PixelFX Morph

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Guspaz
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Guspaz »

I don't think that's true. For example, the TI LMH1251 that all YPbPr-to-RGB transcoders use is a fully analog transcoding chip. I'm not sure what chip is used in the opposite direction, though. EDIT: Confirmed by Mike that both directions are fully analog.
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

Fantastic to know. I want to replace as much vintage equipment as possible in the near future.
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VEGETA
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by VEGETA »

Guspaz wrote:I don't think that's true. For example, the TI LMH1251 that all YPbPr-to-RGB transcoders use is a fully analog transcoding chip. I'm not sure what chip is used in the opposite direction, though. EDIT: Confirmed by Mike that both directions are fully analog.
yes rgb to ypbpr and vice versa is all analog, even to s-video and composite. rgb to ypbpr is made by op-amp circuit which depends on op-amp chosen based on bandwidth.

I didn't see LMH1251 before this but you can use a suitable op-amp to do ypbpr to rgb... since it is just matrix operations from one side to the other... opamp uses resistor with its configurations to be able to do the proper calculation and output. LMH1251 seems to have all opamp circuitry inside, i didn't check but this seems the way.
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vrunk11
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by vrunk11 »

VEGETA wrote: yes rgb to ypbpr and vice versa is all analog, even to s-video and composite. rgb to ypbpr is made by op-amp circuit which depends on op-amp chosen based on bandwidth.

I didn't see LMH1251 before this but you can use a suitable op-amp to do ypbpr to rgb... since it is just matrix operations from one side to the other... opamp uses resistor with its configurations to be able to do the proper calculation and output. LMH1251 seems to have all opamp circuitry inside, i didn't check but this seems the way.
So if its just color matrix conversion there isn't a real improvement in the signal?
And for composite or Y/C input I suppose there is another analog chip

and if all the processing is analog for the RGB out, that means for having HDMI and RGB at the same time the signal must be splited (it introduce reduction of the signal strength) or being sampled digitally for having 2 identical copy but then it isn't full analog

And it made me think, if the chain is all analog there isn't any tbc cause all tbc are digital iirc ? (for rgb out)
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Josh128
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Josh128 »

vrunk11 wrote:
VEGETA wrote:
that means for having HDMI and RGB at the same time the signal must be splited (it introduce reduction of the signal strength)
This is not true as the analog signal can easily be amplified before or after being split to avoid reduction of signal strength in the output. It could also be switched to only allow for 1 output at a time to be active and that would also resolve the issue of reduction of signal strength. Its all in how a particular unit is designed.
energizerfellow‌
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by energizerfellow‌ »

Any plans for YC or even YPbPr over SCART? S-video over SCART is part of the official EN 50049-1:1997 spec and looks to be used by things like PAL S-VHS decks? Component over SCART wasn't official, but looks to have been a de facto casual spec that a some later hardware supported?
fernan1234 wrote: What we can know is that many professional monitors including Sony made ones used P-22 phosphors up to the 1990s at least, while there were also EBU ones later on as well mainly on non-Sony monitors like Victor/JVC and Ikegami, but a few older Sony ones as well. Sony as the industry leader itself switched to SMPTE-C for pro monitors sold in Japan in the mid/late 1990s up to their last CRTs in the mid 2000s.
edit: not so sure about the chronology here, it does look like there were times when these and other phosphor types co-existed in the Japanese market.
Looking at some random tube part numbers, it looks like Japan may indeed have been P22 land consumer-side, at least until HDTV CRTs arrived? Pro-side, PVMs were P22 up until HDTV development started, then the PVM/BVM manufacturers started putting in SMPTE C tubes in all the pro monitors with some being EBU?

https://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/CRT_designation_systems
https://forums.libretro.com/t/new-crt-shader-from-guest-crt-guest-advanced-updates/25444
https://forums.libretro.com/t/dogways-grading-shader-slang/27148

Over in more modern BT.709 land, looking like BT.1886 is the way to go according to the SpectraCal guys:
https://kb.portrait.com/help/bt-1886-10-questions-10-answers

