Sub connector, because I haven't owned a SCART cable in years. BNC is slightly inconvenient even personally, but I can buy a cable for it and live with it. Impossible to please everyone because even if you put every connector on there then you're going to get complaints that it's too big, or now it's too expensive, or someone's going to want 2 of some input/output so they can get rid of a splitter.
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strayan
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by strayan »

bobrocks95 wrote:if I got a 5x the first thing I'd do is make that 3D printed vertical stand that converts the SCART connector into a D-Sub connector,
This is what I use: https://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=2 ... how_detail
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

strayan wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:if I got a 5x the first thing I'd do is make that 3D printed vertical stand that converts the SCART connector into a D-Sub connector,
This is what I use: https://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=2 ... how_detail
Here's the one I'm talking about, the final product looks very clean- https://github.com/jeffqchen/RetroTINK-5X-SCART-Dock

Plenty of options either way. Point is some significant number of people are always going to need an adapter unless you include every port under the sun and make the footprint huge. (Maybe this wouldn't have happened if SCART was good to begin with :P)
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fernan1234
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

bobrocks95 wrote:Here's the one I'm talking about, the final product looks very clean- https://github.com/jeffqchen/RetroTINK-5X-SCART-Dock
This is really cool! Also like the BNC version.

Do both the D-Sub and BNC versions bring down TTL down to video level as the 5X's SCART input requires?

All my stuff is TTL as it goes through an Extron switch, but that's taken care of by an HD15-2-SCART. Would be good if this one can do it as well (though I'm guessing it misses the option to combine HV sync to C sync, but that's minor).
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VEGETA
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by VEGETA »

for me, regular connections are scart rgb, component and composite via the phono jacks and the s-video, as well as vga. having bnc is just bizarre.

I also suggest using din connectors for rgb instead of scarts, such as the frame meister since it is a firm connection and standarized as well as modern and known.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

VEGETA wrote:I also suggest using din connectors for rgb instead of scarts, such as the frame meister since it is a firm connection and standarized as well as modern and known.
Nah, let's not depend anymore on custom cables. Do you know what everyone knows? D-Sub aka VGA. Easiest cable and connector to find that can do everything.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

fernan1234 wrote:
bobrocks95 wrote:Here's the one I'm talking about, the final product looks very clean- https://github.com/jeffqchen/RetroTINK-5X-SCART-Dock
This is really cool! Also like the BNC version.

Do both the D-Sub and BNC versions bring down TTL down to video level as the 5X's SCART input requires?

All my stuff is TTL as it goes through an Extron switch, but that's taken care of by an HD15-2-SCART. Would be good if this one can do it as well (though I'm guessing it misses the option to combine HV sync to C sync, but that's minor).
I think both versions expect RGBS, the BNC definitely only has one sync connector, and the DSub version doesn't have any components that would combine sync, and he mentions it's meant to be used with his console VGA dongles that provide RGBS already.

Both have sync attenuation built in though, with an optional jumper to bypass it if your cables happen to already be attenuated for 75 ohm!
fernan1234 wrote:
VEGETA wrote:I also suggest using din connectors for rgb instead of scarts, such as the frame meister since it is a firm connection and standarized as well as modern and known.
Nah, let's not depend anymore on custom cables. Do you know what everyone knows? D-Sub aka VGA. Easiest cable and connector to find that can do everything.
I agree, DIN is a god awful choice. 95%+ of the userbase would need probably multiple custom adapters.

I wish they'd kept a DSub connector but if it was only that, composite, S-Video, and component sources would all need adapters. Only having the one analog input kind of sucks, but I want to buy their switch anyways.


BNC is a bit odd, but I understand their reasoning. BNC to RCA adapters are very cheap, to the point where I think they should throw 5 in included with the Morph. Then everybody gets their composite and component out of the box.

S-Video seems like the weak point, I'm not really seeing female S-Video to Male RCA or BNC cables anywhere. Adding one S-Video DIN wouldn't hurt their footprint much either. I'm not sure what they're recommending there for non-switch users.

DSub users can get VGA to BNC cables from lots of places so we're good.

SCART would make the Morph quite a bit bigger if a port was added. There are multiple options for SCART to BNC but I think they're all from custom places like Retro Access and Retro Gaming Cables. Not super ideal but there's plenty available on the market from professional monitor usage, and they're available from the same places people would be buying their modern SCART cables from anyways.

Like I said, impossible to please everyone.
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fernan1234
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

bobrocks95 wrote:Both have sync attenuation built in though, with an optional jumper to bypass it if your cables happen to already be attenuated for 75 ohm!
Good to know!

bobrocks95 wrote:S-Video seems like the weak point, I'm not really seeing female S-Video to Male RCA or BNC cables anywhere. Adding one S-Video DIN wouldn't hurt their footprint much either. I'm not sure what they're recommending there for non-switch users.

Do a search for "Y/C to BNC" and you should find several options without too much trouble. In the pro/BNC world s-video is often called Y/C.

At worst you may need a gender changer for s-video din, which are also easy to find.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

That brought up a few more results, but still lots of discontinued/out of stock pages. There's a few on Amazon or Aliexpress but I could see sourcing one being a bit difficult in the future. Then again people with Crosspoints have probably been able to find them easily enough so far.
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NewSchoolBoxer
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

orange808 wrote:
NewSchoolBoxer wrote: I can't think of a product has analog input and both HDMI and scaled analog output. Either no one thought of it or video encoding chip + output connectors are too much added cost. I want niche things too.
I imagine you meant to say "community hobby product".

Because, there are many video scalers that offer both analog and digital output. I don't have enough time to look up and make an exhaustive list of the already available video scalers that do it. It's a long list.

It's the expense and trouble of doing it. I imagine there could also a small concern about lawsuits? Sony and Disney (they are essentially the masters of the universe now) don't like people converting digital signals into DRM free analog. Firms in China may have an easier time operating in the grey area. Although, there's probably HDCP IP available to handle the problem--and it looks like the Morph may already implement the standards.
Can you list a few such scalers? There is no compilation of devices with their inputs and outputs. You'd be surprised how hard devices with scaled analog and digital outputs are to find on the internet. Fudoh's site probably review's them but site navigation takes me back to GeoCities (no offense). Picture on the homepage led me to find that the DVDO iScan VP30 offers scaled analog or digital outputs. No idea what the second device is:
Spoiler
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I noticed in Mouser/DigiKey listings for analog to HDMI converters that each device carries a unique identifier. Being traced that way is kind of a scary thought.

My apologies for going off-topic.
bobrocks95 wrote:That brought up a few more results, but still lots of discontinued/out of stock pages. There's a few on Amazon or Aliexpress but I could see sourcing one being a bit difficult in the future. Then again people with Crosspoints have probably been able to find them easily enough so far.
S-Video to BNC adapters are fairly plentiful. No one calls S-Video "Y/C" on Amazon/eBay but sellers may incorrectly list as a "splitter". Just have to watch the BNC end being male or female since both exist. I bought a set to use with S-Video + audio ethernet balun to run S-Video 75 feet to my computer capture card. White is luma and red is chroma.

Gold plated RCA -> BNC 75 ohm adapters are super cheap.

I'm a BNC fan but if they really expect people to buy adapters, sales will suffer. They were smart enough to pay $5k/year + device royalties to the cartel for HDMI out versus using DVI-D or DisplayPort. I like how bundling a DVI -> HDMI adapter doesn't bypass cartel fees.

I'd like to see an option to add adapters to the purchase. No one going to complain to pay extra with no added shipping charge. Adds an additional revenue stream.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

I agree it would be nice if they (re)sold adapters themselves just to clear up confusion and get everything you need in one place. Like I said I think BNC to RCA terminators should even be included in the box. The average person should be able to plug in their stock composite cables for any old system and have it work reasonably well out of the box, I think that's a key part of the Retrotink 5x's success so far.

That said I found my VGA to 5 BNC cord last night so I'm all good on most of my sources.
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

NewSchoolBoxer wrote: Can you list a few such scalers?
Are you asking for individual analog or digital output options on one machine?

Or is it simultaneous analog and digital independent scaled outputs from a multiwindow, edge blending, or video wall machine?