Given how many people are using PC monitors vs TVs, I assume being able to switch the output side between PC sRGB and TV BT.709 w/ BT.1886 would be the way to go?
fernan1234 wrote: This whole idea sounded funny to think about for a moment, but then I realized how much gaming and streaming is growing, and although retro is a small subset of that, it's actually not inconceivable that there can be a large enough professional space for it at some point down the road.
Not only that, but the video archival guys as well. TBCs and proc amps are a big deal in this space with desirable legacy models getting rare and expensive (check Ebay prices on a AVT-8710 or TBC-1000 and prepare to laugh/cry...). Ensemble Designs' BrightEye series, specifically models like the BrightEye 75, see to be the go-to in this space if you're doing pro-level work, but prices are impressive, like up in the $1400 range.

https://www.ensembledesigns.com/products/brighteye/be75
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... gital.html
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

energizerfellow‌ wrote:Looking at some random tube part numbers, it looks like Japan may indeed have been P22 land consumer-side, at least until HDTV CRTs arrived? Pro-side, PVMs were P22 up until HDTV development started, then the PVM/BVM manufacturers started putting in SMPTE C tubes in all the pro monitors with some being EBU?
Not just on the consumer side, but also on the work and professional areas as well. It looks like most PC monitors for office use up to the end of mass usage of CRTs used P-22 phosphors, and even some late professional grade monitors that used Diamontron tubes also used P-22 phosphors. Sony offering SMPTE-C and EBU emulation on their post-CRT monitors seems to be simply a result of them having used those for their later pro CRTs and thus maintaining continuity for their professional customers.

energizerfellow‌ wrote:Given how many people are using PC monitors vs TVs, I assume being able to switch the output side between PC sRGB and TV BT.709 w/ BT.1886 would be the way to go?
BT.1886 is a good choice for consistency, and it does approximate CRT gamma more than others. Non-CRT Sony pro monitors (at least the BVM line from the old L-series up to the E251/E171, not sure about the X300) did offer an actual "CRT gamma" emulation along with the HD gamma options that include BT.1886. I wonder if it would be possible to calculate the curve that Sony is using on those and port it to a device like the Morph.
energizerfellow‌ wrote:Not only that, but the video archival guys as well. TBCs and proc amps are a big deal in this space with desirable legacy models getting rare and expensive (check Ebay prices on a AVT-8710 or TBC-1000 and prepare to laugh/cry...). Ensemble Designs' BrightEye series, specifically models like the BrightEye 75, see to be the go-to in this space if you're doing pro-level work, but prices are impressive, like up in the $1400 range.
That's interesting. I think there can definitely be space for a PixelFX Morph (literally) Pro.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by energizerfellow‌ »

fernan1234 wrote:It looks like most PC monitors for office use up to the end of mass usage of CRTs used P-22 phosphors, and even some late professional grade monitors that used Diamontron tubes also used P-22 phosphors.
That may explain why Mitsubishi Diamondtron monitors seemed so popular with game studios back in the day, along with the occasional NEC Cromaclear or EIZO. Smaller JVC/Panasonic consumer TVs sitting next to those Mitsubishi monitors seemed pretty common too, probably to get a consumer shadow mask reference I'd imagine.
fernan1234 wrote:BT.1886 is a good choice for consistency, and it does approximate CRT gamma more than others. Non-CRT Sony pro monitors (at least the BVM line from the old L-series up to the E251/E171, not sure about the X300) did offer an actual "CRT gamma" emulation along with the HD gamma options that include BT.1886. I wonder if it would be possible to calculate the curve that Sony is using on those and port it to a device like the Morph.
Reverse engineering that would be pretty cool. On a related note, I stumbled across Reconsideration of CRT Monitor Characteristics, which Sony put out back when sRGB was then-new. Given the variances in P22 and the contemporaneous tube technology notes in EBU Tech 3213, it would seem that EBU and P22/B22 may have been effectively interchangeable back in the day? A number of vintage color tools seem to use "P22-EBU" as one word, which is interesting. BT.709, sRGB, and PAL BT.601 all use the same primaries too (with subtle change in green for 601).
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HDgaming42
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by HDgaming42 »

You know what else you could do with a LUT? Create a "night mode" where you strip out specific frequencies of blue/green so you can game all night and still reach deep sleep. BAMMO!!
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Gunstar
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Gunstar »

HDgaming42 wrote:You know what else you could do with a LUT? Create a "night mode" where you strip out specific frequencies of blue/green so you can game all night and still reach deep sleep. BAMMO!!
Seconding this idea!
H6rdc0re
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by H6rdc0re »

Will the Pixel FX Morph support 1920x1080p @100/120Hz like the OSSC Pro? This would be a killer feature for LG CX/GX and C1/G1 owners. Allowing for CRT like motion through OLED Motion Pro set to high.