I wouldn't personally bother trying to find a machine to get simultaneous output.

I get it. I understand the frustration.

There is no "all in one" holy grail video processor that will do everything in one unit. It's frustrating to need a convoluted matrix switch, stack of video processors, DACs, ADCs, color space processors, and sync processors to handle all the use cases and feed a variety of old and new displays simultaneously.

If you just need a video processor to output analog and handle already "line doubled" 240p video game signals, the DVDO Scan vp30, vp50, or vp50pro will do the job very well with frame lock and sub-frame latency. On the other hand, you might often get better results feeding your "line doubler" through a good DAC and directly into an analog display. I choose the DVDO because it is so fast, it has frame lock, and the deinterlacing isn't terrible. Not good for 480p or anything "HD". Needs line doubling. The chroma subsampling is very noticeable.

Someone linked the Extron DVS 605 in another thread. I don't own one. Looking at the specs, I think that might be a good one as well. It will be at least a frame of lag, though. The deinterlacing will suck. Should be 4:4:4. I might get one if they get cheap.
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H6rdc0re
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by H6rdc0re »

Wasn't this releasing this summer?
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

H6rdc0re wrote:Wasn't this releasing this summer?
Supposedly, but last word from PixelFX was I think January, and an FPGA shortage remains at the moment.
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NewSchoolBoxer
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

The PixelFX Morph road map link went offline but there is a copy and paste on the prominent German message board. I couldn't find what Xilinx FPGA it takes. If someone knows, can look for expected stock from official distributors.
orange808 wrote:
NewSchoolBoxer wrote: Can you list a few such scalers?
Are you asking for individual analog or digital output options on one machine?

Or is it simultaneous analog and digital independent scaled outputs from a multiwindow, edge blending, or video wall machine?

I wouldn't personally bother trying to find a machine to get simultaneous output.

I get it. I understand the frustration.

There is no "all in one" holy grail video processor that will do everything in one unit. It's frustrating to need a convoluted matrix switch, stack of video processors, DACs, ADCs, color space processors, and sync processors to handle all the use cases and feed a variety of old and new displays simultaneously.

If you just need a video processor to output analog and handle already "line doubled" 240p video game signals, the DVDO Scan vp30, vp50, or vp50pro will do the job very well with frame lock and sub-frame latency. On the other hand, you might often get better results feeding your "line doubler" through a good DAC and directly into an analog display. I choose the DVDO because it is so fast, it has frame lock, and the deinterlacing isn't terrible. Not good for 480p or anything "HD". Needs line doubling. The chroma subsampling is very noticeable.

Someone linked the Extron DVS 605 in another thread. I don't own one. Looking at the specs, I think that might be a good one as well. It will be at least a frame of lag, though. The deinterlacing will suck. Should be 4:4:4. I might get one if they get cheap.
Thank you, it's hard to discover what relevant electronics existed 10-20 years ago. Lesser issue is determining the various revisions from each other. I found the exact Plasma TV I was looking for that takes 240p/480i/480p RGB but the sound doesn't work and I'm not sure if the DVI-D card really exists.

I'd like 1 device instead of 2. Something that upscales 240p+480i RGB into 480p and something that converts most/all interlaced analog formats into 480i or 480p HDMI. 1-1.5 frames of lag is fine. I can tolerate Game Modes on Composite input. 4:4:4 nice but 4:2:2 good enough.

Do you know if DVDO iScan for $400 is an inflated buy-it-now scam price or fair enough if it works? I don't want to spend more than $250 on a device I'd use once or twice a month. Recent sold items:
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

NewSchoolBoxer wrote:The PixelFX Morph road map link went offline but there is a copy and paste on the prominent German message board. I couldn't find what Xilinx FPGA it takes. If someone knows, can look for expected stock from official distributors.
A Wayback archive version of the page doesn't mention what FPGA it is either. Mike blurs or otherwise hides the goods on RetroTink screenshots on twitter for the 4K prototype, so I'm assuming it's to avoid or at least slow down clone production. RT5X uses a Cyclone IV class chip from what I can find, OSSC Pro prototypes have been shown with a Cyclone V (forget what dev board you can demo with it now).
Thank you, it's hard to discover what relevant electronics existed 10-20 years ago. Lesser issue is determining the various revisions from each other. I found the exact Plasma TV I was looking for that takes 240p/480i/480p RGB but the sound doesn't work and I'm not sure if the DVI-D card really exists.
Doesn't happen to be one of Panasonic's professional plasmas with the TY-42TM6D input card does it?
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by NewSchoolBoxer »

I noticed Mike blur the chips. While amusing, I can't blame him when he got cloned by Kaico. Cool so stock of Cyclone V is what's holding back OSSC Pro. I see 5X is still in stock.