How about ALLM and VRR support?

Will it be possible to scale through the HDMI output and passthrough on the D-Sub at the same time?

Can we still expect the Pixel FX Morph this year?
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Guspaz
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Guspaz »

Wouldn't that double-scan the image, to do BFI at 240Hz?
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

H6rdc0re wrote:Will it be possible to scale through the HDMI output and passthrough on the D-Sub at the same time?
Confirmed in a couple places by Woozle to do simultaneous analog passthrough and scaled digital output. Great for anyone playing on a CRT and streaming, though I wonder how big that audience is lol.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by H6rdc0re »

Guspaz wrote:Wouldn't that double-scan the image, to do BFI at 240Hz?
The output signal should be 100/120Hz and the TV will do the rest.
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Guspaz
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Guspaz »

A TV given a 120Hz signal and told to do BFI will essentially operate at 240Hz, showing 120 image frames and 120 black frames. Assuming we're talking about a 60Hz input signal (from retro consoles, none of which normally output 120Hz), you will get this:

Output frame 1: Input frame A
Output frame 2: Black
Output frame 3: Input frame A
Output frame 4: Black
Output frame 5: Input frame B
Output frame 6: Black
Output frame 7: Input frame B
Output frame 8: Black
etc.

This will not work for improving motion clarity.
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Greg2600
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Greg2600 »

So this device is NOT going to be approx. $50 more than Retrotink 5x-pro as "planned?"
energizerfellow‌
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by energizerfellow‌ »

In other color fun, it looks like EBU Tech 3325 Annex 1 may be a more accurate approximation of CRT gamma on modern displays than BT.1886 if you're adjusting for a known non-zero black level, per a discussion I ran across.

As for any displays that were SMPTE-C phosphors instead of P22/EBU, SMPTE-C seems to have only existed in the land of broadcast and color grading monitors (P22 phosphors are functionally identical to EBU Tech 3213 "EBU" phosphors?). For Sony's own in-house stuff, only BVM, 800 TVL PVM (L5/L4/M4), and the GDM-FW900 PC monitor seem to have had SMPTE-C glass in it. Sony branded these as "HR" tubes, apparently. Not sure about other manufacturers, but I'd imagine things to be similar.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by dandiego »

Greg2600 wrote:So this device is NOT going to be approx. $50 more than Retrotink 5x-pro as "planned?"
Did you hear otherwise?
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orange808
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by orange808 »

Guspaz wrote:A TV given a 120Hz signal and told to do BFI will essentially operate at 240Hz, showing 120 image frames and 120 black frames. Assuming we're talking about a 60Hz input signal (from retro consoles, none of which normally output 120Hz), you will get this:

Output frame 1: Input frame A
Output frame 2: Black
Output frame 3: Input frame A
Output frame 4: Black
Output frame 5: Input frame B
Output frame 6: Black
Output frame 7: Input frame B
Output frame 8: Black
etc.

This will not work for improving motion clarity.
Agreed that it's a bad idea. It would still have an effect, though. Despite the odd flickering cadence, it should still decrease persistence.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

dandiego wrote:
Greg2600 wrote:So this device is NOT going to be approx. $50 more than Retrotink 5x-pro as "planned?"
Did you hear otherwise?
I was pleasantly surprised by that price when it was first revealed, so I wouldn't be too shocked if it ended up a bit pricier. Anything around $400 sounds like a great value in my opinion, and as all 3 next gen scalers continue software development they'll only continue to get better.

I have also not seen any updates on price since Woozle's initial estimate of $350.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

Are there any other currently available and relatively cheap options available for rotation to pair with an OSSC? I don't think the RT5X offers rotation features at the moment, and not sure if mike plans to add it.