It's the consumer Panasonic TH-42PHD5. DVI board not named, all I got is:
Installation of the DVI interface requires removal of the HY/HZ Board and
replacing it with an optional DVI interface board.
Maybe it is the same thing? Thanks for the lead.

I calculated the 42" 16:9 to be 34" at 4:3 letterboxing but seems bigger in reality. I wanted a Plasma since they are from era with analog inputs and have similar technology to CRTs. Looking at the datasheet, it straight out says it takes RGB inputs and NTSC, PAL and SECAM. In fact, it took SNES 240p RGBS, PS2 480i RGBS and 480p sync on green over either the VGA input or BNC. BNC on consumer CRT, amazing.

You need the remote control to switch video modes. I bought one from a compatible model. The thing I dislike is no digital video inputs. I didn't realize Plasmas without HDMI or DVI-D existed.

I saw Sony made a Plasma line that accepts SD RGB as well based on datasheet information. Sorry I forget the model numbers.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

I'm seeing a TY-42TM4D for the 4 and 5 series (I have an 8 series EDTV, TH-42PWD8UK). Maybe the TM6D will work too. Apparently there's no additional slots though so it has to replace the component input? https://www.avsforum.com/threads/panaso ... rd.385922/

Mine has 3 slots for input cards available plus a permanent VGA port. DM me if you want any more info since we're pretty off topic at this point :)
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

NewSchoolBoxer wrote: I'd like 1 device instead of 2. Something that upscales 240p+480i RGB into 480p and something that converts most/all interlaced analog formats into 480i or 480p HDMI. 1-1.5 frames of lag is fine. I can tolerate Game Modes on Composite input. 4:4:4 nice but 4:2:2 good enough.
First, maybe try chaining the OSSC through a DAC and sending the signal directly to the plasma? You can configure the OSSC to "skip" deinterlacing and output 480i "directly" as 480p with alternating blank scanlines. That might be all you need on a plasma.
NewSchoolBoxer wrote: Do you know if DVDO iScan for $400 is an inflated buy-it-now scam price or fair enough if it works? I don't want to spend more than $250 on a device I'd use once or twice a month. Recent sold items:
Spoiler
Image
PSU negative center at 6V/6A is all kinds of wonky.
That's probably market value on DVDOs. Be careful with the iScan VP50pro. They run crazy hot. They are also very temperamental. I bet a lot of the ones out there for sale have issues. If you do find one, treat it with care. I disconnect the power entirely when I'm not using it (because standby still runs hot), I put it on top of the stack/rack, there is about six inches of empty air under the machine, and I have a three fan rack mount cooler machine sitting on top of the vp50pro (to keep it nice and cool). The rack mount fan on top of DVDO is blowing out into empty space on top of everything. It needs to breathe.

Maybe try the OSSC at 480p through a DAC first?? Maybe add a Koryuu for composite/svideo input?

I'll stop hijacking the thread now. Although, this does illustrate and highlight the need, market niche, and demand for new gaming video processors. Purchasing, managing, and maintaining "legacy" video gear to "hook it up right" is difficult, time consuming, and expensive.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

orange808 wrote:I'll stop hijacking the thread now. Although, this does illustrate and highlight the need, market niche, and demand for new gaming video processors. Purchasing, managing, and maintaining "legacy" video gear to "hook it up right" is difficult, time consuming, and expensive.
I wonder how popular the analog output would have been if they'd kept it in. If you need simultaneous scaled+unscaled output I don't see why you wouldn't just split at the source, but clearly there's a demand for an all-in-one device that could do it.
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