I'm hoping for more of a temporary solution for tate games until the Morph is out, since it seems like it'll be the first to offer the feature on the newer scalers.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Fudoh »

Are there any other currently available and relatively cheap options available for rotation to pair with an OSSC?
for the longest time you have been able to pick up an Aurora Dido Jr. on eBay for something like $50. Right now I don't see any, but still probably makes sense to keep your eyes open for one. Quite solid processor that's usually available to next to nothing.
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bobrocks95
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by bobrocks95 »

Fudoh wrote:
Are there any other currently available and relatively cheap options available for rotation to pair with an OSSC?
for the longest time you have been able to pick up an Aurora Dido Jr. on eBay for something like $50. Right now I don't see any, but still probably makes sense to keep your eyes open for one. Quite solid processor that's usually available to next to nothing.
Thanks Fudoh, I'll save a search, worst case scenario is I save my money and wait for OSSC Pro/Morph because nothing comes up. Found orange's thread and it does seem solid, other than maybe the framerate conversion.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by anexanhume »

Now that the Tink5X supports 540p out, is it safe to count on it for the Morph? Would love to output HDMI from my MiSTer and downconvert to 540p for my HD CRT.
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Odolwa
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by Odolwa »

How is this device the "spiritual successor to the Framemeister?"
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by darcagn »

Odolwa wrote:How is this device the "spiritual successor to the Framemeister?"
The Framemeister remained a popular second-hand purchase because, despite being discontinued and having serious market competition with the RT2X line and the OSSC, the Framemeister remained supreme for some due to its having a larger variety of inputs, great ease of use but tons of features available, a real scaler and not just line multiplication, great display output compatibility, etc.

The Morph seems designed to hit those check boxes to pick up some of the Framemeister holdouts. Of course the RT5x-Pro is great competition now too but doesn't quite meet all of the criteria in the way the Morph seems to.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by 1040STF »

Hi everyone. And hi Woozle.
I'm only starting to understand how scalers work, what are 15/31khz, and all that stuff.
So pardon me if my question seems obvious.

Would the PixelFX Morph handle :
- conversion from 480i (scart) to 480p (vga) ?
- 720p (component) to 480p (vga) ?
- 1440p (hdmi) to 480p (vga) ?

Could the VGA output handle 15Khz to output a 240p analog signal compatible with all public CRT TVs ?

Many thanks ! And whatever the answers, I can't wait for this scaler to release ^^
ldeveraux
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by ldeveraux »

darcagn wrote:
Odolwa wrote:How is this device the "spiritual successor to the Framemeister?"
The Framemeister remained a popular second-hand purchase because, despite being discontinued and having serious market competition with the RT2X line and the OSSC, the Framemeister remained supreme for some due to its having a larger variety of inputs, great ease of use but tons of features available, a real scaler and not just line multiplication, great display output compatibility, etc.

The Morph seems designed to hit those check boxes to pick up some of the Framemeister holdouts. Of course the RT5x-Pro is great competition now too but doesn't quite meet all of the criteria in the way the Morph seems to.
Yeah i think I'm most excited for this next gen device over the other 2
1040STF
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by 1040STF »

Hi there !

I'm kinda discovering the world of upscaling, the differences between i and p, between 15Khz and 31Khz, what it involves, etcetera. So pardon me if my question seems obvious.

Would the PixelFX Morph be able to convert a 480i signal (from scart) to 480p (vga) ? Without lag ?

Some late CRTs adding lag to 480i signal but not on 480p, that would be awesome - especially for PS2 games.
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Re: PixelFX Morph

Post by fernan1234 »

1040STF wrote:Would the PixelFX Morph be able to convert a 480i signal (from scart) to 480p (vga) ? Without lag ?
The OSSC has been able to do this for many years now, and also later the Retrotink products, if paired with an HDMI to VGA dongle, all done as lagless as can be with bob deinterlace which is the fastest deinterlacing method (add black alternating lines to make it look like 15khz). The Morph will surely offer the same, with the added convenience of an analogue output so you don't need a DAC.
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